StealthElephant

How do most people go about making 500HP at the crank (not flywheel) naturally aspirated with EFI?


Whats the head/cam/compression that seems to do it for a 383 or 350 while still being "streetable"?

Is there such a thing as a 500HP "street" motor? (ignoring emissions that is)

Can an LT1 support that? Is aftermarket EFI required?

TexasLT1

LT1 can definitely support it with the stock ECM. Its going to be a little tougher to do it with a stock short block but it can definitely be done. A set of fully ported heads, large cam, full length headers, and a good dyno tune could get you there. I'm toying with the idea of building a 396 LT1, makes it a little easier to hit the 500 mark. If you want to do it with an LT1, check camaroz28.com.


As for a standard SBC, once again, its going to be in the heads and cam. Look at some of the magazine builds and they've made far more than that. It just depends on your budget and the combination of parts. Its definitely been done many times before.

StealthElephant

Well whats considered a "big" cam? I would think 280 duration @ .50 is the biggest I would want to go (or around that) in order to maintain streetability and low end power.

AFR heads seem to be THE choice when it comes to making power. I've always been told that compression ratio = power, but I was thinking of an engine build around 9.5:1 CR (compared to the 10.7:1 I have right now), some REALLY good heads ( I dont' care the price) and a reasonable cam.

LT1 is my first choice right now since I would get the block, and EFI all at once. I would throw away the rotating assembly, all aftermarket crank/rods/pistons etc etc.

I want my 2nd engine build to be a top of the line build.

I was going to go ATI to get 500HP "easy", but I've been noticing alot of guys dynoing 400RWHP NA w/o boost or juice, and that really sounds appealing since it's cheaper and wouldn't require me to deal with all the complexities that forced induction brings, at the same time going NA means alot more care when selecting parts.

TexasLT1

I think you could do it with a 280 duration cam, definitely have to go over .500" lift. I can't see it being done with a 9.5 compression ratio though, I think it'd have to be over 10. Then again, thats just my thinking, not real sure about that.

If you are going to get a new rotating assembly anyway, definitely go 383 at the minimum, if not 396. That will just make it that much easier to hit the mark.

86_cali_ta

I don't think it makes sense and it will probably be next to impossible to build a 500hp LT1 with 9.x to one compression. You can safely go at least 10.5 to one on pump gas I'm sure. You've got to think 500hp out of 350 cubic inches, you'll definately lose some streetability. If you decide to get some more cubes out of that block, however, all your numbers will go up without losing driveability. In theoery anyway

F-BIRD'88

500 N/A hp is certainily possible.

406 cubic inches 10.5:1 compression

AFR 220's, Brodix Ported track 1's, or Protopline
lighting 220's are up to the bill.

A Solid roller cam about 244 at .050" and .630 lift
A TPIS mini ram intake and F.A. S. T. EFI management.

Long tube hooker headers.

Your Protopline 906 vortecs could get you there but will require full porting, larger valves and flow bench verification.

A TPIS MINI RAM-III or a Modded GM RAMJET EFI manifold
would go with the Vortecs.

86IROCNJ

I'm not a thread hijacker, just want to see what some of you guys would recommend for me. Because currently TPIS claims i would have close to 455hp/435lb/ft at the crank. Yeah right! Wishfull thinking i know, but what would you reccomend for a setup like mine to get closer to 500hp n/a and 425hp+ to the wheels? Currently i have the fastburn crate motor with the lt4 hot cam, and the MR3. Now, for me to get close to 500hp n/a out of this zz4 block and "stock" fastburn heads, what could i use to get me closer? I was looking at the comp cams XR288HR. Also, a step up to the 58mm instead of the 52mm i have now. Maybe some 30lb/hr injectors, custom prom/dyno/wbo2 tuning, and probally a step up from my 2800vig to a 32-3600 stall. Or, i would like to have a t56 by the time i feel like tearing this motor down. Head work would be done as well i would think to get this done, although GM claims these heads can support more than 500hp "out of the box". Anything major i am leaving out? Basically i am looking at head work and bigger cam on a stock 350 zz4 block with some other things to work well with it. Any input? I would like to do it with the "350" effect but i know i would get much more out of a nice 383, 385, 396, ect. setup. So do you think its possible with the 350? The block should be able to support it, if it can't, then i would not tear down the shortblock just to put in stronger parts for a 350, i would just do a stroker set up. if you read through all of that BS, thanks! later

edit: on the exhaust side, i currently have LTs and a 4" exhaust. So that should 500 crank hp.

pskel350

500 n/a is very possible. There a lot of people running around with AFR headed 383's with roller cams, that are making 500 n/a hp (at the crank). and they can be driven on the street without thinking twice!

86IROCNJ, you are not the first person that i have heard say that TPIS falls short on there hp expectations, this being one of the reasons i might not ever consider them for a FI setup of my own. I dont know what you really need, but i would think a bigger cam, 58mm TB, 30lbs injectors would be a must. and of course headwork would be good

hope it all works out for you

F-BIRD'88

The GM fastburns can get you there but not in out of the box form.

They don't flow near what GM claims as you get them.
But the basic port shape is there and the chamber is good.

Full porting and larger valves will get you there.

You'll want to be in the 270/280cfm range at least.

Again a solid roller of about 244@.050 duration and .600+ lift is enough
Your ZZ4 crate motor should be disassembled and brought up to spec. (block decking etc.)
You want a true 10.5:1 cr with tight quench clearance.

What you get on a dyno in corrected sea level figures and what you get in the car are two different things.

Thats where the men are separated from the also rans.

It's all about details. The exhaust system is very important.

On a street driven car a large cubic inch low rpm based motor is desired because you hit your power goal at a lower rpm than a smaller 350based motor with the same heads and induction system. Street car power accessories and the 700r4 trans really suck up power at high rpm. so your high rpm 350ci 500hp motor gets cut back a lot more by the accessories than a lower rpm 500hp 406ci motor.

the 406 based motor gets away with a much milder torque converter and rear gear too.

86IROCNJ

Thanks for the replies guys. I hope to go with another cam and 58mm tb in the spring and do a comparison of the two. Then i think i am done for a while. Pretty much wherever i look for info, the basic truth of it is, the more cubes the better. So until i have the cash for a whole new rotating assembly, i'll stick with what i have. Its plenty. We'll see how far i can go with the 350 and take it from there. First off i need to get my suspension down before anything! No point in having some power if it will not plant itself. later

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Heh I hope you mean 280* advertised duration...

And you dont need an LT1 to make horsepower, its just going to add to the cost of the buildup when you want a set of good heads.

A friend of mine made 527 horsepower with:
355
10.8:1 compression
Solid Roller Cam
Ported Sportsman 2 heads
Long tube headers

Car Craft made 540 horsepower with:
350
over 11:1 if i remember correctly
out of the box E-tec 200 heads
a large solid flat tappet camshaft

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

And if you wanted to make some serious horsepower and are willing to spend some money, I would go:

406ci
GM High Port 18* heads
11.5:1 compression
Large Solid Roller Camshaft
Big induction setup

A friend of mine made 737 horsepower all motor with that combo but with 13.5:1 compression, so i would imagine 650+ would be possible. Just remember 18* heads will dictate every part you buy for the motor.

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

I dont have any dyno numbers but I think that i'm close to that number, here is a list of what my engine consist of: However it has not been on a true dyno: But DD2000 and EA 2.0 has produce some very close # for this engine.

My SBC 409

Engine: 400 SBC ID# 330817/14y139664/ T0508CSU
(4.125 bore X 3.750 stroke) after .040 bore (4.165 bore x 3.75 stroke =408)
Deck Plate Bored, Mains Align Honed, Block Deck .002, Deck Plug Holes & Tap w/3/16 Holes, Starter Bolt Drilled, Front Three Gallery Plugs Tap for 1/4 Pipe Plugs.

Crank: Scat 9000 Crank 3.750 6.00, Internally Balance, Part# 400-3750-6000

Bearing: Clevite– MS1038P Mains and CB663P Rods

Piston: Wiseco Pistons, .040 over, 5.4cc; 430 grams, Part# PT020H4

Rods: Eagle ESP 4340 H-Rods 6.0, Part# CRS6000B3D

Block: Zero Deck: 0.002

Compression Ratio: Static-10:44 Dynamic-8:27

Cam: Grind: Solid Lunati/ (Recommended by Harold Brookshire)
280/284F10 .525/.530 Lift, 247/251@.050, 159/162 at .200, .560/.565 valve lift(1.6), Beats the Comp Cam 294S hands down. Pro-Street power with an extra 5* at .200"
2500-7000 RPM, Advance Cam 4* Degrees as Per Harold, .026" Valve Lash Hot, Adjustment Range: .018" to .030" Hot.

Heads: AFR 195 Part# 1035 w/23º valve angle, 74cc, drilled steam holes
Springs for Solid Cam- 130-135 Seat and 325-330 Open 280/284F10

Head Gasket: Fel-Pro-1014 / .039 in. compressed thickness, 4.200 in. bore, 9.0 cc compressed volume

Intake: Edelbrock RPM #7101

Carb: Holley 750 Vac Sec.

Rear End Gear: 3:73

Transmission: Pro-Built Street/Strip 700R4

Stall Converter: A.C.T. 3000 Stall

Exhaust: Hooker Super Comp headers 1 5/8 Headers part # 2460-1 ceramic coated;
Hooker Super Competition high flow cat-back exhaust system, Intermediate pipe: 3 in.
* Tail pipe diameter: 2 1/2 in.
* Dual tail pipes out the rear under the bumper
*Will upgrade to 1 ¾ Hooker #2210-1

* Other Items that will add to the numbers and strengthen the block:

ARP Main Studs:
Milodon Windage Tray
Milodon Oil Pan #30900
Crane Energizer Roller Rockers

fb305svs

well my motor combo is in the sig... a better cam selection could probably get me into the 450 range on a ZZ3

nosfed454

if you want alot of power sell the sb and get in to big blocks.
my two motors are 454 chevy
and 455 Buick
i love them.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Big blocks arent exactly ideal motors for third generation camaros as far as dimensions go, especially since you can get small block motors upwards of 427-454 cubic inches nowdays.

Daz

iTrader: (1)

define "ideal dimentions"?


Daz

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

They are far too large for a thirdgen's engine compartment. Not saying it cant be done, I have seen plenty of clean installs, but most didnt have windshield wipers and werent worried about changing spark plugs, or fitting a hood on it .

Daz

iTrader: (1)

well I can tell you that the wipers fit but you cant take the washer motor off without pulling the wiper motor off.It also fit nicely.You know that its only 2" wider right?And I dunno where you get your info but its easier to change plugs with a BBC.Everything from the top.It takes about 15 minutes to replace all 8.Please dont give out false imformation.

Daz

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I am getting my information from Hot Rod Magazine:
Hot Rod Magzine on BBC swap into 3rdgen:

Most swaps

are mechanically easy to complete, but almost all of them suffer from

overheating and fuel delivery problems. These cars are essentially bottom

breathers with little or no front grille to admit cooling air. The engine

fits rather snugly and even the heavy-duty factory radiator is hard-pressed

to keep its cool under normal driving conditions. Increased cooling

capacity via the use of special aftermarket radiators (available from

Modine or custom built by local sources) is essential not only to maintain

proper engine operating temperatures, but also to help prevent high

underhood temperatures that cause fuel percolation, vapor lock, and rapid

deterioration of underhood components such as belts and hoses.

As shown in the accompying charts, the engine is a bolt-in using stock

brackets and frame mounts. A low profile intake manifold and air cleaner

are neccessary to maintain adequate hood clearance. Spark plug access and

steering gear clearance is tight, and the distributer requires a slight

clearance dimple on the firewall to facilitate easy installation and

removal. Late-model HEI distributors won't fit without making significant

alterations to the firewall. The stock throttle cable is long enough, but

you may need longer radiator hoses depending on your selection of

radiators.

Daz

iTrader: (1)

I dont see anything there about wiper motors or BBC's being "far too large for a thirdgen's engine compartment".And that plug comment just tells me that its either you own a 4 cyl Caravan or havent seen a BBC in a thirdgen in person.The article is also inacurate about needing to clearance the firewall for the distributor.Facts only please.


Daz

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I made the wiper comment because the majority of aftermarket valve covers (tall) wont clear the wiper motors. How are these not facts, this is Hot Rod magazine. Just because you didnt encounter a problem during a particular swap doesnt mean someone else wont.

And with the power numbers that small block engines put out nowadays, there needs to be a damn good reason to stick a rat motor in there.

Daz

iTrader: (1)

Somebody throw this guy a line.Factory valve covers are MOSTLY short..What you said are not facts.

First you dont have facts,second you didnt have a reason..so why did you even commented on something that you dont have a clue about..Again what you said were not facts

Daz

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

How do I not have facts? Should I trust the word of someone on a forum over a magazine that has been around for decades?

Daz

iTrader: (1)

the point is what you said wasnt even on the article!!..anyways happy reading cause Im done here...lol

Daz

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Me:
They are far too large for a thirdgen's engine compartment.
Article:
1.) but almost all of them suffer from overheating
2.) These cars are essentially bottom breathers with little or no front grille to admit cooling air
3.) The engine fits rather snugly and even the heavy-duty factory radiator is hard-pressed to keep its cool under normal driving conditions
4.)high underhood temperatures that cause fuel percolation, vapor lock, and rapid deterioration of underhood components such as belts and hoses.

Me:
and werent worried about changing spark plugs
Article:
Spark plug access and steering gear clearance is tight

As for the wiper motors, that is something i picked up from talking to people who have done the swap (all with aftermarket valve covers).

Me:
I made the wiper comment because the majority of aftermarket valve covers (tall) wont clear the wiper motors
You:
Factory valve covers are MOSTLY short..What you said are not facts.

I dont think you read a word I said...

nosfed454

yes sure you can build up small blocks to way over 400 or 406 but you get in to more money- also run a custom hood with a 454 to bring in more cold air/ it seems to me the air in front of the wind shield is gonna have less road dust. and with aluminum heads on the bb and lets say you ditch some other stuff like PS PB AC and a long list of small stuff then it gets kinda light.
we have 2 third gens- one will be a 454 bb and the other will get a 406 sb.
do you think a old 283 could run nos on a stock bottom end like the old 283s had thick pistons or a 262 /267 in other words would any of them stay together with stock crank pistons & rods with NOS use
as for me im gonna ditch the PS box on use the box off a chevy s10 truck.
we are reading what you say. and i guess some people do have them problems. dont know the full story like who knows maybe they had AC on the car that could make it hot

nosfed454

facts my guess is some facts could change from one build up to the next.

Daz

iTrader: (1)

Stock IROC radiator and stock dual fans ran by a Hayden adjustable switch."Too large" and "snug" are too different things.And you think a 427 small block making 500HP will run cooler than a 427 BBC?lol.


Dont believe everything you read.That article is old when the headers made for it are probably just prototypes.

BTW you can easily use wipers from a half ton pickup and still use the tall vave covers that your friends use..

Obviously you havent done the swap before,maybe if you did you would understand the article better..Theres a difference between FACT and INTERPRETATION


Daz

nosfed454

this is just my view but it seems to me that magazines have alot of stuff to sell, it would take alot of money to build a small block to much more than a 406.
as for me i like to build it from used parts, seems every time i put down a magazine i want some new and expensive parts that the magazine is selling.it's like the magazine is tempting me to want to spend more and more. thats why i don't read magazines that much. i like to build low dollar cars. i like all the v8 chevys small and large

fb305svs

I dunno bout cooling issues!!! this summer, there were many days i had the a/c cranked, and running in stop and go traffic on the highway and i never saw anything about 190 out of my stock radiator, with only the single fan system!

only real mod to the cooling system was a 185* stat with two 1/8" holes drilled in it...

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

ok, now that we are done talking about wiper motors lets get back to 500hp N/A. With the technology now its easier than 5-10 years ago. I remember when 1hp per cubic inch was a big deal, heck and I'm only 25 yrs old. I hope to be close, this is just a guess with my 406. I am probably closer to 475, it needs tuned. I am only speculating. After talking to brent at total engine airflow last week. I think I am going to pull my heads this winter, have them flowed, and pick a better cam. He said somewhere around 248/254@050 and about .600 lift would be more what I need, and maybe a victor jr. I am running a ported high rise dual plane now.
I think with that cam, I'd have around 540, again this is speculation and maybe some wishful thinking. I am going with a bigger stall, 3600 or so, and probably keep my 3.23's.
But I won't know till I hit the dyno.
I run 7.8's right now on street tires and no suspension work in a T top car. I'm gonna break a t top if I don't get some SFC's soon.

I have read about alot of AFR headed 383's with about 11:1 that pull 500hp.

Oh, and about the 280@.050 thing earlier, I was thinking, wow this guy is nuts too

oh, and at the crank, and at the flywheel is the same thing.

nosfed454

yes i agree it seems more and more motors come out now with more than one HP per CI like the 231 CU turbo it has 300 HP . why did the buick get that and not the camaro? third gens got stuck with 4 cylinders and lots of v6 s , but that what they had to do to sell cars i guess and its fine for me , insurance is cheaper on 4 & 6 cylinder cars.
7.8s ETs on street tires. they must be some good street tires to run 7.8s ETs what is the name brand of you're tires?
yes heads is a good place to gain power. solid lifters?

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

the tires are 255/50/16 pep boy ultra Z radials. I do a short burnout and cut 1.84 60 fts. I can launch the car harder but it starts doing the mexican hat dance and the rear view mirrior came off last time at the track, hit me in the head which almost made me loose it. I have 34/26 sway bars on it, worn out V6 struts on the front, warn out shocks on the back(thats what was on the car when I got it)WS6 springs up front, and WS6 springs in the back that are getting soft. No SFC's, LCA's, brackets or anything. I have a good convertor which helps with my short times too.

nosfed454

That sounds good to me, sounds like you built a really nice car.
my mirror fell off to 2 or 3 years ago then this past summer the windshield got a crack in it from the top down a little past the mirror. kinda think it was from the heat. you're car sure sounds fast.
and makes me wish for a 406,well with a 3600 stall will you drive that around on the street? or do you change converters.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the complement. the car runs ok, there's alot faster out there. Yeah, I will drive it with a 3600 stall, with the stall I have now, it stalls 2800-3000, you honestly can't tell its in there tell you step on it. convertor technology is so much more than is used to be, a good 9.5 or 10 in is the only way to go

nosfed454

That converter sounds good, my one car has the 700r4 with a lock in converter but the lock in part don't work, what is the name brand of you're convertor? the one you have now and the one you're gonna get.
well i was a member of iroc-zpost. most of the guys there say 12s and 13s are way fast, they got kinda mad at me when i told them that it seems to me that the old muscle cars of the early to mid 1960s could turn 10s with some slicks on the back and maybe afew other mods. they told me no way not doable then he told me FI was better then carbs for racing. so i got out of that car club and came here to this one. i only seem to have a problem with guys who say things like stock is best.or think the best way to have a fast car is to buy a new one. my dad used to drag race. and i used to hang out with all the old school racers. guess thats were i got it from.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I disagree. This could be argued into the ground (which I am sure it will be), but if you ever seen vintage muscle car numbers at the track (on bias ply tires like they came with), the numbers they turn out arent always as impressive as one would think.

I have a Motor Trend magazine where they pit a 97 C5 corvette against a 67 427 Vette. The C5 corvette was rated at 345 hp, the 67 Corvette was rated at 435 hp.

However, the 67 Corvette posted a 13.8 at 110.5 mph, the C5 corvette posted a 13.2 at 109.6. These are professional driver times for Motor Trend.

nosfed454

well thats my point if you put new slicks on them they will go faster.
the old tires sure were no good at all would slide like crazy all over the place.
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...s-50fast.shtml

see the 50 fast old cars? this is just my view only could be wrong but. i think the 1960s cars just need new tires and afew other simple mods to turn ETs in the 10s
i have seen old cars with old tires my dad was a drag racer in the early 1960s

nosfed454

my guess is they want to make the new vet look good so people will pay high dollar for it. the older car may have needed the springs changed or some thing.or the gears in the rear end. i would have to know every thing about the two cars befor i could say, it just my view could be wrong.
with a few simple mods the old cars could put out 500 HP
how could a car with that much power still be slow 13s
and i did mean wide slicks. maybe you still think it's slow if i was to say put in tubs AKA wide wheel wells and really big slicks,
would it still be in the 13s ? do you think.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I will put it this way- 10 second cars trap in the 120+ mph range. The vette trapped 109. My friend's 11.4 second s10 spinning to the 1/8th mile still traps 114 on street tires and runs mid 12's.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

The converter is a ACT 9.5, I got it from probuilt automatics. I have a free stall change so thats what I am going with.
I have talked to some people who feel the vigilante is a better converter but its almost 300 bucks more.

As far as 50-60's cars running 10's on slicks. I dont believe it at all. First off are we talking stock or modded? Lets take stock first. If those cars where really as fast as everybody "remembers" them to be, why dont you see bone stock 50-60's cars running 10's on slicks now? In the stock nostalgia classes i mean, if they where that fast then, when they build them up now they should be just as fast.
As far as modded goes, no I think so either. Look at the technology that we have now compared to then, roller cams, aluminum heads(yes they had them then but not near as good) more aggressive lobes, converters, suspension parts. If you look at the past years in drag racing you will see the progression of cars getting faster. Yes FI is cool, and good in alot of ways but its expensive unless you know how to tune it yourself. I am no way flamming you just posting my opinion.
Later
Jason

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, if you have ever looked at the cam specs from the 60's they are absolutely ridiculous. Something like:

(300/310ADV, 215/224@.050, 114 LSA) lol, its pathetic. couple that with the fact that your average street/strip car had cylinder heads on it that flowed under 200 cfm and it makes you wonder...

nosfed454

he is talking 9s on this third gen have a look
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6161

nosfed454

this car is 9s and 10s they say?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6164
maybe this is were i got the idea that old cars could run high 10s
it has wide slicks on the back, and a bbc motor. i like this car, wish i had its motor in a third gen. i'll keep looking for for a third gen that runs high 10s one might come along

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I cant believe that he fit a big block and a blower under a 4" cowl hood... Is that the B&M 177?

pskel350

i have seen a few big block swaps in thirdgens...some looked amazing and some didnt Obvisouly the BB is a tighter fit then a SB. A BB will not handle as well as a SB will either. With the new technolgy it is possible to run low 11's on a fully streetable SB that will not even start to over heat while stuck in traffic. and for no more, and probably even less money then it will take to swap in a BB.

now if you camaro is an all out drag car, then the Big block is the way to go

zerotosixtyV8

you could do it with a 350 but it would NOT be cheap!

pskel350

going fast isnt cheap....

still i think it would be cheaper then to swap a big block into a thirdgen.

zerotosixtyV8

true, but witha 400+ cid motor it'd be cheaper to do 500 horse . I wouldnt recommend a BBC swap unless you were going for over 1000 HP.