Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

hi guys,

I'm finally getting to changing the engine in my ol 86. There are a few rebuilts on Ebay that have me thinking. Here is an example:

Engine 1

Engine 2

I've noticed the carb/intake/filter sit quite a bit higher, and both have those massive oil pans. I've read on here you can get motor mounts that drop the sitting height of the motor, but you all think either of these would fit?

The place I am dealing with can get me a brand new 330hp motor for $6000 and these being 1/2 the price I'm definately looking this way.

How about anyone elses ebay experiences with motors? I'm liking the warranty on one at 2 years but who knows what I'd have to do if something did go wrong and had to send it back.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I would advise contacting the seller, telling them what you're doing, and listen to both what they say and how they say it. If #1, for instance, says that engine as pictured will fit in your car fine, say thank you very much, and go somewhere else. You might want to note that the engine as being sold is not as dyno'd.

Read feedback and rating carefully. I notice one has responded to every negative feedback with the same comment - doesn't address the specifics of the deal. Not so good.

Lower engine mounts? I would hope not. Those kick-out oil pans don't belong on a street driven 3rd gen. I suppose if you did a tubular crossmember, custom exhaust, etc., you might get away with it, but that style pan really isn't needed. Go for a standard pan, and use standard 3rd gen exhaust routing (which those block hugger headers don't accommodate, by the way).

Legal Disaster

iTrader: (6)

If you go with a built engine from ebay, definately go with prestige, which is your number 2 option. They offer different packages and would build it how you want it. On the plus side, great price, dynoed motor, 2 year unlimited mile warrenty, how could you go wrong? Good luck on your purchase make sure to give some updates on what you do.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Second place was definately 1st on my list. I sent the links to the place I am taking my TA for the swap and they actually took the time to see what else was on there and sent me some links back that might be a better fit, and say the prices listed on there are incredible.

That goes a long way with me, this place going for what I want and helping find the best and less expensive way of going about it.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'd ask for a real carb, or a credit for them keeping that expensive piece of shiny scrap metal.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Forgot to mention in last post, thanks for the info on the pan Five7, I did think it was a bit overboard.

In my searches I've been pretty lucky, I stumbled upon this which appears to be a brand new engine - and also has the 2 year unlimited mile warranty. Now I'm curious about what you think about Edelbrock as a whole or if you think their carbs are horrible - or just that particular one that was on the rebuilt that you mentioned.

For almost the same price, these two look pretty good and I'm leaning towards the ZZ4:

ZZ4 Crate (1 yr 24000mile warranty or 3 year for $300) - I originally found this engine on ebay for about $4800, then searched and found this one for $800 less in the same area where I might drive down and pick it up to save the shipping.

Edelbrock Crate (2 yr unlimited mile warranty)

I think my question may be retorical though hehe, the place I'm talking with really likes the ZZ4.

4playta

I would never ever buy a motor off ebay! Why dont you get a ZZ4 from GM? Comes with a warranty.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Don't think I'd by a motor off any joe schmoe, these guys "appear" to do this quite a bit and have a legitimate "appearing" website.

That may be moot point now with that ZZ4 for sale in my previous post. Getting excited! WooT!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Is your car carb'd? If so, the ZZ4 will work wonderfully with the stock computer set-up. See sig.

You will need more stall, so put a 2000-2500 RPM stall torque converter in your budget. The shop doing the work can install it with the engine.

If you don't have exhaust in your budget, don't bother with the engine. That's assuming you have a carb - the TPI exhaust is about the best the factory ever did.

Ditto the air cleaner if carb. You need dual snorkel of one sort or another.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Yeah it's an old LG4 with the computer controlled carb. There is budget for the exhaust so no worriest there, hoping to go full dual.

And now I enter the "looking for dual snorkel" type person like I have seen so many other people do haha!

Thanks for info on the TC. I'll start checking those out as well. From work of course

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I wouldn't bother with full duals. More problems than benefits.

You can make a dual snorkel out of a couple of singles. Or, get one from ramair.com (no thermovac, though).

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Further scrounging has found a few places I can actually drive down to get the motor! Found a brand new ZZ4 in Ohio from Pace Performance. Need to phone these places now to see if it will cost me any more to get it across the border. Far as I know if made in USA or Mexico - no tariffs.

Shipping the rebuilt comparing to picking it up really balances out the cost, and I get a new and better engine. The place I am working with actually sent me a link that I already posted (the one that Five7 alerted me on about the hugger headers) hehe! Made me sound all smart when I told them, thanks Five!

Thanks very much everyone for their inputs! Appreciate it very much.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

"Across the border"? Are you in Canada?

LG4's delivered in Canada typically didn't get CCC. But, that may have changed by 1986.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I was one of the "lucky" ones that had the CCC, and I'm also Canadian.

Hope no one holds that against me

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Other than taking fewer CN$'s than US$'s these days, no, won't hold it against you.

Personally, I consider the CCC q-jet to be superior to the non-CCC. But, that's just me.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Having not had the nonCCC I couldn't comment, but it sure stopped me from doing smaller upgrades which drove me crazy. But hindsight is 20/20 - would have been a waste of money since the whole engine is coming out now hehe!

Looking at some of the pics in the Dual Exhaust thread I really don't like how low some of them are. I have to drive over speedbumps every day to get into our parking lot at work hehe! So that'll be food for thought later on. And luckily I read up on ceramic coated headers, and you're not supposed to use them while breaking in an engine. Causes some sort of damage.

2055's still the header of choice? Been scrounging around on here, I don't think I really need coated ones. Going to be a daily driver in summer only. I guess it would help stop the corrosion over the long term.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

2055's are still my recommendation.

Ceramic coating reduces heat coming through the pipes as well as providing corrosion protection. Some say it increases power, but I've never seen back-to-back dyno pulls with coated and uncoated headers.

I did my engine break in with the coated headers on. I had roller lifters, so I didn't need to break in the cam.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Why the warning from Hooker about the break in? I assuming it has something to do with higher heat as the engine breaks in and loosens up a little/gets more lubed.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Heat shock, from what I understand.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

You know what? I eventually did that! hehe! While I was calling a local GM place he informed me that the warranty would not be covered on the engine from the states (brand new, same GM part number for the ZZ4 crate engine and everything so I found that hard to believe) and he asked if he could quote me some numbers for what he could provide.

He also told me they were the number one GM performance parts provider in ontario, I took that with a grain of salt but in the end he managed to get me into a Fast Burn 383 for almost the same price as a ZZ4 - and a little more than what I would have paid for the ZZ4 from Ohio (when you add in truck rental, gas, and maybe a night over).

For convenience sake I'll spend a little bit more locally. Even includes delivery to the performance shop so they can install! And after listening to the various 383 sound clips in the exhaust section I'm pretty pumped up!!!

I showed them the pics from the exhaust section as well, so we'll see if I want to go true dual still. Thanks again for the pointers guys! This site is great for our third gens!!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Sticking with the stock computer carb?

I assume this is the 385 HP 350 ZZ4 shortblock with Fast Burn heads.

I still think duals are more trouble than benefit. If you retain the computer, you'll have to retain O2 sensor.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

385 Yes, sorry. I have 383 stroker on the brain for some reason. it's a full turnkey 385 from GM, has carb, water pump, fuel pump, alt, etc all on it.

385 Fast Burn

So goodbye to the old CCC. He could have gotten me a RamJet but I'm pretty sure it won't fit under the stock hood, and I want to keep the looks pretty stock.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If you haven't ordered already, you might consider getting the longblock, and keeping the CC carb. Cheaper now, cheaper operating over the life of the engine.

If you go with the turnkey, don't forget you need to provide a means for locking the TCC.

The Ramjet fits under the stock hood just fine. The air cleaner they're providing with the turnkey probably won't.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

{sigh} It sure didn't look like it would fit, and the fellow at the dealership said it wouldn't either. I'm sure the place installing knows about the TCC issue, as doing this sort of thing is supposed to be their specialty. Wonder if I should hold back mentioning that until just before they stuff it all back in

Kidding of course! I'll see if they know about this, but now i'm curious about the airbox. I'll be speaking with them tomorrow, have to go give them some coin for some work done earlier on her. I'm curious though, if the ZZ4 would fit why wouldn't the FB385? From what I see the only difference are the heads. Unless you meant it would fit with the dual snorkel set up.

Might be taking the day off, expecting about a foot of snow here overnight and tomorrow :/ Not very nice for car dreaming hehe!

jay_d

lil off topic but.....the 350 Hp engine was WAAAAAY too high...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Way too high in what way?

The Fastburn will "fit". All I'm saying is the computer carb set-up would run just fine, you wouldn't have to spend money for things that undo desirable things that mean you have to spend more money to redo them (like the TCC). Fuel economy would be better with the q-jet, and the accessory system is unnecessary. A Vortec spreadbore intake would mount the q-jet (although you would have to keep the EGR solenoid to avoid SES lights, even though the EGR valve itself wouldn't be there).

Anyway, just thoughts on another route. You've probably committed to this one, so now it's make it work properly. The carb is most likely vacuum secondary - again, not my choice, but it can be made to work okay. The picture isn't clear, nor is the description, but the air cleaner may be drop base. The description says it includes a fuel pump, but the picture doesn't show it or the fuel line. Neat valve covers.

Have you settled on exhaust?

By the way, Fast Burns are great heads. 30 HP over the ZZ4 Vette aluminum heads. That's saying something.

jay_d

i see your point, but for that kind of money you could get a lot more horse power and torque

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Do you mean the first crate motors he linked?

And, too high priced?

If so, I certainly agree, and discouraged them as well.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

That's good to know. If I did want to go back it's nice to know that it is possible. That being said, i'm not sure how well the original carb on there is performing. I did a search on getting the TCC working and I find it a bit confusing since it is new to me. I have the basic idea that there is a kit that can make it work mechanically, and there are various ways to go about it.

While this is true, getting that rebuilt engine here and having any kind of warranty repair done would put the price right back to what I am paying now for a brand new engine, local. Remember I'm in Canada hehe! Border stuff is a pain in the rear. That being said, 385hp is plenty - if not too much - for me lol. Any more and I'd have to start replacing other items and beefing up the body to take all that torque. I'm not looking to drag, or race, or be crazy. Just looking for a sweet sounding ride that has some ***** behind it that has some manners, to a certain extent, to be a daily driver in the warm weather. Only reason I've gone with the 385 is the price was so close to the zz4 and ramjet I just couldn't say no hehe!

I'm a bit confused on that one, agree that what I am getting (new) is too high priced? When you say discouraged them as well, did you mean the ebay linked engines? I re-read the thread but still don't follow hehe!

I went to their site to see what they had but I didn't see anything car related on there. I'll assume you have to call and ask specifically for the dual snorkel set up? All I found were industrial air filtration systems.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I meant the eBay linked engines. I'm still not sure what he meant.

It's been awhile since I looked them up. I see what you mean, though, something is weird. Or, I've got a bad memory (not wholly unlikely).

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Wish I had the room to do this myself, having trouble already with the place I was going to use so I've left them.

The TA takes up my entire garage from nose to tip, it's so long! hehe! I could work with the garage door open but then i'd have to make sure what I was getting done could be finished in a day or a weekend. Can't leave a cherry picker hanging outside all week! Neighbours would definately complain hehe!

I suppose I could attempt making a snorkel type assembly on my own, like i've seen others do. That's if I can't find one. I'll have to check the yards near me and see.

Staten Island S

Don't think that you are hidden from disaster even if purchasing a motor from GM. I bought a 290hp 350 motor from GM Performance for my Monte SS and it was defective. It had the wrong cam and blew the valve seal springs all over the place. Cam was replaced, valve seals replaced and it still doesn't run correctly. Made in MEXICO.....figure that one out? Maybe the ebay motors are actually put together by someone who cares- unlike the Mexican that built my motor.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The GMPP crates are assembled in a special shop in the U.S. Not an assembly line or foreign operation. I don't think you'll have that problem.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Interesting you say Mexico, when I asked where the motor is coming from - thats what the parts manager said. Of course, people at dealerships seem to make mistakes more often than not.

There's a chance you get a lemon in anything, If I remember right my Jeep was made in Mexico; and it lasted me 11 years and almost 400 000km.

So this'll be interesting to see where it did come from, I imagine I'll get the bill of lading/shipping info since I'm picking it up myself.

I'm picturing a Looney Toons episode where I get a giant kangaroo in the crate instead of my engine, and that my cat will think it is a giant mouse and go through several attempts at catching him all to no avail hehe!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The shipping information probably won't tell you where it was assembled, just the warehouse it came from.

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

You know, I'm really curious about this too, five7kid, you never once miss a chance to comment on an Edelbrock carb being a worthless piece of junk. What happened, did you get smoked by a Civic or something while running an poorly operating Edelbrock carb? Properly tuned they work well, they have the typical idiosyncraces of a vacuum secondary carb, but thats the nature of the design. Properly setup they can yield good response, and good economy. Are they the #1 choice for every last hp you can wrangle out of a motor, of course not. Are they junk? I don't think so. I'm not interested in a pissing match, but a logical discussion of just what it is that makes you take every chance you get to take a shot at a Edelbrock carb.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The biggest problem I have with the Edelbrock is when people pull a stock q-jet that's operating just fine for one of these because it is the cheapest thing they can buy and they think anything is better than factory. You won't gain any power, and you will lose fuel economy. If you have an automatic transmission, you'll have to set up the TV cable, and you'll have to rig up the torque converter lock-up to work outside of the ECM. If you have a manual transmission, you aren't gaining anything over what you already had. It won't bolt to a stock manifold. Even if the q-jet isn't working right, it'll probably cost less to fix it than it will to get the Edelbrock carb running.

If you don't have a carb already, it's a poor choice in every way except initial price. You don't have to be going for every last horse power for it to be lacking. It is only available in one type - demand-based secondaries, which you already admitted is a shortcoming - and if this is primarily a race car and/or you have a manual transmission, you're already in the wrong aisle. The Thunder series is slightly better because at least on them you can tune the AV a little. They aren't any better for fuel economy than any other properly tuned carb, and they will be lacking in power somewhere in the power curve.

Most people get them because they're cheap and they've heard they're easy to tune. Being able to change rods from the top is the only thing about them that is easier to tune than a Holley-style carb. If you can't get it right with rods, you're into it as much or more than you would be with a Holley style carb. People also hear this nonsense about Holleys needing to be tuned constantly - no more so than any other carb with the possible exception of the CC q-jet (which was probably just taken off of the car). There are a lot more posts on the Carburetor forum about "I can't get this Performer to run right" than there are for Holleys. And that's not because of a lack of information about tuning Performers. Yes, there are a lot of posts about getting the bog out of a Holley, as often as not it wasn't the carb that was causing the problem.

So, that leaves you with two advantages for the Performer: They're cheap, and they look shiny. If those two things are all that are important to you, then go for it. Otherwise, go a different direction.

(And trust me, I've passed on many an opportunity to comment on them. . .)

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

Fair assesement, and well put. If its a carb being selected on the basis that its shiny, thats an awful dumb reason to buy a carb. Gain's over a stock, well tuned Q-jet, no. It is a heck of a lot easier to work on than a Q-jet, and making rod/spring changes from the top is nice, but once you get into the main jet tuning, you are correct, its as much work as taking apart a Holley. Still nothing like gutting a Q-jet.

I would argue that when in proper tune they can deliver as much performance and as much fuel economy as a Q-jet. (CC models excluded of course.) And, they can be found dirt cheap, which isn't a bad reason for owning one, especially on a street car, with relatively tame gears and converter. (vacuum secondary carbs don't belong on stick cars, IMO) I guess I just brought it up because I don't think an Edlebrock 1407 750cfm carb is a bad setup for a street driven, mild 350. I think there would be little difference between a q-jet and the 1407 on the ZZ4 application. (again CC excluded, if you've got one that works right, and want to maintain the computer, keep it) I wouldn't go as far as to call it junk, thats for sure.

I appreciate a fair and logical explanation, which can be counted on with you. Back to the e-bay motor discuss, and sorry to all for the digression.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I like how that ebay link put god knows what casting heads on tht motor... theyre just advertised as "2.02/1.60" heads.....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

But not both.

I watched many a time several years ago as a fellow racer would get to the track, change the highway rears to slicks, and change the carb rods. He then got a Speed Demon, and although he still drives the car to work, now he only changes the rear tires when he gets to the track.

They are pretty common on eBay crate engines, because they are cheap and shiny. The typical eBay buyer of that type of stuff doesn't know what they should be looking for. In this specific instance, the originator already had a superior carb, so why waste money on a package that includes an inferior carb?

I suppose it could be argued that I should stick to strict recommendations without the editorial words. But, look at the great discussion it spawned.

Ditto on the heads. "2.02 heads" is a buzz-phrase the poorly informed latch onto. As Infernal indicated, that could be most anything. Most likely they're 882 smog junk (hopefully I won't get an argument about 882's being "junk").

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Make that http://www.ramairbox.com/kits.html . $348.45.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Now that we've been talking about carbs, and not the kind certain people may be watching with regards to food , I'm thinking the Q-Jet might not have enough umph for the 385? If it does maybe keeping it might be an option if it makes things easier in the long run. The spec sheet says it comes with a 750cfm Holley, and I'm sure the QJet doesn't push that much - i seem to remember 600 or 650cfm.

For exhaust I think I may play it safe and go single 3", and the 2055's like you recommended. This will help too if I need to have a Cat put on in case the gov't here changes their mind about emissions -- which I've heard rumblings about. Even though just the Cat won't solve all emissions.

Just for curiousity sake - would I be having the same troubles if I went with the RamJet? Or would the control module take care of the tranny controls as well?


Oh and thanks very much for finding that RamAirBox site, it's even close to me so I can drive to pick it up!

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

There are two different size q-jets if I remember correctly. I don't remember the smaller size, but I'm pretty sure the large is 835cfm, pretty stout. I'm sure others can elaborate further. Also, look for what other are having good luck with on similar combos. We had a "what carb should I use" discussion in another thread a while back, and there is definetly no hard and fast rule for what works best. There is a formula you can use to aproximate the size carb you want, but you'll find what actually works can vary greatly from what the math recommends.

You're going automatic, so a demand based carb like a q-jet or other vacuum secondary carb my work best for you. If you're going to run a stall converter you could also look to mechanical secondary carbs. There are a few potential hickups with a mechanical carb on a stock stall, but those can be avoided with a good converter/rear-end selection. Some will argue mechanicals give worse mileage - they can be about the same as a vacuum secondary carb, but only if you can really behave your right foot.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Some LG4 q-jets had the AV travel limited so it would only flow about 600 CFM. There is a tech article linked from the thirdgen.org homepage that describes how to fix that. Neither the original '86 LG4 q-jet on my Camaro #1 nor the replacement carb on my all-stock '82 LG4 in Camaro #2 had that limited.

Without the limiter, any q-jet will flow at least 750 CFM. 795 is another number bantered about. The "big one" would flow 850 CFM.

So, you won't be giving up flow capability with a q-jet as long as you verify the AV travel.

The Ram Jet controller is a stand-alone, open loop device. It won't interface with the ECM or TCC. Some people have converted the Ram Jet to be controlled by a TPI ECM, but that won't work with a carb ECM.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Wow! That is really good to know, I'll have to look up AV Travel to see if I have it since I have the car at home again.

And for the RamJet, that puts the final nail for me on that option. Plus I hear the 385 is a really fun engine, not just here but all the people I've talked with over the phone.

Now I just have to decide on the torque converter itself, in talking with the new place he said something about matching a certain rpm range of the engine to get the "most right" TC. I'm planning on getting both tranny/engine out at once still, so I should decide on one in 2-3months.

Thanks for the info you two, really appreciate it.

SteelTownMadDog

iTrader: (2)

I have a QJet on mine...but an older early 70's model that is tuned for street/strip application. I managed a 310 RWHP (about 365-375HP flywheel) and 342 RWTQ (about 400 TQ flywheel) with it, and a cheesy Edelbrock shortie headers. I still get 22-24 MPG (US Gal) on highway cruises.

All info about my car here: www.rbvracing.com

Fyrstorm, a well built QJet will run on a 400+ HP engine...I'm not sure about the CCC QJet though. Wouldn't the ECM need reprogramming?

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

ECM doesn't handle carb functions at WOT, so it shouldn't be a factor from that standpoint. The timing curve in CC applications is less that ideal, or so I've heard. Lots of inital is a good crutch, but I was told retuning more agressive adv was a good idea with the CC application for max performance.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The L69 was a little steeper in the timing curve. So was the no-longer-available ZZ4 chip (main reason it required premium fuel).

I've never tried chip tuning, although that will change with the "other Camaro" LS1 project I'm just getting into. That may prod me into trying the carb chip tuning if I can find (and justify) the interface equipment.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Well here goes! The engine has been paid for and now I just have to talk with the swappers to get it over there and start swapping. It's snowed here a lot earlier than expected

I guess it's not that far away, just hate the idea of getting salt on her after being able to keep away from it for 10 years. (Not sure if the previous owners ever winter drove, but it's in such good shape I don't think they did).

Thanks for the info so far, guess we'll see how it turns out. Will the stock manifolds will mate up? Be nice if they did, for the break in period anyway. Just need to get it back home again after the swap so I can continue the other stuff on my own.

Fyrstorm

iTrader: (1)

Another question for the guru's.

[1] Will the stock exhaust manifolds bolt up to the 385 FB? Just for the break in period until I get the headers, and to just get it home at least.

[2] Torque Converter. I've got a quote from Edge for a recommend a custom configured converter from our "Street Edge" series with stall math set at 2800-3000 rpm, and STR set at, or near 2.40. Warranteed for a full year with 100% money back. The "Street Edge" 700r4 /4L60-e sells for 525.00 plus shipping.

I've read others are happy with their Edge TC's so I don't mind spending the extra, but of course I'm open for suggestions. As you guys have read, it's mostly stock at the moment and would like the TC to grow with the car. From other posts in this thread, is the 2800-3000rpm too high?

Since this is getting started soon I'd like to swap out the TC while the engine is out and then see how I do from there.