Pshnmeawy

I've got an 87 Camaro Z28. Motor was swapped with 79 350 then brought up to be a 383 stroker. Anyway, after I got my interior done, the car won't start. It's an odd issue..

It WILL start if you jump the starter and turn the ignition as if you were starting it. It WILL NOT start if you just have it in the on position. IT stays running just fine.

Any ideas?

camaronewbie

Nope - does not make sense.

Starter has 3 terminals, one for the purple wire ONLY, one for the pos batt cable (and some fusible links), and one that connects the solenoid to the starter (this is usually done with a metal plate rather than a wire).

The only thing turning the key does is send 12v+ out on (eventually) a purple wire to the starter solenoid on the smaller of the two terminals - this is the 'signal' wire. With the key turned to ON, if you apply 12v+ to that same terminal on the starter, the starter will always turn (as long as the pos batt cable is connected to the other solenoid terminal).

Basically, the solenoid is a big relay - you turn the key, 12v+ is sent out on the purple wire to the relay (solenoid) which is already grounded to the block. This 'turns on' a switch (if you will) inside the relay (solenoid), which connects the 12v from the pos batt cable to the actual starter motor itself.

You don't have VATS - so all you have is the key cylinder (which we'll assume is good), the ignition switch (which is on top of the steering column under the guages), and the neutral safety switch (above clutch on manual, on pass side of shifter in auto).

When you turn key, a rod is pushed by the key cylinder into the ignition switch, which makes a 12v+ connection between red wire from fuse block and green wire going to neutral safety switch. If in neutral, then that power is transferred to the purple wire going to starter through the driver side firewall wiring harness.

Also, there is a cable running from an auto tranny to the ignition switch, that won't allow the rod at the ignition switch to move (which doesn't let the key turn).

Not sure it helps, but there's the run-down.

But as long as the key is ON, the pos batt cable is connected to larger starter terminal, and 12v+ is applied to the smaller terminal (where the purple wire goes), then the starter will turn (assuming the starter is good).

camaronewbie

Oh - btw - welcome to TGO!

Here's a starter troubleshoot guide: http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=38

Here's wiring diags for most any 3rd gen: http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=19

Save this link in favs - lots of great stuff here: http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=2

Pshnmeawy

Thanks for the welcoming. I've personally been stumped. I think it might be the start solinoid(Sp?). I noticed there was a relay by the shifter.. replaced that. I pulled the steering column down and seen that the rod was moving fine and was not out of adjustment. So I don't think the neutral safety switch is bad. The starter is relatively new high torque starter from Pro-comp. The damn nose cone kept snapping on stock ones. So I know I got an extra solinoid lying around. I figured if worst case scenario I'll just put a push button in. I'm trying to not ghetto it up though... I've got WAY too much money invested in it.

camaronewbie

I have an issue with mine as well - I've replaced everything, and I still have an intermittent starting issue. I always get 12v+ on my purple signal wire, and the solenoid always clicks, but sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesn't. So I know my ignition switch, starter enable relay (VATS), and neutral safety switch are all good (they damn well ought to be, they are all new!). But - EVERY time I apply 12v+ from the battery to the signal wire post on the starter it always starts - so I know it's not the starter either (which is also new).

So all I can think of is that there is just enough of a short in my purple wire between firewall and starter that it still flows 12v+, but not enough amps to actually excite the solenoid enough to crank the starter.

My thought is either 1) run a new replacement signal wire from under dash to the starter (not thrilled about drilling firewall etc.), or 2) rig a relay under the hood, so that my signal wire activates the relay, which connects 12v+ directly from battery (power distribution box) to the solenoid signal post.

I thought about a push-button starter switch and new wiring to starter, and they fit right in the cigarette lighter hole (which although I smoke I don't use my cigarette lighter) - but like you said hate to change the stock look like that.

Hope you get it figured out. Hope I get mine figured out too! I'm tired of starting my car from under the hood with a chunk of 10guage wire everytime I want to GO!

White'89

iTrader: (8)

What are you trying to jump OP? Are you jumping the Main battery terminal on the starter or the solenoid engagement wire(purple)?

And just curious but have you checked the fuse?

camaronewbie

Huh?

Neither of us has a running issue, we both have starting issues - timing has nothing to do with the starter turning.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

It does if your carbed. If your distributor is to far advanced the car will have a hard time starting, don't believe me try it.

camaronewbie

I'm trying to say - that it's not a problem with the engine starting, it's a problem with the starter turning at all. There is no interaction with the distributor and the starter. We have starter issues, not starting issues

White'89

iTrader: (8)

And I'm trying to tell YOU that having the timing to far advanced can cause the starter to turn over very slowly if at all. Could someone else please chime in and correct me if I am wrong?

Pshnmeawy

It cranks just fine when it cranks. It's either nothing or jumping it and it turns normal. It's very frustrating. Mine is very ripped apart not like stock at all. I've got a custom interior. No AC. All heater compenents are ripped out. No computer. It's carbed. Like you would of seen back in the day. I'm going to bring the wiring diagram to a friend of mine tonight who is a ASE mechanic and also a certified electriciton. I'll let you know if I figure out the issue though.

camaronewbie

OK - one last time, then I give up....

NONE of that has to do with the operation of the starter. No matter where timing is set, a starter will turn the engine over all day until the battery dies. Engine won't fire, but the starter will turn the engine over. Set timing anywhere you like - take the distributor out all together - remove all the spark plugs, the wires, the distributor, the carb and intake - a starter will still turn over the engine. You can set your timing anywhere you like, my starter will turn over your motor unless it's seized - period. I don't care if the induction system is carbed, FI, nuclear, or Warp Drive - if it's got a flywheel on it that either has 168 teeth or 153 teeth, and isn't seized, my starter will turn it.

Valves open/close with the cam. Cam turns the distributor. Distributor fires where it's 'timed at'. It doesn't matter when the distributor is set to fire the plugs, the starter will still turn over the motor, the cam will still be timed to open/close the valves accordingly. Now if the cam was timed way off, then maybe I could see a situation where the valves could all be closed, and too much pressure could build in more than one cylinder, and since the valves aren't opening in time to release some of that compression pressure build up ... that just might slow a starter down. But since the distributor has nothing to do with the opening/closing of valves, there's NOTHING a distributor can do (short of binding up the cam and thus binding up the crank because of the timing chain) to keep a starter from turning over an engine.

OUR problem is that the starter is not turning, regardless - even if we didn't have a motor at all (just a starter), myself and the OP would still have an issue.

My car runs fine, timing is set where it needs to be. Car has ran fine for 3+ years where the timing is at. I have a hi-torque mini starter, 3hp - it would turn the whole car over if you mounted it to the pavement and attached it to the fender.

If I took my starter out, mounted it to a bench without being on an engine, connected my signal wire and a pos batt cable to it, and turned my key, the starter would not turn every time. It's simply a signal wire issue. My car did this with the stock 305 in it 5+ years ago, has done it with the 350 and a stock starter from a 1970's car, and is still doing it with the new mini-starter.

Is any of that making sense now?

Starting circuit issue is what we face - period. NOT a running/firing issue.

Pshnmeawy

Well I took it to my buddy. He said it's either the wire itself is shorted or it HAS to be the ignition switch. Which is mounted on top of the steering collumn.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...mString=search

It's the thing that the rod goes into from the tumbler.

Pshnmeawy

Well replaced that ignition switch. No luck. I'm assuming when the interior got redone that a wire got pinched. Gonna follow the signal wire and see where it leads.

darth442

I have the same annoying problem on a '92 RS. It clicks every time, but only cranks some of the time. When it cranks it starts right up. I blamed a cheapo starter, but replacing it didn't resolve the problem. For once it's not a cauliflower side post battery terminal either. I've check my usual trouble spots, ground to the motor, hot wire on the alternator, etc. The positive battery cable was replaced out of paranoia. The car is mostly stock. The timing is stock. I know I've got an electrical gremlin somewhere.

Is anyone running extra grounding straps around the engine compartment? My only suggestion is test with ground run to the starter. I'm going to try that myself, but my problem is intermittent, so it's hard to tell if I really fixed it.

Please let me know what you find.

elesone

Here's what I found with my bros 32 Street Rod. We were on a cruise and pulled in for gas. The car would not start not even a click. The screw driver trick to jump the terminals at the starter did start the car. During our stay at the show and a few days after it worked fine with the key. Then it did it again in the garage. So suspecting the ignition switch above the pedal we replaced it and worked for a month, then it failed again while on another cruise. Jumped the solenoid and off we went. Got it home and decide to trace the wires and all were fine. Since the only item not checked was the connector on the ign switch above the pedal, I found some terminals in the connector were weak with one having signs of arcing. Disassembling the connector wires one by one and bending the terminal contacts to apply a little more tension, seemed to cure the issue, which is now four years old. Just another point of failure. Good luck.

camaronewbie

Darth442: It's worth a shot I guess, but Id think if it were a ground issue jumping the starter would yield a bad result as well. Starter grounds to the block, there is no ground wire to the starter - so really no starter 'ground' to fail.

elesone: I just replaced my ignition switch, and I didn't see any issues with the connector, although I didn't tear it apart, just looked real good.

My next step is to just run another signal wire, from underdash just before the firewall connector out to starter, and see what happens. That takes the purple wire out of the picture after the neutral safety switch. If that works, then I know I have a bad signal wire - if not, then I know something between ignition switch and neutral safety switch is bad.

At this point, I'm tempted to wire in a push-button starter switch and be done - one would fit nicely into the cigarette lighter hole, and would still require the key (and thus my VATS starter enable relay) to start the car.

darth442

True, there's no dedicated ground for the starter, but that means you're relying on every contact between the starter and the battery ground to be good. Normally that would be a safe bet, but the starter pulls a lot of current. A jump from the battery terminal to one of the starter bolts should be enough to test it.
You'll probably wind up swapping the wire under the dash and so will I. Good luck.