carfixxer

If I could be of any assistance let me know..

carfixxer

full view

wm_sorg

Looks great. Please provide more details and pictures.

tta1415

Did you use the stock TPI fuel pump?
Where did you get the adapter pate for the 700R4 trans?
Its hard to tell in the pics but did you keep your air?

carfixxer

I wrote all the details out and I opened a picture folder that used this window and it erased every thing, So here we go again, perhaps they can make a sticky out of it.
I know they have a Q&A in FAQs about this but it is more informative than instructional. .....here we go start fresh on a new post

carfixxer

This swap was done using the 86-87 Buick, Grand National -Ttype LC2 engine.
The car used in this project is a 1989 GTA (I also did this on a 87 GTA)
First step, decide what trans you are going to use; the 200R4 bolts right up to the engine but there are cross-member/torque arm issues if your car is originally equppied with the 700R4 & all those things need to be changed. The THM 400 & 350 can be used too but the same issues w/ cross members etc, in addition to the problem of driveshaft length being different.

Since I was using the 700R4, I purchased an adapter plate from Trans-dapt, TCI makes one too. It sandwiches between the bellhousing of the trans and bolts to the block.

The next step, is motor mounts, the Buick mounts will work; the upper ones are avaiable at GM and most parts stores, the lower metal ones get from GM or the junk yard.
The TTA mounts upper and lower may be hard to find but you can skip the whole next step if you do get your hands on a set.

My method only works if you have a bare or mostly bare 3.8 V-6 Block; leave the transmission IN THE CAR, use some blocks of wood to place the trans at the proper height. Do this with the car on a LEVEL surface.
I know a lot of BS, but I have found that its the easiest and most accurate way to do this.
First, have the engine compartment prepared take every thing out from radiator to frame mounts out. There is a brake line that goes from the driver side to passenger side has to be moved but, it is easy and no line disconnection is required just unbolt the retainer and move the line to the rear or the frame. Then bolt the trans plate adapter and both the rubber mounts (upper) and the (lower) metal mounts to the block (the lower ones will swing freely its oK)

Now get into the engine compartment... YES inside theres plenty of room! Have your buddy hand you the block assm. When bare, its not too heavy but is a bit akward, use a crane for a shortblock etc.
Now place the blocks mounts on the subframe and line the dowels on the block to the trans, (adjust tran height if necessary) and put a few bolts I suggest at least four-- two hi --2 low into the trans to block and tighten down.
Now line up the block so it's level and the mounts look even left and right, take a sharp scribe and trace inside each bolt hole and around the entire edge of each lower mount.

Unbolt and remove the block, take the lower mounts off the engine take the time and make sure you dont mix up left and right sides they are different and will cause problems when you are under the car trying to get those bolts in holes that arent aligned.
Now start drilling holes...6 holes to be exact 3 on each side...I like to drill one hole then place the mount on and put a bolt thru the hole, it helps acting as a template. Its a bit of a pain getting the nuts on the bolts but keep trying and dont forget the washers! (use ones that came with the car,) You dont want to tear bolts out with all the torque generated when the car launches

A little paint to prevent rust and now we are ready for the next step.

carfixxer

Here we have it...but before you lower your engine into the engine bay there are a few heads ups.
Contrary to what the FAQ article says custom headers are NOT needed, what is needed is a custom downpipe; that is the pipe that goes from the turbo to the catalyst (you do have a catalyst right? ) You can have one made locally or call a place like Full throttle speed(.com). Tell them exactly what you are doing...putting a Buick GN engine in a F body. I had a 3 in. stainless steel THDP(turbo housing downpipe) made for $600 its beautiful and works great.

DO NOT buy a premade one for a TTA it will not fit--DO NOT buy a premade one for a GN/Ttype it will not fit. There is a certain angle and curve, it might be best to get almost every thing else done and have the car towed to the place you are getting it done at. The factory crossover pipe fits in the car and works but the clearance is too close and makes contact. What I did was put it in the car and I drove it to an exhaust shop and when we put the car up I showed him exactly what had to be done. He cut a section out and welded a recurved piece and the issue was solved. While we are at this part I will mention getting a mini starter or cutting down the nose of the starter to clear the cross over. I did the nose trim thing. You dont have to remove alot of material just enough so it doesnt make contact with the crossover.

The A/C box has to be removed, there is no way to retain it and run exhaust to the rear.
But those of you who insist on A/C...you can cut a hole in the hood and have a smoke stack fabricated! you can even be cool and have a flapper thingy like the big diesel trucks have. ok enough jokes..
So since wasnt selling my used A/C air box I took a hammer and started to break it up, no excesive force needed its made of fiberglass. Then I took out the evaporator and bolts from the passenger and engine compartment that held it all in. Hold on to the bolts.

Now that the A/C is out of the way a 1LE A/C Delete air box will fit in there nicley( I bought one used from Dave Stabuli contacted on this site junk yards might have a few) this will allow you to have fresh air and heat. Unlike that FAQ article says, the heater core can stay but a Buick GN heater control valve is used. Wiring is straight forward but you will have one less blower speed. (This heater box can be done later there is plenty of room to work when the engine is in, but the gaping hole there will allow exhaust fumes to get in and you will die...or at least get headaches.)

Now I hate to tell you but the fuel pump has to go. I know it is a huge PIA on F-bodies but I have done 5-6 of them now and I can only tell you to wear SAFTEY GLASSES, I had to go to the Dr's at 5 PM on Dec 23rd because of an eye injury doing a fuel pump lots of things to get into your eyes working under a car. Fast forward to installing a pump...I use a Walbro 340 this is the industry best and are around $110. get a "hotwire" kit from Caspers electronics.com this circumvents the puny old factory wiring and provides 12-13 volts from the alternator w/ heavy duty relay and wiring, no wires to splice just plug and play. Failure to get the correct voltage to the pump will result in early pump failure and why do you want to make a hard job harder?
Now two fuel lines must be fabricated, from the feed and return in the engine compartment to the feul rail. I used #8 steel braided line and bought the correct oring type fuel fitting (Russell Earls etc).for the factory rubber lines, you need about 5-6 feet of braided line and two 90* fitting for the fuel regulator (get an adjustable one) and fuel inlet.
I apologize I dont have the P/N or this info any more if I find it I will update anyone wanting to share info just post.
OK were done with this part Engine is in, fuel system up, heater box on, exhaust all in. Next part is electrical and instrumentation,

carfixxer

Now we breach the subject that intimidates alot of people: auto electric. There are a few senarios that take place here...
If using an 87*-92 GTA/Camaro w/ 5.7 TPI you can purchase a brand new OEM spec harness from Caspers electronics ($700.) or Postonbuick.com If you go that way your headaches are over! Its all plug and play, no wires to cut, move, solder, figure out, and so on. The bulkhead connector goes right in no prob. The only exception is on 87s; the wiper motor and connection is different and you need a 88 or later one.

There are a a few advantages to spending the extra to do this, 1st is the wiring is brand NEW-- no 17 year old, tired brittle, wiring and connectors to deal with, So you can drive for years with confidence, and if a problem does arise you can pretty much eliminate the wiring as a culprit.

The second advatage is the wiring for dual fans the GNs only had one fan the TTA has 2 with the ECM controling both fans and you can easily add a grounding toggle switch to the secondary fan for total fan control. Third advantage is the speedo sender if you are keeping the 700R4 the GN has cable speedo and there is no provision on the harness for the pick up in the tail shaft of the trans.
The connector for the transmission lock up controler will plug right in but there are two wires which have to be changed in order for the lock up to work

The ECM is the same for both the GN and TTA but make sure if you use the TTA harness you get a chip burned for the TTA ( the GN one will work but the 2nd fan wont go on in a high over temp. situation.
Now the second senario is to use the GN harness this requires you to change the bulkhead connectors since they are very different. This includes the figuring out what each wire does and where it goes on the grid. A set of two manuals for each car will help do this, so its just matter of taking your time and the same goes if you are placing the engine into a car that had a 305 or 2.8 there is no plug and play no matter what harness is used so get some books do some research ask soem questions and you'll be good. Paying someone to do this will drain alot of your budget that is well spent elsewhere.

Trust me my first car sat for a long time because I was intimidated by the "Big wiring job" If you have basic mechanical ability or a few friends to help, it is doable just look at the books and buy a few tools like, a Fluke multi-meter, test light, and the connectors from GM, and your ok.

Now we have the instrument cluster to deal with the factory cluster will partially work. why partially?
The voltmeter and fuel gauge will work fine. The water and oil temp will require you to take the senders out of the engine that was in the car and put them in the Buick engine, and depending on your set up you might have to run a wire from the sender to under the dash (water temp is a green wire, oil pressure is a tan/brown.)
The speedo might give you some issues depending if its a cable driven or electronic. The 89 GTA had eletronic speedo so i think it will be fine.

The tach will not work if the cluster is for a V-8 car. These were made solid state and are not ajustable, you can maybe get one out of a V-6 car or call a place like Caspers electronics or a speedometer shop and see if they can make a translator for you it will probably run you $100 just for that. I chose to make a whole new custom cluster. I used VDO vision series gauges; I didnt like the accuracy of the factory gauges since there was some difference in readings when I compared it to the scanner readings. And I was able to add a turbo gauge and a knock gauge.
Going with the VDO speedo created a problem with the VSS the computer uses VSS to control a number of things like converter lock-up, fan, cruise control, to mention a few. But since the VDO is a electric programmable speedo I used a Casperselectronics.com translator to convert the pulses from my speedo to the factory pulse # so my VSS works as designed.

But the VDO tach is not set up for CCC ignition and needed a translator too both are very small and pose no installation problems.

carfixxer

Steering: You will have to drill a hole or two in the strut tower and fabricate a small bracket to hold the power streering fluid reservior-- no biggy.

Oil cooler, radiator, oil filter.
There is no provision for an oil cooler on the F-body radiator and aftermarket (B&M makes a good one) should be installed and also it is strongly suggested to install a trans cooler for most any car.
Some might run into the problem I encountered, If you have a hivolume oil pump front cover and then use the factory oil cooler adapter it pushes the oil filter 1/4 inch lower to the ground. This caused interference with one of the joints on the steering arm. On a full left turn it would pierce the filter and a total mess would ensue.
I always had in the back of my mind to install the dual remote oil filters so Transdapt makes remote filter setups for most any car.
Not only does this solve the interference but with the large dual filters I get an extra 2-3 quart capacity. I put the battery on the driver side and fabricated a simple but heavy duty bracket to hold the filters. The hose provided wit the kit was not long enough so,
I ran #10 stainless steel braided line w/ the correct fittings from the oil pump adapter to the filters, from the filter outlet to the cooler, exits the cooler back to the engine.

carfixxer

I will add more as I think of it and Edit to give more detail.It looks like alot but I tried to give the smallest detail so that you can prepare and have no surprises.
All the time, money and effort, might seem, strange to some
but a few reasons for me is:
The initial purchase price of a TTA is $9-$14K usually with 60-100k miles on them too.
95 % of TTAs came with T-Tops I personally am not a "T-Top-on-a-performance-car" type of guy and hard top TTAs are very rare (only 16 made!) and expen$ive.
I am not a big fan of the camel/tan color interior or the 9 bolt rear (great rear but dont wear it out or break it-- $eriou$ buck$!)
And I want to drive a TTA like it was supposed to be driven , not always a wise thing to do with a collectable car.
Well take care every one

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Good stuff

I did the swap too...was pretty interesting

carfixxer

Well I put about 8k miles on the 3.8 since I first posted this article.
Car and I were out in Hawaii and it drove me to work, and down the track at at best of 12.6@ 108. With stock turbo, and small injectors.
Due to my relocation the car was stored for 6 months, and I grew restless with the idea to enhance my powerplant.....to build a 4.1.

For those who arent in the know, the 4.1 Buick v-6 was only available from 81-84 in certain GM mid-full size cars --Buick Olds Cads.
This is the 3.8's bigger brother and all the same engine parts are used except for Rings and Pistons. Oil pan and front cover are different from the 86-87 years but no big deal.

I was on a budget.
I got super lucky and pulled a complete 4.1 out of a wrecked Regal that was a few days away from going to the crusher.

So last month I completed the swap again some differences in the above article:
I got my hands on the TTA engine mounts and they are a pleasure to deal with compared to what I went through in the first place.
The TTA rubber mounts are available at parts stores as they fit a few other cars, you have to buy 2 LH sides but it will fit the RH if you bend a metal tab 3 in.
I used the 204/214 edelbrock cam, Lunati 200/200 I used wasnt to my satisfaction.
and to keep costs down I got the .030 Sealed Power hyper piston that have the dry film lubed skirts.
Larger Te-44 turbo and 60-65 lb Siemens injectors.
I have about 600 miles on the engine now and really pleased its amazing how 20 extra cubes make it sound and feel.
I really think I have to start thinking of getting stronger rear end now....

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

The extra cubes really help down low and help get that turbo going. Good luck

carfixxer

4.1 freshly pulled from the yard.

carfixxer

.030 Dry film lube Hypertutectic pistons......... Head & crank studs went in.

carfixxer

New tin and upper pleneum and blocked EGR...see those slim Siemens injectors?

carfixxer

In the car.... with the full custom VDO instrumentaion thats needed if you want to know whats going on.

Calico

very nice swap....seems like we got us a new guru here...i'll definatly be picking your brain

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Makes one wonder how much of that is due to the extra displacement, and how much is due to the cam/turbo/etc. changes.

Surprised you used hyper pistons. They generally aren't considered PA parts. I'll have to admit I don't know what the factory used for their turbo 6's, though.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

The extra cubes help big time down low.

carfixxer

The factory used cast pistons. Hypers as long as you keep the knock in check you'll be alright. I went this route because there are no off-the-shelf forged pistons for this engine customs were around $500. I was doing a budget build on this one.... I have a steel crank, BHJ balancer, FW,and new rods in storage for the next beast.....
These engines do not respond to cams like other n/a cars do.
A good number of people dicovered very little/zero performance gain over the factory cams!

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

A small cam will help a bit up top. Though the stock cam will go VERY far.

Calico

Hey I have a question, I have a v6 car i am using to swap the lc2 in. I plan to get a v8 700r4 and run an aluminum 4th gen driveshaft with a gta rear. what kinda problems will i see? I'm gonna run the hnr parts mounts? what kinda wiring problems will i see? I think im gonna get a 4th gen dash also ect?

carfixxer

Im not sure what kind of wiring issues you will se at the bulkhead (firewall) connector.
What harness do you have? GN or TTA?
The harnesses trans connector for the lock up converter needs to have (2) wires swapped (easy).
But your biggest issue will be the VSS since you want to go with the 4th gen dash you may research to see if the VSS from a 4th gens trans will fit into your car.
VSS is important; no VSS=no lock up convertor and check engine light will show.
Driveshaft should be no problem they are the same.

oh BTW I am selling my car as a roller see ad in Firebirds FS here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fire...ta-roller.html

TunedPort 335

Call me crazy, but i am seriously thinking about this. I have the opportunity to pick up a complete GN motor and several other items for cheap money. Thanks for all the tips in this thread! Now i hafta go think some more