Bull

iTrader: (5)

I have a no-crank condition in my '92 TA 350. Turning the key does not engage the starter.

If I put the key in the ignition in the "RUN" position, and then jump the positive and negative terminals on the starter with a remote start switch, the engine cranks and will start.

I am wondering if this is a sign of an internal short in the starter? Or might it be a VATS issue?

Finally, in the bunch of wires in the harness down by the starter, there is one very small wire, perhaps 18 gauge or so, that is not connected to anything. There is no connector on the end, as it was cut off. It is dirty, but appears maybe to be whitish in color...but really is too dirty to tell. Can someone tell me what this wire is for? Again, it is the smallest wire in the harness with the three positive starter leads, one negative starter lead, and some plastic connector with a blue wire that plugs in down low on the block which I think is the ESC/detonation sensor.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew89tpi

Definitely VATS related for sure. The starter inhibiter relay is bad. As you sit in the driver's seat you'll find it on the left by your feet underneath a cover that has some kind of tar paper stuff covering the hole. HTH

northern-tpi

I have a similar condition on my 89 Camaro. I don't think this is VATS related. When you turn the key over look at the security light. I have heard if the security light goes off then your VATS is working correctly. I know there is a starter relay on the fire wall. Replacing this may solve the problem and it is cheaper than replacing the starter. However it sounds like your starter is working fine since you can crank it with cables.

Does anyone know a good way to test the relay, or is it just easiest to replace it since it is probably origional??

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the info, guys. I am going to try and find this starter relay and see if maybe that is the culprit. Thanks again, I'll update when I have more info regarding the relay.

bbates

Hey Bull;

I am having the same issue and I have been looking for the part. Been to AutoZone, Advance Auto and NAPA and also the Chevy dealer. When I asked the guy at the Chevy dealer he said there was no such thing as a starter relay and I was able to find from him that there was a VATS relay. Also, I think I found the right part with NAPA.

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...eterrent+Relay

I have ordered the part and it is supposed to arrive on Wednesday.

I will let you know if this solves the problem for me.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Hi bbates,

Yes, please do let me know if you solve the problem. I still haven't tackled mine...too many other projects going, haven't had any time for the TA!

John 89 Formula

Check the starter solonoid, aside from the battery cable and main power feeds there is also a small wire connected to one of the small terminals. This wire activates the solonoid and kicks over the starter. Sounds like it may have come off.

I had the vats go out on my car once, it would crank fine but wouldn't start.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

How can you test the starter relay to see if it is functioning? I have a multimeter, but don't know how to use it to see if the relay is doing its job properly.

l_dis_travlr

If it starts by jumping a terminal at the starter, it most definitely is NOT a VATS failure. The VAT system controls: a starter relay (behind the drivers kick panel on my 90 Formula), a fuel pump relay, and a wave-form signal to the ECM (which inhibits all ignition functions.) I agree w/ John 89 Formula -- look for a failure in the ign. switch input to the starter solenoid.

Good luck,
kk

Bull

iTrader: (5)

kk, can you snap a pic of what the starter relay behind the kickpanel looks like on your car? I just pulled the kick off of my TA to look for a relay, and don't see anything that looks like a relay to me.

Also, is there a simple test to perform with a multimeter to determine whether the ignition switch is faulty?

Thanks a lot.

Andrew89tpi

One way to test the ignition switch would be to check for voltage at the purple wire on the starter when the key is in the START position. This will tell you if you have power at the starter. Another way would be to test the yellow wire on the bundle of wires on the ignition switch. If you have power here the relay is probably bad or you have some bad wiring between the switch and the starter.

If the relay for the VATS is bad it won't let the starter work with the key. If there is a VATS malfunction the SECURITY light would be on and flashing. The VATS disables the starter and the fuel injectors. The wires for your starter relay should be two yellow wires from the ignition switch, a green wire with a white stripe to the starter and a little green wire from the VATS module. The relay is like some of the other relays that are used for the fan and fuel pump on the older cars(88 or 87 and older). HTH

Andrew89tpi

Here is a picture of the relay.

Andrew89tpi

Here is the relay in my car. To bypass the relay temporarily, connect the two big wires together.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Andrew, your wiring description and pics were HUGELY helpful to me. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to help.

Using them, I was able to locate my relay. Oddly, it was not behind the kickpanel, but directly behind and a hit above the fuse block, electrical-taped to a large section of wiring harness.

Mine looks slightly different than yours in that it does not have any mounting tabs on it. It is a square Hella relay, and looks similar to ones I have pruchased at Radio Shack for various projects.

My battery currently is low and needs to be charged, with only 9.5 volts, but I did a few basic tests.

Holding the relay in one hand while turning the key to "Start" with the other, I can feel the relay engage and disengage with the key.

Also, using a voltmeter with the key in the "Start" position, all the wires going to the relay except for the small black wire with yellow stripe have battery voltage (a bit less, around 8).

Do these results point to the relay and ignition switch doing their jobs properly or not?

If so, what is next to check?

Andrew89tpi

Sounds like the relay is working like it should. The only other thing I can think of would be the wires from the starter to the firewall connector. You did say that you have some kind of mess going on at the starter with wires, right? It's possible that a wire could have been burned up by the exhaust. As much of a pain as it is the wires near the starter are probably the culprit.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I'll check that next, then. Where on the firewall is the connector located?

Oh, if the relay is being engaged by the IGN switch, then the switch must be working, right?

Andrew89tpi

Yeah the relay should be okay. I forgot to mention the black wire is a switched ground from the VATS module. The connector on the firewall will be on the drivers side under all the relays, but I wouldn't think the wires are messed up at that particular spot because it's so hard to get to. Probably wouldn't hurt to look around there just to see if you can find any damage though.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Well, I now have the starter problem solved...cranks like a champ with the key every time.

But, all of a sudden, the car won't run. Starter cranks, but no ignition. I am pretty sure it is the fuel pump, as when I turn the key to the "On" position, I cannot hear it come on as I used to.

Guess this car is going to fight me every damn step of the way

John 89 Formula

With the key in the on position does the ses light turn on? If not replace the fuse on the radiator support, with all your wiring work the fuse may have blown.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Hmmm...come to think of it, I don't think the SES light did come on with the key in that position.

There's a fuel pump fuse on the radiator support? Man, I have a lot to learn about these cars...so many wires and sensors and all!

John 89 Formula

There is a fuse on the radiator support that supplies the ecm and fuel pump circuits, On my 89 it was mounted on the dr side radiator support, your 92 may be different.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Happen to have a pic of the location, John?

John 89 Formula

These pics are from my 86, I don't have the 89 anymore. Look in the areas circled in red for a connector with 2 heavy wires coming out of it. There is a 20 amp fuse in the connector.

fbird92

On the '92 that fuse is located on the passenger side right near the battery. It is mounted up on the inner fender.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the help, guys. I'm going out to work on the car in a few minutes, and will check this first.

fbird, on my '92 TA, the battery isn't on the passenger side, it's on the driver's side. Is your car different?

fbird92

I have a 92 firebird. I wasnt sure that there is a difference between the sub modles. But in my 92 the battery is on the passenger side and that is where the fuse is located too. Figure i would say where mine was since it was a 92. Sorry if the info was wrong.
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Chances are if that fuse is blown you have a break in a wire some where. That fuse powers up your ECM, to the oil pressure switch, and the fuel pump. When the fuse went for me, i had to find the break in the wire and mine was the wire going to the oil pressure switch.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

fbird, no apologies necessary! I appreciate your help.

Odd about the battery location, though. On both my '92 Formula and TA, it is on the driver's side. Both are 350 TPI cars. Maybe battery location depended on engine? The TPI airbox is on the PS, so maybe TPI cars got DS battery trays.

John 89 Formula

Actually there are battery trays on both sides. When I converted my 89 from TBI to TPI I had to move the battery to the other side, everything to install the battery was already there.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Well, John, I found my fuse on the DS radiator support, in the position of that first pic above that you posted. Thanks for helping with that. The fuse was ok, but I followed the wires from it, and found that the weatherproff connector that supplies power to them had come unplugged. Plugged it in, and the car started right away.

One problem at a time, I'll get this car figured out and back on the road.

I can tell that there is a battery tray on my PS, too. But, mine is located underneath where the charcoal cannister is, which itself sits on a bracket. If I wanted to relocate the battery, I'd have to move that cannister and bracket.

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

Hate to bring this to the top but this has been the most helpful article yet. I am having the same problem intermitetly with my firebird. Apparently there's been some handy work with the wiring under the dash. When I went looking for the vats relay for the starter I found a big blob of electric tape and the two big wires (yellow and green w/yellow stripe) are spliced together. Now is it a problem to leave it like this, or is this just bypassing the vats.

-Jim

Andrew89tpi

That should be okay. Someone took the relay out to eliminate it. Don't worry about it unless you want the starter disable to work. You might be having a problem with your neutral safety switch. Try starting in neutral when it starts acting up. HTH

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

Did that and still nothing, so I broke out the old multimeter and here is how it goes (sorry to hijack your post but it sounds like were having similar issues).

When it doesn't start:
10.3 at the starter relay jump
12.6 at the starter hot lead
8.0 at the solenoid trigger (s terminal)

When it starts"
11.7+ at the starter relay jump
13.0 at the starter hot lead
10+ at the solenoid trigger (s terminal)

I replaced the ingnition switch, thinking it was worn and not passing good volts, still giving me the same problem, what gives!

Andrew89tpi

Only other thing I can think of is the wires at the battery maybe. Kinda outta ideas now. sorry

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

hey thanks for everything, your early diagrams helped me to narrow it down, this should be a sticky, Isearched forever before I found a post with good help with this.

-Jim

Green89IROC305

the starter could be bad and have poor contacts within the sylinoid. i had this on my 91 rs. and my 89 iroc and my 91 firbird. when you turn the key do you hear a click? also as your trtying to start it try hitting the starter with a wrench if it starts while your doing that its a bad starter. thats what i had to do with the 89 iroc to get it to start before i replaced the starter. also as far as the click is concerned, on my 91 rs everytime i turned the key it would just click. sometimes 3 or 4 times before the starter would engage. also on that car if i drove for and shut off the car, and came back 5 minutes or so later it wouldnt start. this is caused by a build up of heat in the starter causing it to not engage.. this is also a indication of a bad starter.. in any case replacing the starter on all 3 cars fixed the issue.


also starters arent so bad to buy my 91 was 100 dollars and my 89 iroc was 45, which is strange sincce they are the same starter but it was several years apart. one thing to watch out for when replacing a starter(assuming that is the prob) is if you still have your torque converter shroud on your car it is very easy to bend this while installing the starter. when bent it will (or atleast for me it did) rub on the flywheel causing a horrible sound i pulled the starter, shimmed it 4 or 5 times before i figured out the cause of the sound. this was on my 91 rs.

gearhead0384

iTrader: (7)

Awesome Thread! This was just my problem after I replaced the ignition switch and neutral safety switch. I jumper the yellow and green/white wire and the car started. Thanks a ton!!

Kevin

atapia14

Hey guys I'm trying to track down the problem with my 91 camaro, 5.7, I have a brand new battery and starter but the car won't start. When I turn the key the starter engages with the fly wheel but it won't turn. You can hear the whining of it wanting to turn but nothing. I've heard it could be a timing belt issue but I'm not sure

Green89IROC305

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. but there are really only two possible things I can think of.

First the engine is used which is worst case.

Second the starter is seized which I have seen. This is the best case.

essentially the way a starter works is there are these permanent magnets along the outer lining of the starter chassis.

We feed electric current into a stator which rotates based on electromagnetism inside the chassis.

you can have the gear engage and snap into the flywheel but still have a seized starter.

best bet replace the starter if that doesn't work you've got to seize the engine.


and as a general informational point our engines do not have a timing belt we have a timing chain they typically have very little problems compared to belts.


Also holy necro thread.

I totally forgot I ever posted the above answer.

you can also test turning the engine by hand but make sure you turn it in the right direction I feel like that direction is clockwise from memory but I've never been good with rotational directions. If you can turn it over by hand using a breaker bar or something of that nature then it's definitely just a starter simple fix.

Ananother thought I have is you could have grounded the starter to the engine somehow but that's pretty obvious you'd get a lot of heat at the battery and potentially sparks



Good luck let me know how it goes.