johnblacksox

My mechanic says that my oil intake gasket is going on my LG4 305 in my 1986 SC.

I'm thinking of getting a replacement engine. What is the best one to get within the following parameters:

1) Reliable, I want the new engine to go at least 100k miles without blowing up.

2) Daily driver, I'd like a modest increase in power over my 305, not looking for a racer.

3) New, I don't want a used or rebuilt one.

4) Not too expensive.

5) Easy swap, I don't want to have to replace all the parts in my car to accomodate a new engine.

I'm thinking of getting a new GM 350. Is that wise, or is there a better alternative?

Also, how much will this cost me?

Thanks!
John

92 zzz28

Based soley on your above parameters, I would say a GMPP ZZ4 crate engine. Not too expensive, modest power output. And it is all new, assembled by GM. I think it has a one year warranty to boot.

GM does offer a "Goodwrench" service engine. It is a 350 that is all new but does not offer a few goodies that the ZZ4 has. Maybe that is more along the lines of what you are looking for. Basic motor is all you get there. But either should last for many years as long as YOU take care of it...Good luck...

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I would say 350HO crate engine. Even set up tame it will still run well into the 13's. I got a 12.93 and a 12.88 out of mine bone stock.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

"...oil intake gasket ..."????

I think the first thing you need to replace is your mechanic...

LUVmy92

572C.I. BIG BLOCK with a 400H.P. fogger setup! Oh I guess the list said not too expensive darn. Yeah 350HO or ZZ4 prefer a ZZ4 but the HO is cheaper.

Is the oil intake gasket next to the flux capacitor or the muffler bearing? I never can remeber.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

ROTFLMFAO!!!

johnblacksox

Muffler bearing...very funny! :-/

Ok, ok, don't know where I got oil intake gasket. He mentioned the oil pan, maybe it's that gasket. Or maybe the head gasket. I dunno.

Anyway, thanks for the info...

What does the "HO" designation mean on the 350? Is there a plain 350 and an HO 350?

Would a 350 HO just drop right in to replace my 305, or would I need to change any other parts?

What are the pros/cons of the ZZ vs the 350HO?

John

raefon

Do you need to maintain all smog, etc? If so, the simplest swap might be to find a 91 or 92 Z28 with an L98 and all accessories. Could probably find one fairly inexpensive and have a rebuild done. Would proabably still come out cheaper than a crate motor after all of the 'extras'.

Just my opinion.

92 zzz28

Just about any small block engine will "bolt" into your car.

The HO stands for High Output.

The HO is less than the ZZ4.

ZZ4, forged crank, 10:1 CR, 4 bolt block, it would probably be fine if you have to pass emissions. The cam is mild (roller), but you would notice a very definate improvement over stock. Comes with aluminum heads, the old L98 'vette heads.

HO, iron crank, 9:1 CR, 4 bolt block, less cam and is flat tappet, again would be okay for emission purposes. Comes with iron Vortec heads.

I would say either would be just fine. The ZZ would give you a little better foundation to build on if that is your plan. If you just want to intall it, go for the HO, but beware that it has Vortec heads and thus requires an intake designed for Vortec heads. No biggie, there are TPI base manifolds that will bolt to it.

Here are your prices from gmpartsdirect.com
ZZ4: 3569.30 PN-245029609
HO: 3213.00 PN-12496968

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You say, "5) Easy swap, I don't want to have to replace all the parts in my car to accomodate a new engine."

And, "2) Daily driver, I'd like a modest increase in power over my 305, not looking for a racer."

Plus, "4) Not too expensive."

Principle #1: "Tell me how much money you have, I'll tell you how fast you can go." Or, put another way, "There ain't no free lunch."
Principle #2: You can't take out the 305 from the LG4 package, put another, larger engine in its place, and go faster/cheaper/etc.

And you want to attempt to violate these principles because you have an oil leak? Oh, well, to each his own.

Well, some of details, anyway:
LG4 suffers from restrictive exhaust, restrictive air cleaner, performance-NOT cam. With small valve heads to boot. Even if you put a 350 engine in there, you must replace the entire exhaust system and the air cleaner. That violates your Condition #5. However, if you really mean what you say in Condition #2, just doing the exhaust and air cleaner will accomplish #2. Add a cam replacement and head work-over that includes larger valves, better valve springs and some porting (or new World Products S/R Torquer 305 heads), and in the process most likely fixing the oil leak, gee, all of your objectives have been met. Hmmm, come to think of it, that's what I did to my '86 LG4...

Now, about a plain old 350 like the L98 vs. an "HO" 350 - the HO 350 has what are known as Vortec heads. They require a special intake manifold. If you are willing to buy the intake manifold along with the engine, and replace the exhaust and air cleaner as I said above, your goals will also be met. That is assuming you don't have to go through a strict emissions testing inspection, because even though a Vortec intake is available that has mounting provision for the EGR valve, the EGR valve won't work unless you route a pipe from the headers (that you are going to get because the LG4 exhaust is terrible) to the intake manifold - which requires some fabrication and again violates your Condition #5. The L98 requires a slight intake manifold modification or a '87-LG4-style intake, but that's all (other than exhaust and air cleaner).

You could also opt for the GM Goodwrench 350, but you'd have to replace the LG4 air cleaner and entire exhaust in order to let it run, and it has a cam and heads that are as bad as the LG4. But, it would probably have a little more power than the LG4 and last a long time, as long as you replaced the air cleaner and the entire exhaust.

Did I mention that the LG4 air cleaner and entire exhaust have got to go in order for you to realize any power improvement? Notice not once did I say you have to replace the LG4 carb or distributor, because none of the suggested mods require that (nor would benefit from that).

johnblacksox

57-kid,

Thanks for the advice...

Just to clarify, I'm not blindly swapping engines because of an oil leak. I've had my 305 for 17 years, it's starting to have gasket problems that my mechanic said would cost about $700 to fix.

I'm still going to drive it as is until it dies, but I want to have a plan ahead of time for what I'm going to do when it goes. Rather than drop $700 into a 17 year old 305, I think it makes more sense to get a new engine at that time.

I'm not racing my car, it's a daily driver. My 305 has decent enough pickup for me. I have fun driving it, although I know it's slow compared to other 3rd gen setups. So it's not 300HP, but better than most generic 4-cyl cars of today. I assume that any new 350 that I would get, even the lamest, would have much more power than my '86 305. That's fine with me. A bare bones 350 may seem slow to you, but it would seem like a hot rod to me.

I don't work on my car, so I want an engine that would be a relatively easy swap. The less I need to have done, the better, and the cheaper.

I don't have a hard budget. Ballpark, I'd like to spend less than $5,000-ish for the entire project, including new exhuast. But keep in mind that I need to pay a mechanic to do all the work on it, so I'm saving no money by doing any of this by myself or by a buddy. I'm willing to pay more to avoid potential hassles down the road. The last thing I want is to get a powerful new engine and blow out the drive shaft, transmission, rear end, etc etc. I want this to be as easy and painless as possible.

I want the new engine to last a long time. Like 100,000 miles. I don't want to go through an engine swap every 3 years.

I understand that I'll need to get new Y-pipe, exhaust, etc. I've read on these boards that that is the biggest drawback of the LG4s. When I get a new engine, I'll go for the headers, 3" exhaust, etc.

I'd also plan on replacing my 17 year old q-jet with a nice new carb.

Hope that makes sense. I'm just starting to learn about car/engine/mechanical stuff, so these boards are helpful to me. Sorry for the newbie-like questions, I'm trying to learn!

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like a Goodwrench plain 350 or a 350 HO is the way to go.

John

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

for $5000 you could swap in a new l98 with all components. ever think of that? you could go with the fuel injection and have way better fuel economy, better reliability, and more power...for about the same money as a good carb setup. just get the injection system and wiring harness from www.thirdgenresource.com ...then slap that on a new 350 long block. yeah, it will be a more extensive swap, but way better off in the long run.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Why would you spend $5,000 to swap an L98 into a car?

BlackcamaroIROC

for $5000 you could build a 600 HP 355

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

yeah, but he's looking for a reliable motor to get him around everyday with a little more punch then the 305. he doesn't seem to want to do the work himself though. for $5000, he could pay someone to put a BRAND NEW L98 in his car. that is what i am saying....

pauldaniel26

Q-Jets get pretty good gas mileage if you ask me.

BlackcamaroIROC

for $1000 you could build yourself a BRAND NEW L98 with all the reliability of a new stock motor and pay maybe another $1000 to have someone put it in. Anyone who spends $5000 on a stock motor or a crate motor has too much cash and too little brains. if he's got $5000 he can buy something with ALOT MORE PUNCH than an L98. you set $3000 aside, buy a 350 block, bore it out to 355, put a forged bottom end in, get a nice cam, nice iron heads to match the cam, TPI units go for $300 on ebay complete with computer, have someone put it together for him and drop it in and tune it for lthat money and have all the reliability of a mild motor with 400 HP on tap. Goodwrench 250 HP 350s are only $1200 if he really wants to stay stock.

92 zzz28

Did you catch the part in to orginal post where he states he wants new, reliable, and a little more performance? He specifically states he is not looking for anything racey. He want a nice daily driver with 300 HP or so.

As admirable as you suggestion are, it is not really what he is looking for. He wants to buy a new engine, install it, and forget about it.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

my point was that if he has $5000 he could pay someone to put a brand-new motor with brand-new everything together for him and install. i didn't say he had to spend every last penny of the $5000 did i???

Black363IROCZ

it's misleading, he said $1200 is all you need for a goodwrench 350

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Simmer down, boys. You aren't helping anybody but your own cyber-egos.

Sox apparently doesn't want to do the work himself. He wants something with decent power but to keep it a daily driver. The Goodwrench 350 has disadvantages, especialy when going in place of an '86 LG4, as does the L98. In reality, the ZZ4 might be the better choice, as long as little things like exhaust and air cleaner are upgraded at the same time. No matter what, the person doing the install had better understand it is not going to be a "bolt-in".

If you're going to spend in the neighborhood of $3000-$5000 (a Goodwrench engine installed by a shop with exhaust upgrades is going to run at least $3000), and all you want is better power with equivalent reliability, you might as well give your car to a shop that is willing to rebuild and upgrade your engine, have them rebuild the 305 with a good aftermarket cam like the Crane 2050 Compucam, work over the heads as mentioned before, with the exhaust (all at the same time), all of your objectives will be met.

All of them.

That would run about $3000, with a higher stall torque converter (necessary with a cam like the 2050, helpful even with a lesser cam).

(I can't believe I'm recommending rebuilding a 305, but this seems like one of those rare appropriate times for it.)

johnblacksox

57kid and 92zzz28, sounds like you understand where I'm coming from, thanks for the help.

The comments from some other people that I'm crazy to buy a new crate engine are missing the point. I'm not a mechanic, so I'm not doing any of this work myself. I have a hard enough time finding a shop to do good and timely basic work on my car, the thought of finding a place to rebuild my 305 makes my head hurt thinking about it.

I definitely want this process to be as easy as possible, I don't want to have a place tear apart and rebuild my 305 only to have some problem with it a month later. I like the idea of a new engine with some sort of warranty.

You say that a new 350 wouldn't be a bolt in, are you just talking about the air intake and exhaust? How about emissions? Also, you say that there are disadvantages to the 350 replacing the 305 LG4, what are those?

Seems like my main choices are:
1) Goodwrench 350, which people here seem to think is pretty crappy. On the plus side, it's the cheapest, and if it seems a lot better than my existing 305 LG4, I couldn't complain about that.

2) 350 HO, more expensive than the Goodwrench 350, but sounds like people like that engine. $3200 compared to $1200 for the Goodwrench 350. If it's much better, I'm willing to pay the extra for it.

3) ZZ4, which is probably close to or over the limit I'd be willing to spend. This might be overkill for me.

My goal isn't to spend $5000, that was just a ballpark figure for about how much I'm willing to spend on the entire process. I doubt I'd be able to get any engine installed along with new exhaust, carb, etc for much less than $5000.

Also, I don't want to change from carb to FI. I'm fine with buying a new and better carb for the new engine to replace my old q jet.

John

Irocster

I was just looking on the Scoggin-Dickey website at these engines. Just wondering which goodwrench engine you guys are talking about. I don't see anything for the late 80's-early 90's camaro/firebird....I have an '89 Camaro 350 TPI, so if I were to get a goodwrench engine, which would I get? Also, are there any other good websites to look at GM crate engines? Here is what I am talking about:

http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...tart&catid=123

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Irocster, you might consider this one http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=128&pid=105 . Some guys have gotten it, and were happy with the results. Not spectacular, but better than the 305 was.

Sox, it's a little harder to recommend something for your specific application. I'd stay away from the HO, those Vortec heads cause "issues" all their own. But, it could be done.

The Goodwrench won't be a bolt-in because of the flexplate. But, if the installer has any clue at all, that won't be a problem (just get one for '82-'85 3rd gen auto application). The other things will just restrict the 350 from producing the power that it is capable of making.

In truth, rebuilding the engine will be more likely to be done right than the "tearing apart" that is required to remove and install the engine. I think you're assuming too much about the rebuild itself - there are probably more people that could do the rebuild than there are that can do the "basic" stuff you're talking about. Most shops that do engine work will offer a warranty of some sort, just pick one that will.

You might consider going to a dealer and having them estimate it. They might recommend this engine http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...tid=127&pid=96 , which isn't a great performer, but will be better than a tired engine. You seem more interested in reliability than outright performance, so you might consider it. The other engine I linked above doesn't have provision for your mechanical fuel pump, otherwise it would work as well (an electric pump would solve that problem). Or, the dealer might actually rebuild your 305. If you want better performance, just ask them to put in a better cam (you could probably buy one from Summit before you take the car in, and they'd install it during the rebuild). Do the exhaust and the rest of the stuff later.

One last possibility: This shortblock http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...=620&catid=514 , with new World S/R Torquer or Prolightning heads, assembled and installed by a compentent shop. That would come closest to being a "bolt-in". Would still need cam. Also the air cleaner and exhaust to get the best performance out of it.

Irocster

Yeah, that's what I thought. I heard the heads are terrible on that engine though. So if I went to the dealer to ask for an engine, what is it they would tell me to go with? Since there isn't an actual "L98 crate engine", what is it they would recommend, an engine for a car different than mine? That doesn't really make sense. I though GM had a full replaecment engine for all of their cars.

I am considering a re-build. I got quoted at a local performance shop www.jmsracing.com and they start at $1500. We'll see.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The heads keep the Caprice longblock from being better. That's why the L98 shortblock with aftermarket replacement or upgrade replacement heads is a possibility.

The dealer isn't required to have replacement engines for cars as old as ours. So, they stick to what is profitable. You can still do pretty decent all things considered. Aftermarket has picked up where the factory leaves off.

If the $1500 includes install, that's pretty good.

Irocster

No, that $1500 is just starting. This place won't install the engine at all, which kinda sucks. I would rather pull the engine and put it back in myself but I don't have the tools or the room (tiny garage) to do it. So with goodie parts, the engine should be at least $2000 and the peripherals another $800 (including headers) and the install another $500-1000. Wow, that adds up fast.

dennis6

The Vortec 350 is about $2300 dollars from www.sdpc2000.com.
Emmisions is the only problem I see with this engine. The intake manifold is no biggy, just order it when you order the engine. Its not really that much more than any other decent SBC manifold. If you have emmisions forget about this engine.
Keep your carb, the computer controlled quadrajet is better than any of the non computer controlled carbs. If you have emmisions forget about ditching the carb.
You can drive around with the stock exhaust and aircleaner, it will kill performance though. Go with holley emmision legal headers if you want to pass emmisions they come with a y pipe. If you don't have emmisions go with hedmans and buy the y-pipe. Thats the cheapest route.

In your case the goodwrench motor would probably be your best bet. Just order the pre-86 flexplate. Its no big deal. You will also need an intake manifold for the pre 86 style heads. This is also cheap. The engine reportedly makes 260 hp with headers , which is better than the L98. I know this is gonna cause a flame war, but I seen it from a site willing to provide dyno slips for an extra charge.

Personally I can't stand the caprice motor, word is that they make worse power than the goodwrench motor.

dennis6

Salle Chevrolet offers a better cam version of the Goodwrench motor with an intake and a 8 inch balancer for 1995 dollars.
The engine produces 285hp and they are willing to back it up with a dyno for an extra cost.

Specs:
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Chev...8s/gen350.html

Price:
For the price do a serch on their website for SC285GW.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You're getting caught in the "HP Rating Trap".

L98 is rated net at the flywheel, meaning all normally-power accessories operating (water pump, alternator), and through the same exhaust as the car into which it will be installed.

Crate HP ratings are gross at the flywheel. No alternator, often no water pump, full-length open headers, velocity stack on the carb.

A 260 HP gross rating is about 220 net at best, perhaps no more than 200 as-installed (certainly less with LG4 exhaust).

The Caprice engine will make less power with TPI than the Goodwrench will with carb & good exhaust. So? That doesn't make the engine worse. I'm kind of partial to roller lifters and one-piece rear main seal myself. I'd dump the heads, they're what really hold it back. Goodwrench aren't much better.

chev496

WEll, if it were my car. First, do you need to pass emmisions? If you dont, go around to small shops who is very reputable. Usually, they are in contact with a machine shop. Many machine shops build just regular 355 sbc and set them aside. Just regualr engines, little cam producing around 300 hp. HaVe that shop do get the motor and put it in along with an exhuast. Jus tmake sure it is reputable, as an engine like that will probly cost less than any gm perf. engine and be just as reliable. The shop should take care of everything for you and you should have no worries. Just call around and ask. Even sometimes shops get next to brand new 350-305 in cars that have next to zero miles on them. Just make sure if you are going to have a 300hp engine in your car that your drivetrain will hold up. Especially if it is a auto. Be sure to have your fuild change and make sure its not burnt or anything. That would be what i do with my car, but then again, i do work at a small automotive shop. He he.

rwendt

You can get an 1991 L98 remanufactured 350 from Advanced auto parts for $1069.00 plus about $300.00 for core charge. This comes with a 1 year guarentee. This engine comes without the tin - pan, valve covers, timing gear cover, so you would have to swap these items off of the 305. Advanced Auto parts also has what they call a blueprinted 1991 L98 remanufactured 350 that comes with the tin, is run on a dyno and comes with a spec sheet, for $1599.00 plus core charge. This engine has a 2 year warrenty
(Advanced Auto Parts sometimes has these engines on sale. Last year, at one time, the base 91 L98 350 described, above, was only $969.00.)

91DropTopTA

You might want to check these guys out. I got a 300HP brand new gm 350 with a TPI cam for about 1900 from these guys. I really wanted to drop more money on a vortec head 350 from scoggin dickey, but didn't have the extra cash. I have really loved this motor and it comes with a good warranty. The car runs hard and gets pretty good gas milage in my daily driver. If you want some more info, I can dig out the paper work that came with it.


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=175033

SweetS10v8

johnblacksox: are you atttached to the car? Ive seen lots of comments on change like you suggested, but have you ever thought of taking your car and selling it? $5000 will buy you a nice 3rd gen. Then subtract whatever you get for your car. This involves no work being done to anything!!!!

I got my car for $2500 and its a 350 TPI, runs like a top, gets 24mpg on the highway, starts in the cold. I just put a quick $1000 paint job onto it and have a very nice car, I think for $3500.

johnblacksox

91DropTop: Thanks! I'll check that out...

SweetS10V8: Nice car. My '86 Camaro is my first and only car (bought it new), so I'm attached to it, and I'll blow irrational amounts of money to keep it running for as long as I can! :-)

Being an '86, I need to pass emissions. Would that be a problem with any of the new GM engines, like 350, 350HO, ZZ4?

Assuming I end up replacing my 305 LG4 with something that gets 260-300+ HP, would I need to upgrade my 700R4 transmission? Or any other drivetrain parts?

dunerida82

This guy needs an engine to get from Point A to Point B. He needs something simple. You aint him, and he aint you. Stop telling him what YOU would do. Just answer his questions so he can drive again. Chill back folks.

DigitalMonarch0

agreed:rockon: