305RSlc

Hey all, I'm new to this and am looking for some help. This site seems to offer tons of advice and info about the wonderful world of ThirdGen cars. I myself own a lovely white 89 RS with the stock 305 TBI. It's nice....but not what I want

What I am looking to build is something far more aggressive than this little stocker. I want to stick with small block, and I have seen wonderful things done with 383s. I was planning on putting one in my car to run (an amazingly unrealistic) 10 second 1/4 mile while still being streetable.

What I was hoping to build, with my limited engine building knowledge mind you, was some that pushed out around 500 horses. Would doing this with a 383 be feasable or should I go with a big block? As with all Third gen cars....I have a budget, a tight one.....being 16, minimal income, and huge plans for my car dont' exactly go hand in hand. but I am hopeful.

the engine combo, or what I have come up with thus far, is something as follows.

350 block, (four bolt main I hope) bored .030
3.75 steel crank, new
hypereutetic flat top pistons
5.7'' rods
LT 4 hot cam with its .525/.525 lift with 1.5 rockers
a vortec style head, preferably aluminum, and something that will work with the cam
either the edelbrock vortec TPI baseplate or some sort of LT1 baseplate that will fit the head bolt pattern and the TB system for it...undecided on that one

that's about it....as you can see not much and I am wondering if anyone can help

I want to install a T-56 with this and 4:10 gears in the rear with a posi unit. that is about all I can think of, and help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks
Lc

Nate86

Hi, fancy meeting you here. Damn I'm glad we both like the same types of cars (F-body).

Anyway, sorry to go off topic.

Air_Adam

The most streetable (and reliable) way I can see to build a 500hp engine is with a supercharger.

305RSlc

firstly, thanks for the response!

Secondly, that is another goal of mine...gettting a centrifical supercharger. But that is in the far future. I was hoping to make between 400-500 naturally aspirated horsepower. Got any engine combos that might work to give me that much and still be streetable? I was thinking about getting and LT1 setup, boring and stroking it, and changing heads and cam to LT4. That should kick out somewhere around 400 at the crank, I think. But like I said, budget. I need something that I could actually finish and not have to dish out all my $$$ for. Novice engine builder seeking any and all advice! thanks a lot
Lc

wingnut

If you want to run a small block, you should go with the most displacement you can get your hands on. A 400 would be a good choice. If you can't locate a 400 at a reasonable price, then the 383 stroker would be a good option. Either way, to reach 500 HP, you will need far more flow than a set of Vortech heads can give you. You'll want some heads with at least 200cc intake ports. Several companies (Dart, AFR, Brodix, etc.) offer 200-220cc heads that would work nicely. Also, you will want a cam with alot more duration and lift than that LT4 Hot Cam. I'd suggest something with around 250 duration @ .050" and .530-.600" lift. Slap on a Victor Jr intake, Holley 850cfm carb and that should get you past the 500 HP mark.

305RSlc

I appreciate the response wingnut. That does sound feasable. How much would a set of heads with that runner volume cost? And could I get that engine combo with a fuel injection setup? That is what I am hoping to run....a TPI setup using the MAP type harness. (dont' like the restrictive MAFs) And the duration of the cam.... would it be better to go with a dual pattern cam or single pattern? I dunno which one would give the best duration.

So basically, more cubic inches, the higher horsepower potential. That is what I initially thought but big blocks are expensive to run. Where would a good place to pick up a decent 400 block be?

Again all, thanks for the help!
Lc

Corry

If you're on a budget, I'd keep away from the 400. A lot of parts are hard to find and therefore expensive. I can't tell you which ones and how much because I never did it at the advise of others who had tried to do it, and ended up selling everything they got at a loss...
Ditch the TPI, if you want horsepower, TPI is not the way to do it, its a big torque motor, not a big HP motor. Get a mini-ram, stealth ram etc...shorter intake runners = lower intake charge veloicity=lower torque, however, you'll see higher flow numbers which=more horsepower.
The carb is an option as well. There is a heated debate about whether or not carbs perform as well and at the same efficiency yadda yadda which I think is beyond the scope of this topic (Just do a search for it if you are interesed) I'm an FI guy myself but mainly because I am also a computer guy, the more computer controlled it is the more I like it because its easier for me to fiddle with a mouse and keyboard than a screwdriver
Corry

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

SBC 408 PARTS and PRICES
MANUFACTURER DESCRIPTION PART# PRICE NEED
AFR Heads 195cc AFR-1035 $1,250.00

ARP Main Studs 070-234-5501 $51.99
Head Bolts 070-134-3601 $49.99
Oil Pump Stud 070-230-7002 $6.99
Oil Pump Shaft 070-134-7901 $13.99

CLEVITE Main Bearing MS1038P $27.00
Rod Bearing 8-CB663P $27.00

CLOYES True Roller Timing Chain 220-9-3100 $39.99

CRANE Flat Tappet Mechanical CRN-114681 $109.99
Lifters CRN-99250-16 $79.95

EAGLE H-Beam Rods CRS6000B3D $335.09

FEDERAL MOGUL Cam Bearings 1235M $19.00

FEL-PRO Head Gasket 375-1014 (2x) $63.98
Intake Gasket

HARLAND SHARP Roller Rockers CSP-1002 $197.95

MILODON Oil Pan MIL-30900 $134.95
Oil Pump Pick-Up Screen MIL-18311 $34.95

MELLING Oil Pump MEL-M55 $15.95

Mr. Gasket Oil Pump High Press Spring 720-26 $3.99

PIONEER Brass Freeze Plugs $16.50

SCAT 9000 Int Bal Crank 400-3750-6000 $222.50

TURNER MACHINE Bore w/ deck plates $120.00
Install Cam Bearings $25.00

K&P MACHINE Deck (.000) $150.00
Align Hone Mains $135.00
Align Bore Mains $0.00
Tap Starter Bolt $65.00
Tap 3 Oil Holes $15.00
Mount Pistons to Rods $65.00
Install Main Studs $15.00
Balance Rotating Assembly $185.00

WISECO Pro Tru Forged Pistons PT020H4 (0.040) $419.00

SUB-TOTAL
$1,211.09 $2,684.66

TOTAL COST $3,895.75

305RSlc

Thanks for the info. I just recently read about someone installing a LT1 intake in place of a super ram intake. They were still using the TPI wiring harness, and although they lost about 30 or so ft/lbs they gained about 20 horsepower in the upper rpm range. It showed the stats for the quarter and although the super ram got off the line quicker, the LT1 intake was able to chase it down and the et's were almost identical. I am not too familiar with the mini ram setup. Do you have any info on that? I think I just may go with the LT1 setup and convert the whole thing over to LT4 with larger bore and stroke. Does anyone has the stats and prices for the LT4 heads?

I am still wanting to build a 383 though bigger is obviously better. From what I have seen there are so many parts that are just bolt ups the the 350 block, but I haven't seen many for the 400. Am I just looking in the wrong places or what?

Lc

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

From what I have seen there are so many parts that are just bolt ups the the 350 block, but I haven't seen many for the 400. Am I just looking in the wrong places or what?

The prices is about the same between a Small Block Chevy 350 & 400. If you have a good core 400 its worth to build that engine. Dont believe the hipe that 400 over heat. Drill the steam holes in the heads and the temperature is the same as any SBC. Also a great place to look for parts is Ebay. The rotating assembly I bought (Wiseco Forge Pistons $419.00, Scat 9000 Crank $222.50, Eagle H-Beam Rods $335.09 and Clevite Bearing $54.00) came from Ebay, thats $1030.59 for a complete rotating assembly. I bet the same parts for a SBC 350 will be the same.

305RSlc

Thanks a lot. I have never heard anything about 400s overheating but I'll take your word for it. What type of 400 do you have exactly? Two or four bolt, cast iron or aluminum, and how much did you get it for? Also, can the 400 sbc hold a bigger over bore than the 350, or are they the same since they are both small blocks?

In any case, I greatly appreciate the info. This is becoming somewhat easier as far as my engine setup
Lc

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

Here is how I got my SBC 400:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=117906

Sbc 400 (4.125) bore is much bigger than the 350 (4.000):

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=151433

305RSlc

Awesome....$50 for a whole block and rotating assembly!!! I'd say you got a steal!!

So with the 400 block, I could actually make a 427 and not even worry about the whole 383 thing? That actually sounds a little more temping.

So you are running a little below 400 hp with your setup right now, or have you made changes to get a little more push from your engine?
Lc

KYL98

Check out my signature if it helps.....with what Im running with my 383...anymore and the car would have to be completely stiffened and massive fabrication would have to be done....I have cracks above my drivers door on the roof...lol I also have a 8point roll cage and modified sfc's. Its making 415hp at the wheels....plenty for a daily driver. You would have to supercharge or turbo a daily driver 10second car....even then, "daily" driving would be an adventure. Good luck.


p.s. Youll need a bigger cam for the 383 than the Hot Cam to get anywhere close to 500hp.

DTL504

iTrader: (1)

KYL98
Thats a pretty setup 383 with good E.T.

305RSlc
I would not try making a 427 out of a production block. You will have to do a lot of clearancing on the pan rails and rod bolts to stick it into the assembly. If you really have the need for that much power and the money to invest get a Motown or Dart block the standard 4.125 bore and she can be over bore close to .125. These aftermarket block have real thick cylinder walls. Cost of the block could set u back $2000.00

My 400 estimated at 450hp @5500 and 470TQ@ 4500, that enough to move and any street car down the road pretty fast.
I use a Solid Crane Cam:
http://dab7.cranecams.com/SpecCard/D...1=Display+Card

KYL98

Thanks...it runs GREAT. Im actually rebuilding the Holley right now....working on the venturi's and metering rods....etc. Should get about 10hp more maybe....it will idle much better though.....Im thinking about changing to the Comp XR300HR-10....should give me some more top end. The motor seems to like 4500-6500rpm now....good for a 383.

305RSlc

KYL98, that is definitely a pretty sweet setup!:hail: What exactly does your 383 redline at? And what kind of sfc's do you have?

DTL504, thanks for all the stats on the 400. I am looking around and hope to land my hands on something, either 350 or 400. Right now either would be a step up from the 305 I have if built right. Hopefully in the future, with a little more experience (and a higher paying job) I could actually go into getting a Dart,Motown, or Merlin block and go crazy with big block power. For now though, I'll stick with sbc. thanks a lot!
Lc

KYL98

My 383 redlines at "about" 6800rpm I think....it seems to want to go more....but Ive never pushed it. I think thats alot for a stroker....I think you'd be plenty happy with a 383. If you really wanted a BBC, Id get a full bodied car like a Nova, or Chevelle. I think a BBC is too much for a third gen f-body....but thats just me. Good luck with whatever you decide.

305RSlc

KYL98, you make a good point about bbc and full frame cars. I think i will just stick with the 383, don't want to twist my camaro in half.

How much did your setup cost ( all together)?

Just tryhing to get some numbers here to start building mine.
Lc

KYL98

Well....mine wasnt that cheap. I already had the block so I just had it machined. All together, Ive got about $5000 in it. Ive got a Scat Forged crank....found it at a swap meet for $500. Thats the best place to find stuff like that. You can get a rotating assembly from Jegs, Summit, etc from Eagle that has the crank, pistons, etc....for about $1000 I think. Then depending on the block, machining prices vary. If you decide to go with a 6in rod like I did....MAKE SURE you check piston to vavle clearances. If you planning on using TPI for the intake.....hog it out as much as possible. I just used the carb because its a race car, plus I didnt have another TPI unit laying around. Let me know if you need any help putting the 383 together......

92 zzz28

Here's what I am currently doing:

385
Cola 4340 crank
Eagle 6" 4340 rods
Wiseco forged pistons, low compression
AFR 190s w/ mild porting
Holley Stealth Ram intake
Comp Cams custom ground blower cam
Comp Cams valvetrain

TH-350 race built
3500 Yank convertor
GM 10 bolt 3.42 geared rear (until it breaks)
DDS Heavy duty steel shaft

6 point roll bar
Custom subframe connectors
Custom strut tower brace (won't be able to use though with the HSR)
Custom panhard and lower control arms
Spohn torque arm and crossmember for TH-350
Spohn "wonderbar"

That's what I got now
Soon to come:

ATI procharger 12psi boost (haven't commited to a model yet)
12 bolt rear with at least 3.73s
315/35-17 Drag Radials
Bear brakes all around (going fast is great, and stopping fast is fun too)

Any way if my calculations are correct with everything tuned and setup properly I should see low 10s. Oh, this is also my daily driver. Not to good in the mileage department but neither is a 7 series BMW with a 10 or 12 cylinder engine!! Good luck with your combo...

305RSlc

Thanks, KYL98, I'll definitely keep you posted once my build-up starts and bug you with any questions I might have

I think I have figured out my engine, pretty much, and am starting to save for it all. Though 5 grand may take a while to get to.....

92 zzz28, thanks for your info on your setup. I was thinking about running the HSR, but it's kinda expensive. I could get the whole LT4 setup for the same price as just the intake combo with the HSR. However, do you know if the HSR has any better flow rates that the LT4 intake (for possible future use ) I definitely think I am gonna ditch the TPI intake and just stick with the LT1 or LT4. I just thought it would be easier, and cheaper, to run the TPI wiring harness and just throw on the lt1 intake. still undecided about that
Thanks again!
Lc

92 zzz28

I got the HSR from Thunder Racing and I paid less than $500 for it shipped to my door. Maybe the LT1/LT4 intake is cheaper, but it will not just bolt on from what I have read. I could be mistaken, but I remember reading about how it needs to have bolt holes and port holes reworked for proper alignment.

I do not know which intake flows better but I would guess that the HSR has more potential. The Mini Ram is another alternative to the LT1 intake. It looks similar and is made to be a bolt on. It is a little costly with the fuel rails and regulator kit but it does look and perform very well. Many people on these boards have it and are making big power. It comes from Tuned Port Induction Specialties. www.tpis.com

I know how it feels to have to save for months or even years to get all the money together for a combo, but do it right. Wait until you can get the highest quality of parts you can afford. You will be better off in the long run and if you should ever want to strap a blower or nitrous on it, then you can have the peace of mind to know the engine will survive. One more thing, if you go with a strorker, use the longest rod you can, 6" or longer...

KYL98

I would have went with fuel injection....but I know alot more about carbs...plus the engine was supposed to go into my dads Nova....and was already complete. But, when he sold the Nova, I got the engine. I didnt really want to fool around with the PROM trying to make it run with a huge cam, etc......and didnt want to fork out the money for the DFI computer. I agree with going with the longest rod possible.....Also, if you go with alum heads and dont plan on nitrous or supercharging, go with a little higher compression. Im running 11:1 right now....I can get away with it because of the big cubes, duration of the cam and alum heads....plus it sounds freakin awesome. It almost sounds like a big block.......Good luck.

305RSlc

92 zzz28, I have never seen the HSR listed for only 500. I think I was looking in....Summit, possibly Jegs, and it is close to 2200 for the setup! I'll definitely look elsewhere now that I know it can be had for a lot cheaper. Thanks!

KYL98, I am the opposite. I know more about fuel injection than carbs, hence the reason I am so adimant about running EFI. I do want to run an aluminum head but I am gonna try to keep the compression down, hopefully under 10:1, so I can breathe on the engine later.....supercharger or turbo.

Question though, why should I go with longer rods? What is the difference between 5.7 and 6 (other than length?) Would I have to worry about valve clearancing problems if I ran the longer rod?
Please explain
Lc

92 zzz28

Okay, what you are looking at is the entire retro fit package. It includes the manifold, fuel rails, regulator, injectors, computer, throttle body, wiring harness. A bunch of stuff you don't need if you already have TPI in your car. Go to www.thunderracing.com They are a sponsor to TGO and have an ad at the top of the page. They have just the HSR intake manifold and fuel rail kits. I suggest getting the one with the adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I am sure summit and jegs sell just the intake kit as well but they only show the big money deal in the catalog. I was confused at first when I first read about people using the HSR, then I was shown the light!!!

Soon I will have my new combo running and I will post results as soon as I get them.

305RSlc

And the reason for running longer rods?

92 zzz28

The longer rod increases the rod/stroke ratio which helps to reduce side loading on the cylinder walls.

Stock stroke w/ 5.7 rod 1.63
Stock stroke w/ 6.0 rod 1.72

383 w/ 5.7 rod 1.52
383 w/ 6.0 rod 1.6

So, as you can see you are losing some rod ratio but with the 6 in rod you get back as much as possible. This is the ideal way to go.

305RSlc

And there is no need to worry about valve clearancing (depending on the type of piston I run of course) with the longer rods?

92 zzz28

Well, you will need pistons designed for the longer rods and longer stroke. After that you would check for piston to valve clearance, but in my experience I have never come close to having any contact except with domed, high compression pistons.
If you run flat tops or dished, you should have no worries, but check it anyway!!

When you are building an engine, check everything 3 times. Its too expensive to make a silly mistake and grenade the engine...

305RSlc

Yeah I agree, I don't want to blow anything up. I am planning on running all forged parts with flat tip pistons. I'll definitely get some 6" rods. thanks for all your help, now if I could only find a LT1 setup for under 1000.......
Lc

rjpbboi

What is needed to swap a 350 for a 383. I mean like what would I have to change?