Mr. Z06

Hi folks,
Well, I think I am ready to move on to the next phase of 'project IROC-Z'. This next phase involves a new engine. Currently I have a 305CI with 112k miles.

Below I have listed the characteristics I want in my new engine.
Based on these specifications, your experieced suggestions would greatly be appreciated.


*Minimum 300hp to rear wheels
*Gas mileage comparable to new Vette. (25-27mpg).
*Reliable power
*An engine that can be happy going on long cruises and also provide bone jarring power in the street races.
*$5000 spending limit (maybe more).

I also want to retain the fuel injection.
Now many will say to go with the LS1, but I want something that will 'drop in' without going to extra steps.

Also, what will need to be done with the ECU with the new engine? Does anyone know how much re-programing the ECU will be?

Thanks!

Tommy

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

A wise man once said: THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT. If you start with a larger engine, you'll make more power easier. By not having to go so radical on the engine to make hp, It'll be easier to keep the engine efficient also. A 400 or 383 can tuck nicely in your bay with no chassis mods.

Steve89GTA

How about a SDPC 360TPI motor with a miniram or LT1 intake on it...I think you'd be over 300hp with that..

Air_Adam

You basically just described a lightly modded LT-1.

(lighly modded meaning headers, exhaust, CAI, etc)

Steve89GTA

maybe, but with the hotcam and vortecs I think it'll rip an LT1

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

LT1 / T56
Full boltons.

kretos

383 stroker, turbo

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

25-27 mpg with any of the above non-LS1 combos that will keep up with LS1's - Pipedreams.

Air_Adam

I agree... there aren't any other engines out there that will get the fuel mileage and power of an LS1. The LS1 isn't a drop in though, so IMO, getting an LT1 would be the next best thing. Thats assuming you want a drop-in engine like you said in the original post.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Being that the LT1 got around that for mileage and a thirdgen is lighter which will help with fuel mileage, im going to have to disagree.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

There are variables, of course, like transmission type, rear gear ratio, optional equipment, tires, tuning/modifications, etc.

In general, though, all of the above being equal, the LT1 will either not keep up with the LS1, or it won't get as good of gas mileage.

StngKlr

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only other extra step in the LS1 swap is changing the motor mounts. Everything else is basically the same. But really, anything with FI is not going to be a "drop in" swap, or any kind of swap for that matter. Can we all agree on that?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

And fabricating a Y pipe, a lot more work clearancing for a/c compressor.

Two MAJOR things......

pasky

No fuel return line either.

Air_Adam

Not on the LT1, since it will use manifolds or headers designed for a 3rdgen. An off-the-shelf Y-pipe will work just fine with an LT1. An LS1 is a whole different story though.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Im fully aware of how to install an LT1. The post was to correct him saying the LS1 didnt require any additional fabrication....

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

easy, boys...........

I think I read about the ls1 swap in gm high tech that showed 2 ways......
1. cut out and re-box the front lower rh side of the crossmember.
2. replace the crossmember with the aftermarket tubular version.

That's right, isn't it?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

For the a/c compressor, yes, though it seems the next step after replacing the K member with the aftermarket one will be the loss of being able to steer your car.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Please explain, as I have been contemplating this as a strength upgrade. Am I on the wrong page here?

pasky

Not quite sure unless your forced to convert to rack and pinion when doing a tubular crossmember?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

So far it seems the only person with the tubular K member from hawks without their rack kit has caused clearance issues with the pittman arm and also the idler arm iirc.

TexasLT1

Yup, I haven't seen anyone adapt a 4th gen rack to a tubular cross-member, only one's I've seen are manual racks.


Naturally, I'm going to say LT1 is the way to go. But, since you've already got TPI and the harness and ECM for that, how about a 383 with LT1 intake, ported L98 heads or AFR 190's, Hotcam, and headers. You keep your entire harness and all the accessories, and could still pull 25 mpg on the highway. Plus, straight drop in, just get the ECM reprogrammed. With my LT4, cruising at 70 on the highway, I have pulled 28 mpg on occasion, but I usually go a bit faster, which drops it back to about 24 mpg. And I'm running a T-5 with 3.42's. If you did a T-56 as well, I think you could hit almost 30 mpg on the highway at decent cruise with 3.23's, lose just a little bit with 3.42's.


And another thing, you could definitely do the above stated and accomplish all of your goals. You can find a good 350 block for almost free these days, get a decent rotating assembly, doesn't have to be some all forged stuff if you don't ever plan on doing serious mods. You can get a Summit 383 engine kit for $1099, includes entire rotating assembly and all the gaskets, bearings, everything. Get an LT1 intake from John Millican, or get a complete intake, injectors and all off of ebay and send it to him, AFR heads you can get for about $1500 for 190cc (just a guess), and then there are plenty of decent cams out there that won't empty your tank every time you step on the gas. A good compromise cam is the Hotcam, good torque down low and nice pull up top too. With the remaining money, go for a T-56 and some gears as well as an LS1 driveshaft, and you're good to go. You won't have the torque down low like TPI does, but you'll have much better pull up top. With this setup, you would have no problem with stock or mild bolt-on LS1's.

TexasLT1

Am I correct in assuming you want to switch to a tubular cross-member for strength? I'd do some more research into tubular k-members before you did it if thats your only reason.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Even with 4.10's and a T56 he'd have a numerically lower O/D than you have with your 3.42's. 3.23 and a T56 isnt a very good idea, the stock 3.42's are a MINIMUM IMHO.

TexasLT1

Right, I got real happy when I started playing around with the RPM and MPH calculators, looking at what I would get if I switched to a T-56's and 4.10's, I'm definitely going this route. I just suggested the lower gear for mileage, but you're right, 3.42 is definitely about as low as you'd want to go.

pasky

There is a guy here in town with a LS1 thirdgen and he is running a tubular K-member with the steering box with no issues, believe it was a bmr one.

leeperryracing

if you don't wanna go ls1 or lt1 build a stout 350...concentrate most on cam, heads, induction and valve-train and then stealthram that sucker and you won't be dissapointed.

StngKlr

The only real fabrication is the Y-Pipe, you're right, thats what I forgot. I had an exhaust shop do mine, so no fabbing for me. Only $70 too.

There are brackets out there so that you can use the stock A/C compressor. No cutting required.

There is a return line for the fuel system, just not going all of the way to the motor.

burnout88

Here's the setup I will be putting in my 88 305 IROC

Total Cost for new motor, intake, and injection system. most parts are from

http://www.sdpc2000.com/ (Crate motor and heads, cam),
http://www.tpis.com/ (intake Setup)
http://www.hotrodlane.cc/ (Speed Density harness and sensors)

Article about the setup.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/56118/



1 . Ford 24 lbs./hr Fuel Injector Kit
Part Number: M-9593-A302
$219.95

2 . PLUG-HEX
Part Number: 3448834
$7.85

3 . 0.051" Composition 350 ZZ4 Small Block Chevrolet Head Gasket
Part Number: 12557236
$27.00

4 . Fast Burn SB Chevrolet Aluminum Cylinder Head
Part Number: 12464298
$1,179.50

5 . LT4 HOT Cam, 218 / 228 Duration@ 0.050, Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
Part Number: 24502586
$175.50

6 . GM Performance Parts 1.6 Ratio Bow Tie Roller Rocker Arms
Part Number: 12370839
$279.95

7 . 1992-93 Caprice, Fleetwood 5.7L / 350 GM Goodwrench Crate Engine
Part Number: 12513151
Shipped by Truck Weight: 620
$1,585.17

8. TPIS Mini Ram for Fast burn heads and Fuel line kit
Cost $895 for intake, $355 for line kit and regulator

9. Ed wright Dyno Tune.
$550

10. Speed Harness with needed sensors $800.00

11. Shipping costs $215.00


Sub Total
$5,489.92

Below are more detailed spec on the base crate motor before I swap on the fast burn heads and hotcam.

Crate Engine part number : 12513151
.SPECS ON THIS ENGINE ARE AS FOLLOWS:

1986 AND UP 2 BOLT MAIN 1 PIECE CRANKSHAFT SEAL BLOCK( NO MECHANICAL FUEL PUMP PROVISION):

NODULAR IRON CRANKSHAFT

POWDERED METAL CONNECTING RODS

FLAT TOP HYPEREUTECTIC PISTONS 9.6:1 COMPRESSION RATIO

HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP /SHORT WINDAGE TRAY

SINGLE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN

HYDRAULIC ROLLER CAMSHAFT
INTAKE LIFT-.359" * EXHAUST LIFT.384" * INTAKE DURATION @.050-186.5 * EXHAUST DURATION @.050-193.8LOBE CENTER SEPERATION -110.3

TIMING COVER

6" BALANCER

VALVE COVERS

CYLINDER HEAD SPECS:CASTING NUMBER 14102193
SWIRL PORT INTAKE PORT DESIGN
65.3cc COMBUSTION CHAMBER
1.94" INTAKE 1.50" EXHAUST VALVE
VALVE SPRING PART NUMBER IS 3911068 (SAME SPRING USED WITH THE OLD 300H.P 350 CRATE)INSTALLED HEIGHT 1.70" PRESSURE @ INSTALLED HEIGHT IS 80 LBS * PRESSURE WITH VALVE OPEN IS 267 LBS.
THESE SPRINGS ARE GOOD FOR .550" LIFT BUT CLEARENCE BETWEEN GUIDE AND RETAINER MUST BE DOUBLE CHECKED BEFORE ATTEMPTING.

7 BOLT EXHAUST FLANGE

CENTERBOLT VALVE COVER FLANGE

1987-1995 INTAKE MANIFOLD BOLT PATTERN WITH CENTER INTAKE BOLTS CANTED @ 72 ANGLE

THIS CYLINDER HEAD IS NOT A PERFORMANCE ORIENTED CYLINDER HEAD.
IT IS CLASSIFIED AS A HIGH SWIRL HEAD THAT WAS INTENDED FOR GOOD BOTTOM END TORQUE AND FUEL ECONOMY. THE INTAKE RUNNER IS RESTRICTIVE BECCAUSE IT HAS A RAMP CAST INTO THE BOTTOM OF THE BOWL TO PROMOTE HIGH SWIRL.

ALSO INCLUDED: ENGINE INCLUDES 4 QUART OIL PAN (5W/ FILTER) ( PART # 3448834 PLUG IS NEEDED TO PLUG EXTRA HOLE IN PAN THAT WAS INTENDED FOR A LOW OIL LEVEL SENSOR)


Again I will not be using the heads or Cam in the crate motor adding Fast burn heads and Hot Cam. Should put out over 400 hp at the flywheel.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

$5500, cant pass emissions, and outrun by a LT1 with a cam swap, OUCH.

TexasLT1

Why get a complete crate engine when you would be better off getting a short block since you're putting heads on it anyway? Cut down on your spending anywhere you can unless you like throwing money away. I would rethink you're approach before you start buying parts. With my current setup, I have less than $4k invested and would blow you away. Just something to think about if you want good performance on the cheap.

burnout88

The crate is only 1500 bucks and I can resell the heads for a couple hundred. Basically , making it only 1300. I think you guys are way off the mark on what is costs to put a motor in the car. A new GM short block is 1500.00 just for itself and you will have to pay 500.00 on top of that in roller lifters, pan, pump and misc just to turn it into a running motor.

Sure, my motor itself will only have a total cost with the head and cam swap of $3000, and will be better than the SPDC vortec crate engine.

I included all the costs to make the car RUN and complete the project. Including a 550.00 dyno tune , Shipping costs on parts, and 800 on a SD conversion for the car. Small gaskets and misc. parts, and a complete Induction setup.

Stop just adding up the big stuff and saying, yeh that's what it will cost

Also, this is a proven combo to make over 400 hp with all NEW parts and requires no way to get ripped off by some a-hole machine shop., It is a ordered and sent direct to my door with a weekend bolt in time frame and no fabricating,cutting or grinding to make it work.

Lets see your total engine swap price list? Including everything!!

TexasLT1

If I had one I would gladly show it to you, but here is most of the stuff from memory:

-'95 LT1 with 30K miles, $1500
-LT4 Heads, Hotcam, Intake , $1600
-Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, $250
-4th Gen rear with 3.42 posi and discs, $100
-Dual fan setup from ebay, $50
-Hedman headers and y-pipe, $200
-mail order tune, $50
-CarQuest a/c adaptor, $20
-custom A/C lines, $50
-custom powersteering lines, $50
-custom fuel lines, $5
-all the little miscellaneous crap, $500

Total - $4375

Now tell me I wasn't far off my original estimate? I'm just saying I think you could build an engine with comparable power for cheaper. Looking back, I wouldn't have gone the LT4 route, at least not with the came, and for the same price I'd have 30-50 hp more and be running very low 12's.