Minion

Looks like I am going to be needing a new motor soon or rebuild the LO3. I have a budget of about $4k thats I have been saving up.

I would like to put more power into the car. It is driven about 5 days a week so it has to be steetable. I have never built an engine or done any engine work though I do have a fair number of tools.
I was looking at sdpc2000.com but most of those engines come ready for a carb, though I guess I could put the TBI on it. The Ramjet looks cool but is slightly out of my budget.

The car has a 700R4 trans and 3.73 rear.

Any help would be appreciated

IHI

iTrader: (1)

You can buy more good parts if you build the thing yourself since your not paying for labor. Some guys will tell ya go ahead and build it yourself, good experience, but then you take a chance of screwing soemthing up that may just be a little detail, but have diasterious results, or pay somebody that does it everyday, either crate motor or machine shop to build you one, All the machine shops in my area average about $100 for assembly of a complete engine-kind of a no brainer there

90formula5spd

hey man my opinion would b for u to get a new or used LT1, lotsa power and if u get a used one u could it it for 1500 or under... u could even get the T-56 (6 speed tranny) for another 1500 or less, and u would have a kick *** car, that is what im doing with my car right now so i just thought i would give my opinion, good luck, my LO3 is a weak piece of SHIZEN!

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

STAY AWAY FROM ALL THE MACHINE SHOP IN YOUR AREA, IF THEY CHARGE A $100.00 TO DO A COMPLETE REBUILD. There is so much into building an engine and making it last that I doubt your machine shop is covering these crucial steps to build an engine that will last. Remember anyone can bolt a engine together, but how long will it last????

READ THIS: I have posted this before what goes into building an engine and all the CLEARANCES that must be check. BTW: bring this list to your engine build and ask if these item is included in the $100.00 buildup, then you can deciede.

DO YOURSELF A HUGE FAVOR
buy these books, FIRST it will be the best money you ever spent, read them, and you will be miles ahead of the average guy. youll save thousands of dollars and thousands of hours once youve got a good basic understanding of what your trying to do!

HOW TO BUILD THE SMALL BLOCK CHEVEROLET by LARRY ATHERTON&LARRY SCHREIB

HOW TO BUILD MAX PERFORMANCE CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS ON A BUDGET by DAVID VIZARD

JOHN LINGENFELTER on modifying small-block chevy engines

how to build & modify CHEVROLET small-block V-8 CAMSHAFTS & VALVTRAINS BY DAVID VIZARD

SMOKEY YUNICK,S POWER SECRETS
SMALL BLOCK CHEVY ENGINE BUILDUPS


Heres a few ( ) things that should always be checked on an engine being rebuild

heads
are the pushrods perfectly strait?
do the pushrods flow oil?
rocker studs/guides torqued correctly?
do the head bolts have washers under the bolt heads? are they the correct length for the cylinder heads in use?
have the heads been pocket ported?
combustion chambers unshrouded?
intake ports gasket matched"
are the valve guides cut to the correct length?
are the heads pocket ported?
is the retainer to valve guide clearance correct?
are the valve guide oil seals installed?
is there valve spring seats installed?
inner damper springs installed?
spring bind height checked? (to exceed max valve lift by .050 min.)
oil return holes cleaned of casting flash?
were steam holes in heads necessary?
were the spark plug threads of a installed spark plug extending into the combustion chamber?
rocker slot to rocker stud clearances ?
retainer to valve guide clearances?
spring bind height checked for the correct spring pressure?
valve lash/preload ?
are the valve springs the correct tension,height?dia.
keeper the correct angle? style? size?
valve seats the correct angles?
valves back cut?
valves the correct length, stemsthe correct diam.
strait?
rockers the correct ratio?
were the valve to valve guide clearances checked?
were the heads milled?
did the head gasket overlap the bore?
what are your valve train clearances?
is the rocker arm geometry correct!
chambers CC,ed
port work..(some steps optional)

(1) open throat to 85%-90% of valve size
(2)cut a 4 angle seat with 45 degree angle .065-.075 wide where the valve seats and about .100 at 60 degrees below and a .030 wide 30 degree cut above and a 20 degree cut above that rolled and blended into the combustion chamber
(3)blend the spark plug boss slightly and lay back the combustion chamber walls near the valves
(4)narrow but dont shorten the valve guide
(5) open and straighten and blend the upper two port corner edges along the port roof
(6) gasket match to/with intake and raise the port roof slightly
(7) back cut valves at 30 degrees
(8) polish valve face and round outer edges slightly
(9)polish combustion chamber surface and blend edges slightly
(10) remove and smooth away all casting flash , keep the floor of the port slightly rough but the roof and walls smoothed but not polished.
(11) use a head gasket to see the max you can open the combustion chamber walls
(12) blend but don,t grind away the short side radias


block
is the oil pump pick-up mounted 3/8"-1/2" from the oil pan floor/
is the windage screen mounted about 1/8" from the rotateing assembly/
is the pick-up brazed to the pump body?
has the oil pump relief piston in the oil pump been checked for free ,easy movement? clearance? spring tension?
is the oil pump pick-up tube inserted too far into the oil pump body,(binding the gears)
has the block been clearanced for the rotating assembly?
has the block been aline honed?
is the crank strait?
are the damper install keyway and threads ok?
counter weights clearanced?
MAGNAFLUXED?
OIL PASSAGES CLEANED?
GALLERY PLUGS INSTALLED CORRECTLY?
has the cam to rod bolt clearance been checked?
piston to valve clearances checked?
piston to bore clearances?
TRUST BEARING CLEARANCE?
what were the piston ring to slot clearances?
RING GAPS?
were the rings all checked individually for end gap in the cylinders they were used/installed in?
were the rings checked to make sure the correct side faced up, and the correct ring was in each groove?
what were the back clearance on the rings?
were the oil ring expanders carefully fitted for correct drag?
were the oil ring scraper ring rails checked for end gap?
total cam lift and remaining clearanceS?
WAS THE CAM DEGREED IN?
main bearing clearances?
what is the main bearing run-out clearance
piston to head clearance? (QUENCH?)
head gasket to coolent holes checked?
magnets installed?
rod bolt to block clearances?
what tq reading is necessay to spin the crank with no rods attached?
are the rod bolts and main caps torqued correctly? (rod bolts checked with a bolt stretch gauge?)
did you check the block for a strait main cap alignment?
what size journals and what were the bearings edge to filet clearance??
are the journals checked for finish and run-out/tapper?
did you use moly lube to assemble?
correct bearing crush?
did you pre-lube before start-up?
did the distributor gear fit the cam gear precisely?
was the distributor oil flow mod done?
was the correct style distributor gear used?
did you check the piston to piston pin bores for fit and clearance?
did the piston pins to snap ring clearance seem overly tight?
if they are pressed pins were they correctly matched and checked for free movement in the pistons?
was the engine ballanced?
cam button installed?, and lock plate installed?
were the rods resized? checked for parrallel bores/were the rods strait?
piston valve clearance notchs correctly located on the pistons? edges smoothed?
were the rods checked for length?
is there a few thousands clearance on the oil pump drive shaft AFTER the distributors bolted down?
did you install a steel collar on the oil pump drive shaft?
was the rod to piston pin side clearance checked? (at 4 places seperated bye 90 degree spots)
does the oil pump drive shaft mid section clear the block with the pump installed?
whats the starter to flywheel gear clearance?
is the pilot bearing to trans imput shaft clearance ok?
is the front motor mount bolt to fuel pump pushrod clearance ok? did the fuel pump pushrod move easily/
are you possitive the pistons were installed with the correct valve relief in the correct location?(eiieeiie) were the pistons installed with the correct side facing forward/
what torque values were used on all fasteners/ were they the correct length and type bolts?
were the bores honed with a torque plate in place?
was the cylinder finish correct for the type rings used?
was the oil pump itself checked for free spin and clearance AFTER THE PICK-UP WAS INSTALLED?
was the cam drive checked for free rotation and drag/
were the oil passage plugs drilled for extra oil flow?
were the lifter bores checked?
cam to timing cover clearance?
cam journal to cam bearing clearances?
was the cam journal run-out checked?
was the cam degreed in or just lined up useing factiory index marks?
has the rod and windage screen to oilpan clearnce been checked?
does the dipstick & tube clear the windage screen?
was the cam lobes/LSA/LIFT CHECKED?
is the deck square/level?
whats the cross hatch hone angle?
what grit hone was used?
are all the threads clean/clear?
brass freeze plugs installed?
block painted?
do the oil return holes have screens epoxied in place if necessary
besides the normal checks for deck height, line hone,and splayed main caps, making sure all the threaded holes are correct, the cylinders honed lifter bores are correct, theres the little things, I paint the inside surfaces of my blocks with
http://www.glyptal.com/1209_black_enamel.htm
to lock in place any micro dust left after the last total cleaning before assembly, to speed the oil flow back to the oil pan and help prevent corrosion
BTW I bought 16 rubber corks to push into the lifter bores to prevent paint entering the lifter bores durring the painting, I placed 16 mini-screw eyes in the corks and strung them on a bead chain to keep from loseing them while in storage or in use!

http://www.camtattoo.com/camshop/ho...ving_Tubes.html

Ive used BOTH RUSTOLEUM (BRITE YELLOW) and Glyptal but lately just several coats of BRITE YELLOW RUSTOLEUM ON OVER THE glyptal EPOXY BASE COAT,COVERED BYE BRITE YELLOW RUSTOLEUM APPLIED ON THE TOTALLY CLEANED AND DEGREASED AND DRIED BLOCK, (BTW A TOTAL DEGREASE OF THE BLOCK WITH ACETONE,and LINT FREE CLOTH, AND A heat gun or hair drier to totally dry the block just before cleaning helps the paint get a firm grip on the block surface) and dont forget you should remember the option to J&B EPOXY a MAGNET in the lifter gallery BEFORE painting the surfaces if you want to permenantly afix it on the block. (which do a great job at picking up micro metalic dust)
http://www.wondermagnet.com/dev/magnet1.html

I buy and use the 1 quart size cans of brite yellow paint at the local hardware store keep in mind that YOU MUST ALLOW THE PAINT TO TOTALLY DRY BEFORE ASSEMBLING THE ENGINE, AND THAT NORMALLY TAKES A FULL DAY IN THE HOT FLA HEAT (85 degrees (F)is a fairly average temp here
#7747 Sunburst Yellow

http://www.rustoleum.com/product.as...uct_id=18&SBL=1

I use brite yellow on both the interior and exterior of the engine blocks I build because it makes finding oil leaks very easy once the engines in use in the corvettes where space is cramped and finding small leaks can sometimes be a problemActually the idea is to grind away all casting flash (the rough sandy looking surface) from the inside of the block, and then wash thoroughly, dry thoroughly, then apply the paint. This takes a long time and must be done carefully which is why most engine builders don't do it, but engine builders on racing teams do it.

It's not only to assist in oil drainback but also keeps the oil from clinging to the block and coking. In racing engines the benefits are slight but noteworthy,
http://www.sa-motorsports.com/blockdiy/blkdiy.htm

http://www.hardblok.com/info.html


http://www.speedomotive.com/building%20tips.htm

http://www.se-r.net/engine/block_prep.html

now in addition to that info , heres what I do
(1) get the block totally cleaned, DEGREASED and CHECKED by a GOOD MACHINE SHOP BEFORE INVESTING MONEY IN IT!
(2) have new cam bearings and freeze plugs , oil plugs,installed by the local machine shop if you dont have the correct tools,but only after all other machine work is done and after a extensive recleaning of all the oil passages just prior to starting assembly
(3) screens over the oil drain back holes are a good idea ONLY if your willing to change oil and filters very frequently
(4) several powerful magnets in the oil pan and one in the rear of each cylinderhead to trap small metal parts is EXCELLENT INSURANCE
(5) polishing and smoothing the valve edges and combustion chambers helps prevent detonation
(6) if your pouring the block,never fill the water passages higher than the bottom of the freeze plug holes on a street engine
(7) 7 or more qt oil pans with BAFFLES AND A WINDAGE SCREEN like MILODON MAKES are a GREAT IDEA
theres more but thats a good start?

demonchild

the only thing i didnt understand...

if your pouring the block,never fill the water passages higher than the bottom of the freeze plug holes on a street engine

90formula5spd

HOLY ****!!! LISTEN TO THAT GUY!!!!! /\
||

IHI

iTrader: (1)

DTL504, most with engine building experience weather it be first hand or just around while it's being done know there are alot of cruitial things needed to be done, and the more experience you have the better you become because like anything else, faults are learned through experience. And while thesze machine shops "say" they only charge $100 for assembly, in a more real world business sense they are probably making themselves look affordable since most of the time guys buy the hard parts through them since it makes it easier on the guy buying the motor to let the machine shop take care of the details and more often than not, their cost is usually at or below what we see in speed catalogs. I'm sorry I personally did'nt take the time to read your rather large post, but I'm just speaking from personal experience of luck with machine shops, my personal motor is on it's second season with zero problems and it's whole life is getting beat to death, and so far with our 10 sec motor, all we've done is changed oil. I've personally seen 8 motors go this season from guys that build their own, et range from 12 sec street strip to low 10 strip only. That's not much of a case since I don't know everybody personally that races, but my personal ratio of close friends verses machine shops is concrete. machine shops 2 for 2, friends garage built mills 0 for 8. It's like me building a garage/house for somebody and then having you build a garage/house for somebody. I do it everyday and know alot of the ins/outs that somebody off the street will have no clue. Sometimes spending the money is a peice of mind, granted you won't get as much for the $$$ but what you do get is worth the money-if they're reputable.

Minion

Wow now that was a post.

IHI, thats what I am kind of afraid of, I forget or miss 1 little thing and 4k goes up in smoke.

DTL, wow that took a while to read. But I actually have read

the first book and Ligenfelters book. But reading something and doing it are two very different things.

I was thinking now of just buying a short block from GM and then just build the top end.

kfoley

Excellent post by DLT504! If you build your own motor and pay attention to detail you will have a reliable motor that will last a long time, however if you just slap stuff together it probably won't hold up for long. It would also be wise to invest in quality measurement tools. I'm not building my hi-po big block for my camaro until I buy all the tools I need, which will probably cost me around $1000, but I want to have a reliable high performance motor that will last for a long time.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

I got quoted about 1400 dollars at the local machine shop here who I know builds a damn good engine. That price included parts that I don't have like gaskets, crank, oil pump and pushrods. It was something like 850 if I had those parts and he just had to do the machine work and assembly. I've done 2 stock rebuilds which are still running great to this day but don't trust myself enough on something that'll be spinning 7,200 rpm.

90formula5spd

not to take away from ur post minion but, do u think it wold be alright for a amatuer engine guy to rebuild a LT1 and have it run well for years to come? im feel like im very good and read alot about them and ALWAYS pay attention to detail... u think the engine would b ok?

kfoley

It'll be fine. Just take your time and pay attention to detail. There's alot more you can get away with in a stock or close to stock motor than a race motor. Also, leave the beer for after the build, you want to be thinking clearly so you don't forget anything...

90formula5spd

haha alright, thanx man, NO BEER!?!?!?

demonchild

cmon what does this mean?"

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

Originally posted by demonchild
the only thing i didnt understand...
If your pouring the block,never fill the water passages higher than the bottom of the freeze plug holes on a street engine

Hope this will help explain you would only fill to the water jacket on a street engine.
Block Filler is a specially formulated cement based material with combined iron particles. Block Filler has the same thermal expansion coefficient as cast iron, so they will expand and contract at the same rate. Block Filler is permanent and can not be removed after it has hardened. This stuff is for high performance street/marine use and all out racing since it helps to eliminate block flexing and cracks in not so strong racing engine blocks by filling up the water jackets. Blocks with water jacket filler installed become stronger, Period. Some drag racers use water jacket filler after their blocks develop water jacket leaks, to extend the life of the block. Short fills can strengthen the bottom of the cylinders and may be used with continuos use i.e. street/marine as long as certain precautions are taken and the application is not one prone to overheating. This works exceptionally for "Stroker Engines" where the bottom of the block has to be machined to accept the longer crankshaft throws, the machining process may reduce the strength of the bottom areas of the cylinders, where they meet the block. Block Filler is used where the possibility of stress cracks and leaks may develop where the metal has been machined for crank clearance. In these instances the bottom inch of the block can be filled without adverse effects. This is not for long haul, endurance/industrial engines, where an aftermarket should be used. This method of strengthening should not be used with engines that have questionable cooling system operations or are prone to overheating. One tall fill unit will fill most big blocks to bottom of water pump hole. As you can see the MAIN reason not to fill a street engine is the chance of overheating. I does not really matter for full race engine because they are not prone to continious heat that a street car endures.
DTL504

89 Iroc Z

For that price do a LS1 swap, the benefits are endless

90formula5spd

yea but i dont think his T-5 will b able to hold up to an LS1s power, thats y i said go with the LT1 and T-56... Can the T-5 hold up?? if so go with the LS1!!! but i doubt it can

89 Iroc Z

You can’t bolt a T-5 to a LS1. The LS1 has nothing at all in common with a Gen I or Gen II SBC. You can buy a low mile LS1 with T-56 for about $3000. Also with a completely stock LS1 you have 320hp at the rear wheels. Change the heads and cam and you in the 11’s.

90formula5spd

3k for both!?!?!??! what!@? all the ones i c on ebay r like 5! where do u get 3k from cuz **** i might get one!!!! yea i thought there was problems with the LS1/t-5 combo...

89 Iroc Z

The T56 on the LS1’s have some reliability problems due to the clutch. My choice would be the auto because it is cheaper and more reliable.

LS1’s with T56’s go for around 3k on ebay all the time, just have to keep looking. Here is a link to one that sold for $3,800: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2433142712
I have seen them go for about $400 cheaper; you just have to keep looking for a good deal. Any you can get them for about $2500 if you buy one with an auto Trans.

82-T/A [Work]

When I had my engine rebuilt (2.8 into a 3.1), the machine shop charged me $730 dollars. The place was called Austral Engine Rebuilders. They specialize of course in farm tractor and machine engines, but they also have a side business where they rebuilt performance motors and such. Overall, I was very happy with the results that I got from my motor. I'm still breaking it in, but.. well, this is what he did:

Overall price was $730 dollars. $250 of that, is what he charged me to assemble the motor. The rest of the $730 was used for machine + labor costs. Keep in mind though, that I supplied about 95% of the parts. I was short about 3 pushrods, and the oil pump driveshaft thingy.

I was pretty impressed though. The heads had just recently had a valve job, and they redid them saying that the valve job wasn't done within specifications. But the cool thing is, they only charged me for the angle grind.. for like $23 dollars or something, and not for any of the parts. When I got the motor back, I noticed that they had done a lot of interesting things. They installed sleeves (basically a flat thin washer) underneath the valve springs to help strengthen the base? and a few other htings.

So I think his post really has some merit. It's good to get the work done from a professional machine shop.

It can't hurt to go and talk to the guy before you have the work done. You want to make sure that your motor is going to be rebuilt professionally. Ultimately, you're of course going to want it to last at least as long as it did from the factory.


FWIW, I would just buy a $2,500 dollar crate motor and re-use everything you've got now.

Get yourself a 250-300 horsepower 350 small block chevy and be done with it.

kfoley

Those would be valvespring shims. They're used to set the correct installed height and also to a degree in valvespring pressure. Valvesprings should be properly setup and checked in any performance motor. I don't know if DLT mentioned it, but springs should be checked for the correct pressure and should be set to the correct installed height with a valvespring micrometer.

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

Check out the latest Chevy Highperformance Magazine. There is a feature on a LS-1 motor swap into a third gen. It is very involved. There's wiring adaptation, notching of the firewall, and a host of other operations that makes me think that if your doubting your ability to screw together a motor, you may rethink taking on an LS-1 swap. IMHO

8Mike9

This is/could be accurate...but let me tell you what my shop does.

Smaller shops will usually list a total cost for the rebuild at say 1200.00...

The itemize at 1100.00 parts/100.00 labor.

The income tax they pay is on the labor, what they are really doing is adding the labor charges into the parts to minimize taxes.

Lumberg

I have a 383 w/ZZ4-cam longblock I took out of my Iroc... dart alum heads, 9.8:1, cast steel crank, 5.7 rods, kb hypereutectic pistons, double-roller timing set. Ran 12.78 in a full-weight 89 IROC -automatic on drag-radials, and 11.80 on the nitrous... on 89 octane fuel. This is an L98 factory hydraulic-roller motor, red line probably 5800-6000. It ran 12.99's typically, w/ a 2400 stall and a built 700r4 and 3.50 gears in a chevy-ized 9-inch rear.... but I had it on a stock 9-bolt for a while, and a 10-bolt 3.08 drum after that posi failed. It uses a 153 tooth flywheel, which is EXTERNALLY BALANCED (a rarity, not so desirable if you plan on converting it to a manual tranny, but definetly a plus to have a genuinely balanced assembly, insted of just using the manufacturer's component-weights and a calculation). The max lift of the heads (0.510) means 1.6 exhaust rockers on that cam, and 1.5's on the intake (I think I got that the right way round). I have 1.5 stamped rockers you can have, I'm keeping my crane golds.

I still have to put the 305 back into the Iroc, to sell it, but I've been hoarding the 383 because there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. something like maybe 4000 miles on it. It is 1 of 3 cars I used to drive at the time it was running. I drove it anywhere, including up to new-york down to upper virginia. extremely streetable with the large-tube TPI.

The deal is, you pay half for the motor, pay your machinist to take it totally apart and inspect it... if anything comes up NOT to your liking, bring it back and get all your money back.... I'm not out to rip anyone off, but you pay for the trardown and inspection. I will NOT sell it to anyone without you doing the teardown.. cause no one is coming back to me in 6 months saying "it was busted when you sold it to me". I'd rather just keep it then listen to that crap. this is a perfect engine.... the nitrous use was done the right way, with proper fueling and with barely a 70 RWHP effect....perfect except it sucks to deal with the angled-plugs on the dart-heads and SLP headers, with plug-changes :P

not seeking much, make an offer. this is the only time I've ever posted it for sale... just browsing and thought someone here might-could use it maybe.

dzug@eecis.udel.edu

www.dzy.org (look at the 89 Iroc... it had the 383 in it... there are dyno charts for it in there somewhere... low on HP to some, most of my E.T. is launch-skill and 60-foot time )

z28crazy

you can go with a crate engine and get what everyone else can get or allready has. or you can go to several machine shops price around for the best deal and warranty( that is key) and then do some shoppin for performance parts. the total assembly a machine shop should cost should be between 1000 and 1400. that is it. if u have a 4000 budget then u have a fair amount of funding to get all the performance goodies. also if u dont have a 350 block to work with im sure they have one and will sell it to u for bout 100 dollars

cam
pistons
heads
crank
hei distributor
the list can go on and on.... u get the point

this way u can get more power and possibly a unique combo!!!