DacMan

Some of you may have read my thread titled 350 Swap+Build Thread, and if so understand that I have been battling a 3 month battle to get my engine running right. I am now to the point were I am getting spark, but running severly rich, often times the engine will run well for about 20 seconds then run rich, the only way to get it to run well for another 20 seconds is to let it sit for a while (flooded plugs?). I have timed and re-timed a million times, and have checked my firing order even more, and nothing. My dist. is completly rebuilt minus a coil (I have two and have had the same results with both coils). My carb was rebuilt about 5 months ago. I just finished an engine bay resto, and the car was running fine after the rest. So all the parts on the car have proven themselves. I am making this thread to hopefully catch the eye of others who don't read my build thread. I just need some expert help please. I am super confused any ideas?


Thanks, DacMan

knight123

iTrader: (4)

Shooting in the dark here but could it be you have too much fuel pressure and it's causing it to flood out? Maybe an adj fuel pressure reg not working? - have not read your build post but that was the first thing that came to mind....

Rolling Thunder

Well i have to say i didnt read your thread maybe a link to it might help? But honestly if things are this bad i think we need to go back to square one. So your running rich. First off have you pulled the plugs to confirm this?

DacMan

Good idea to post a link (FYI it's some pretty boring reading, just dialouge back and forth, but here it is):

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...thread-12.html

As far as it being the fuel pressure reg not working I really don't know, I guess I should state this first, this is a 305 HO. I think it's a great idea to go to square one RollingThunder, I have pulled some plugs, and they are quite wet. They are brand new by the way. Also new plug wires as well.

Thanks for the quick responses, DacMan

Rolling Thunder

ok there wet and its not oil were sure its fuel?

DacMan

Yes, it's very black, and I just tore my heads down, had them cleaned, had new gaskets and most important new valve seals put on em, lapped valves etc. I also had the valve guides looked at and the guy said they're not prefect but acceptable.

Thanks Again, DacMan

gsmarcano

Sounds like a hole in a float. I would check, even new ones can have failures.

Motopsyco

I read some of your post, but have a couple questions for ya. is it currently a 350 that you swapped or a 305, you mentioned here that its a 305 ho. what year is it? and how much computer controlled is it at the time? Reason i ask that is I had a similar issue once with 91 bird, although it wasnt a carbbed car. i accidently broke my coolant temp sensor on the front of the intake and and it ran like that after about 20 seconds or so for awhile. then it got worse and completly flooded itself out and wouldnt run at all for at least an hour then do it all again. what it was doing was computer thinkin the car was like at 40 degrees below zero and giving the a ton of gas, but it was tbi so this may not apply to you, but might want to check into it.

Rolling Thunder

Ok well I read through the entire post and dear god thats long! lol However anyone who goes on for 12 pages with no solution and has worked as hard as you have deserves a helping hand. So like i said well start from square one and work our way through it till we nail the lid shut on this coffin. First thing that ive picked up is there seems to be alot of questions on the ignition system so i say we solve this and answer definitively do we have a strong spark, is the timing is correct, and ensure the ECM is not adjusting the timing out of what will allow the car to run. Though i dont think this is the igniting system we need to ensure its strait beyond any shadow of a doubt. To do this well follow the following steps.

1. Ensure the spark is strong.

This is easy just take a spare spark plug and remove a plug wire of your choice. If you dont have a spare plug doesn't have to be a good one pull one from the motor. Put the spare plug in the plug wire and HOLDING IT WITH SOMETHING INSULATED (dont want to get zapped wont kill you unless you have a pacemaker or something but hurts pretty good) have someone crank the motor over. While there cranking the motor see how far you can get the spark to ark should travel atleast 1/4-1/2 inch. Also try to get the spark to arc to something like the chassy of the car not to a fuel like or electronic components lol.

2. Eliminate the ECMs control. By eliminating the ECMs control we know that the ECM can make no adjustments to the timing. Although it will not run great like this with no advance it should start and run well enough to be driven. To do this simply disconnect the EST line as you would when you set the timing normally accept no just leave it disconnected. Like this what we set the timing to is what it will be.

3. Ensure the distributor is not 180 degrees out.

Now although you wouldn't think so cars will run with there distributors 180 out they will run like old washing machines but they will run. Remove spark plug number 1 (first cylinder in the front on the drivers side) and turn the motor over by hand (clockwise if your facing the motor) while your finger is covering the hole where the spark plug goes. When you feel compression continue to turn the motor till the line on the harmonic balancer is in line with the "0". Remove the distributor cap the rotor should be pointed roughly where the number one cylinder post is. If it is well set the timing.

4. lastly well set the timing. Set the timing to 10 degrees BTDC. With the timing set here it should start and run.

If you have any questions about things so far ask away lets make sure we do this right and leave nothing to chance so we can eliminate the ignition system.



Now as if i haven't bombarded your brain with enough for one night theres more to come unfortunately. Time to check out the fuel system. For starters lets do a quick overview of the fuel system.


First lets do a quick inspection of the operation of the carb.

1. remove the air cleaner and look down the throttle bores (car not running). Manually operate the accelerator and ensure that fuel squirts out into the throttle bores.

2. Watch the operation of the choke specifically make sure its opening. To eliminate the choke manually tie the choke wide open and try to start the car. You will need to pump the pedal a a few times before it will start. It will be hard to start and it wont run particularly well probably wont even run unless you hold the throttle down a bit till it warms up but if the choke isnt opening it will flood the motor.

3. Now lets take a quick look to make sure that the float and needle seat is working properly and there are no obvious internal leaks. Disconnect the 12 V source from the ignition coil to prevent the car from starting. again remove the air cleaner and look down the throttle bores and have someone crank the motor over (wear safety glasses just in case). Watch for fuel trickling in. If you see fuel trickling in its time to tear the carb down again unfortunately.

4. Fuel pressure. Give it a quick test as pressure thats too low or to high can be a big problem. Also how is your fuel system comprised? Im assuming its all stock with a mechanical fuel pump?

5. if the car does not start give it a shot of starting fluid and see what happens.

That should give you a good enough start to get going hopeful something here will turn something interesting up. As always any questions or concerns just ask away. Just hang in there the problem will be found!

DacMan

Wow RollingThunder,
I can't tell you how greatful I am for your help. I'm sure I will have questions when I start to run through the test (hopefully tonight, got a family thing today) but so far I understand everything because it was explained quite well. I will post all findings that I come to tonight if I get a chance to work on her.

Thank you very much again, DacMan

DacMan

Turns out the family thing has been cancelled so I can work on her today, BTW I forgot to mention my fuel pump is mechanical and supposably was replaced by the previous owner.

DacMan

DacMan

I went ahead and followed your list with numbered answers. Once again I am really pleased your helping me and appreciate it greatly.
Electrical
1.)The spark will jump off a screwdriver about 1/2 inch and as far as jumping the spark plug gap it's just a little spark, between the two points, it's not very long. But appears to be the tippical spark.
2.)The ECM is disconeccted.
3.)I checked with a screwdriver and am not 180 off.
4.)I set it 10 degrees BTDC and it will run but super rough, I have to give it a little throttle just to get it going then can let off and get it to idle, it runs smoother if I turn the dist. an 1/8th turn counter clockwise.
Fuel
1.)Fuel is squirting nicley into the throttle bores when throttle is opperated.
2.)When choke is held WO the car runs much better and smoother, however what's confusing is that instead of smoking black the engine smokes white. I have new had gaskets and all that stuff, so maybe it's running hot. I just drained all my radiator fluid (distilled water for a flush) maybe that's contributing to it running hot, or it could be opening the choke all the way causes it to run lean and therefore hot.
3.)I did just like you said and saw not fuel trickling in, which honestly confuses me a little, shouldn't there be fuel flowing in?
4.)I don't have a fuel pressure tester so I'm not sure how to test it.
5.)Not neccessary becuase it runs.

Thanks, DacMan

DacMan

So I adjusted my choke and it runs really nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so pumped! The only problem is that is smokes white kinda bad, and I don't know why other than it must be getting hot and not having any coolant to keep it cool. I don't know why but it still really likes having the dist turned clockwise a 1/8 or more turns from the usual spot. Looks kinda ugly, but it runs! Any ideas?


Thanks RollingThunder, DacMan

DacMan

Here she is running:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQT9fIa4-2c

sflthndrckn

white smoke may be caused by worn piston rings also. if you're missing oil in a couple weeks and you're not leaking it this may confirm this. it may go away as well. its common on engines/cars that havent been run for ean extended period of time to smoke for a bit

Rolling Thunder

Well it seems we've made some very significant progress! First id like to mention i wouldn't recommend running it without coolant if I understood that correctly. Running without coolant will cause "hot spots" that could develop into cracks. This is because cast iron absorbs a lot of heat energy and causes some parts of the cast iron exposed to heat to expand faster than the metal its attached to and cracks. Anyways so where do we go from here? No black smoke out of the exhaust is good. I didnt see any white smoke out of the exhaust if thats what you meant only from the valve cover. White smoke out of the valve cover is an interesting subject (well not really actually lol). See what your seeing may be the combination of a few things. First being that the car hasnt been run condensed water has a tendency to build up in the crank case. This should boil out after being run and the oil heats up. The other cause is as stated above the rings. Blow by gasses get forced past the rings during combustion. Now this is normal there will always be some no way around this as long as its not excessive its not a problem. To combat this they installed a PCV. What this does is allow the blow by gasses to be evacuated into the carb so they can be burned. You have no PCV valve installed that i could see so obviously that isnt happening so naturally the blow by gasses will vent out the valve cover. To make sure the rings are good you could run a compression test if you wanted and although as crazy as this may sound running some TC-W3 2 stroke oil in your gas (1 ounce of 2 stroke oil to 5 gallons of gas) has been tested to improve idle quality and compression by lubricating the rings slowly over time (approximately 4 tanks of gas). If the white smoke is out of the exhaust especially if its cold out theres a lot of condensed water that build up in exhaust systems. Give it a good run and see if it clears up. Although definitely add some coolant lol

Rolling Thunder

Well as far as the fuel although it does seem a little counter intuitive to not see fuel trickleing in but it dosnt require that much fuel and if it was trickling in it wouldn't be atomized well enough to run well anyways even if it needed that much fuel.

On the fuel pressure tester although we've made some good progress i still think it would be a good choice to do. The fuel pressure tester itself can be purchaced for as little as like $10 and many are also combination fuel pressure/vacuum gages which is another test that can yeild alot of good info. A vacuum test can reveal anything from late ignition timing low compression bad valve guides on and on and on. Its really like giving your motor a physical every time you hook it up because because it reveals so much about the general health of your motor. Its a good tool to have something to consider but as always your call.

DacMan

I would deffinatly like to know my fuel pressure just to see if the hack job that istalled it before me put on a good one. I will put coolant in soon, and won't run her until it's in (I hope I didn't ruin anything by running without it). I have a really good compression tester kit and will test compression just to know. I'll try that two stroke thing and see what happens, I'm excited to see? BTW I drove about two feet forward and backwards today, you should have seen me, like a kid at christmas lol. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help, I truly couldn't have done this with out you, I got so frustrated I even put the car up for sale on craigslist.

Thanks, DacMan

Rolling Thunder

Well im glad to hear its going so well. I wouldn't have guessed that we would get it to start and move under its own power so quickly. I can imagine how exciting that must have been after all that cars put you through lol. With it running now you should be in good shape finish up getting the car together and do some fine tuning as well as iron out any other kinks that come up along the way. You can reconnect the ECMs control of the timing and set the timing to factory spec and see how she does from there. I know just how frustrating it can be with these kinds of things so glad I could be of assistance. Its all about persistence no problem can exist indefinitely if you work at it.

DacMan

Yeah it's amazing what two days talking to you can do compared to three months of troubleshooting, not to say others advice was bad, but I wish I would have talked to you three months ago lol. I hope to get her done in three or four months. I'll be sure to send you pics of her all painted and together.

Thanks, DacMan