Xophertony

i am trying to retrofit a 98+ power mirror switch into my 1988 firebird. i have found many threads on the subject, none of which have helped me at all.

the collors on my 4thgen power mirror switch are as follows:
ORANGE
BLACK
WHITE
GREY
YELLOW
BROWN/WHT
LT-BLUE
RED/WHT

the cloors on my thirdgen switch are as follows:
ORANGE
BLACK
LT-BLUE
WHITE
WHITE/BLK
LT-GREEN/BLK
LT-GREEN
YELLOW

what i am looking for is somone who has done this before to tell me which wires to connect to where, or to link me to a thread that tells me which wires to connect to where.

most of the threads i found upon searching were threads telling people to search. the others said "look at the wire diagrams". i have looked at the wire diagrams extensivly, (the 3rd gen one in my service manual and the 4th gen one HERE) i have mached up the wires by function and i usualy end up with a switch that will up/down the left mirror and left/right the left and right mirrors at the same time . i have at this point been without mirror control for about three months now.

i am posting this in "electronics" and "body/interior" for better results. also please do not tell me to search, i have searced, and searched, and searched........... however if you happen to know of a thread where this is covered in the detail i am needing and have a link to it i would realy appreciate it. thankyou.

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

Do a search. Let's take a look at your wires and lay them out so we know what goes where:

4th gen ('95 Firebird):
Orange = 12V+
Black = Ground (12V-)
Yellow = Up/Down (switched 12V+, normally grounded) - goes to both mirrors
Light Blue = Left/Right (switched 12V+, normally grounded) - goes to both mirrors
Light Green = Driver Up/Down
Brown/White = Passenger Up/Down
White = Driver Left/Right
Red/White = Passenger Left/Right

----

3rd gen ('85 Firebird - my Helm manual):
Orange = 12V+
Black = Ground (12V-)
Yellow = Goes to both Up/Down motors (switched off, not - or +)
Light Blue = Goes to both L/R motors (switched off, not - or +)
Light Green = Driver Up/Down
White = Passenger L/R
Light Green/Black = Driver Left/Right
White/Black = Passenger Left/Right

====
Ok, let's go through what each wire does when the a switch is pushed:
====

Driver Side Up Power:
3rd gen: Yellow is +12V, Light Green is -12V.
4th gen: Yellow is +12V, Light Green is -12V.

Driver Side Down Power:
3rd gen: Light Green is +12V, Yellow is -12V.
4th gen: Light Green is +12V, Yellow is -12V.

Driver Side Left Power:
3rd gen: White is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.
4th gen: Light Blue is +12V, White is -12V.

Driver Side Right Power:
3rd gen: Light Blue is +12V, White is -12V.
4th gen: White is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.

----

Passenger Side Up Power:
3rd gen: Yellow is +12V, Light Green/Black is -12V.
4th gen: Yellow is +12V, Brown/White is -12V.

Passenger Side Down Power:
3rd gen: Light Green/Black is +12V, Yellow is -12V.
4th gen: Brown/White is +12V, Yellow is -12V.

Passenger Side Left Power:
3rd gen: White/Black is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.
4th gen: Light Blue is +12V, Red/White is -12V.

Passenger Side Right Power:
3rd gen: Light Blue is +12V, White/Black is -12V.
4th gen: Red/White is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.

====
So now that we know what each wire does, match them up:

3rd gen = 4th gen
Orange = Orange
Black = Black
Yellow = Yellow
Light Green = Light Green
White = Light Blue
Light Blue = White
Light Green/Black = Brown/White
White/Black = Light Blue
Light Blue = Red/White

Oops, and here's a problem: We're missing the Gray wire you listed earlier and so unless it is equal to the Lt. Green wire on the '95 Firebird diagram, you're out of luck and you need a '98 diagram. You should really get a '98 Firebird diagram just to make sure.

Unless, of course, your switch is from a Camaro, and since I've already spent over 45 minutes working on this, I might as well finish it:

==== '95 Camaro (still using '85 Firebird)====
Driver Side Up Power:
3rd gen: Yellow is +12V, Light Green is -12V.
4th gen: Yellow is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.

Driver Side Down Power:
3rd gen: Light Green is +12V, Yellow is -12V.
4th gen: Light Blue is +12V, Yellow is -12V.

Driver Side Left Power:
3rd gen: White is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.
4th gen: Light Blue is +12V, White is -12V.

Driver Side Right Power:
3rd gen: Light Blue is +12V, White is -12V.
4th gen: White is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.

----

Passenger Side Up Power:
3rd gen: Yellow is +12V, Light Green/Black is -12V.
4th gen: Brown/White +12V, Gray is -12V.

Passenger Side Down Power:
3rd gen: Light Green/Black is +12V, Yellow is -12V.
4th gen: Gray is +12V, Brown/White is -12V.

Passenger Side Left Power:
3rd gen: White/Black is +12V, Light Blue is -12V.
4th gen: Gray is +12V, Red/White is -12V.

Passenger Side Right Power:
3rd gen: Light Blue is +12V, White/Black is -12V.
4th gen: Red/White is +12V, Gray is -12V.

3rd gen (Firebird) = 4th gen (Camaro)
Orange = Orange
Black = Black
Yellow = Yellow
Light Green = Light Blue
White = Light Blue
Light Blue = White
Yellow = Brown/White
Light Green/Black = Gray
White/Black = Gray
Light Blue = Red/White

====

You have two wires that connect to more than one other wire... Camaro version: Yellow (3rd gen) goes to Yellow and Brown/White (4th gen); Gray (4th gen) goes to Light Green/Black and White/Black (3rd gen). For the Firebird version: Light Blue (3rd gen) to White and Red/White (4th gen); Light Blue (4th gen) goes to White and Red/White (3rd gen).

I'll come back later on and see if that makes sense, but for now, see if that helps you at all.

Xophertony

totaly makes sense. the car i got this out of was front clipped and had no body work. all i know about it is that it was purple, and 98+ because of the console. i will try that first thing tomorow morning. that is almost exactly how i had it with one exeption. i had:
Orange = Orange
Black = Black
Yellow = Yellow
Light Green = Light Blue
White = white
Light Blue = light blue
Yellow = Brown/White
Light Green/Black = Gray
White/Black = Gray
Light Blue = Red/White

thankyou SO MUCH for doing all that work for me. looks like i just overlooked a portion of it. i will deffinatly let you know how it turns out. if it works i am going to write a tech article. this is a comon enough swap that it realy ought to be easy to find info on it.

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

You're going to write the tech article...? I just wrote it. Actually, yes, let me know if it works. If so, I'll rewrite and reformat my part so it's a little bit so it's easier to read, and then you can snap some pictures of the installation and throw together a tech article.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Looks like you got some super help here. When I did the swap in December, I wrote down all the connections in a notebook so that when I do it the second time, in my TA, it'll be a lot easier. I had to fiddle around with that wiring for probably a good hour or two before I got the mirror working properly! Thank goodness for Posi-Lok connectors!!

Xophertony

i was going to credit you . but you raise an interesting point. if you want to submit the article i can email you some pictures. or i can re-format and simplify your instructions (read: so 3yr old can do it) and add tons of pictures.


well, i am going to go hook this up and then drive to the computer store.

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

I know, just playing with you. I'll rewrite it so it's more readable, but first let's make sure it works.

Xophertony

it does not work . i was able to adjust the mirrors. however many of the functions were oposite. and whwn i went right/left on the driver side the passanger side one went left/right as well. in addition to that any command i issued to one mirror made the other twitch ever so slightly.

bull, what did you do? can you dig out that notebook? i realy don't want to reuse the ugly thirdgen switch. it is huge and ugly.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Crap. Went and got my notebook, and now am confused by my own notes! Because I changed the location of the switch from the stock third gen position, I had to lengthen the stock wiring with some pieces I spliced in. Some of the spliced pieces matched the color of the original wires, while others did not (because I apparently did not have lengths of that color on hand). So, my notes describe how to connect the 4th gen switch wiring to the appropriate combination of colors of stock thirdgen/my spliced wiring.

Problem can be solved by me going out to the car and removing the console top plate so I can see what color splices go to what factory wires. When do you want to have this done by? If no better solution comes by tomorrow, I can try to do it after work.

Next time, I'll take better notes!

Xophertony

whenever you get to it is fine, thankyou for taking the time to help. i am in no rush.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Ok, cool. I'll keep an eye on the thread to see if anyone else comes to the rescue, otherwise, I'll get to it ASAP.

Xophertony

cool man, thanks alot. i will get a chance to work on it again friday morning.

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

If you can, list what happens when you hit each up/down/left/right switch for driver and passenger mirrors. That way it can help me figure out what wires are crossed or messed up.
Example 1: Driver Right Pwr: Driver goes left, passenger goes left.
Example 2: Driver Up Pwr: Passenger goes down, Driver doesn't do anything.

Xophertony

if for some reason bull does not get me the info i will do that, but i don't want to hook it all up again wrong, just to test.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Should be home by five, hope to be investigating the wiring by 5:15

BTW, what method are you using to make the connections? Crimp, soldering, or Posi-Loks? If I might act as an unaffiliated salesman for a moment, use the Posis...makes it sooooo easy to take apart and put back together as often as necessary!

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Ok, I went and checked it all out. Here is how my switch is wired.

4th Gen blue to 3rd gen blue
4th gen yellow to 3rd gen yellow
4th gen orange to 3rd gen orange
4th gen red w/white stripe to 3rd gen white
4th gen white to 3rd gen white
4th gen black to 3rd gen black
4th gen green to 3rd gen green
4th gen brown w/white strip to 3rd gen green

I'll check this thread after dinner to see what you think. My mirrors work perfectly in all functions, including the left/right selector switch.

Xophertony

well, right now i am just twisting them together, once i am sure what goes where i will use male/female spade connectors. i have never seen posi-locks before. they look cool. where do i buy them?

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Here's the link to the company that makes them:

Posi-Lock(R) - The Best Connectors You'll Ever Use!

You can order direct, which I have done, and at a savings over places like Summit. Wal Mart carries some of them, too. They make wiring sooo much better. Good connections, weatherproof versions available, reuseable, can't praise them enough.

Have you tried the wiring yet?

Xophertony

it does not work ): . also, there was no mention of anything connectiong to thirdgen white/blk.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Ok, see how I have two white wires on the thirdgen side? Maybe one of them has a black stripe that I did not see. If so, then just try reversing the above two connections.

Try that real quick and see what happens. What are the mirrors currently doing i.e. which functions work and which do not?

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I just went and found my old thirdgen switch in the basement. There are two white wires on the back, neither of which has a black stripe. So, if yours does, then I guess the wiring changed slightly from '88 to '92.

Go ahead and try the swap I just mentioned in my post above. If it does not work, then we'll try another step.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I also noticed that in your original post that you have one solid green wire and one green with black stripe. My thirdgen switch has two solid green wires. So, you might have to reverse the connections to green that I described above, in addition to the connections to white.

Xophertony

i will try that.

this sucks. dozens have done this... yet only a select few (you guys kick ***) are replying. i know somone out there has done exactly what i am doing. 98+ camaro switch to 88 pontiac. i am about to say "screw it" and use the swithc i pulled out of a 91 buick park avanue.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

You know, I have felt the same way on occasion. This is the largest thirdgen tech only site, and yet sometimes a technical post will only get a few responses.

Don't give up hope, we'll get the 4th gen switch working. Post up your results later with switching the green and white connections, and if it doesn't work, please describe what the mirrors are doing. We'll get it.

BTW, just noticed you are using a Camaro switch. Is it the joystick style? I used a Bird switch, which might be different from a Maro.

Xophertony

it's the joustick style. i'll go check that wireing and take a picture and re-post

Xophertony

ok, i tried it two ways. the first was superkevs way,with the wires set up as follows
3rd gen (Firebird) = 4th gen (Camaro)
Orange..... = Orange
Black........ = Black
Yellow....... = Yellow
Light Green = Light Blue
White....... = Light Blue
Light Blue.. = White
Yellow...... = Brown/White
Green/Black = Gray
White/Black = Gray
Light Blue.. = Red/White

i get the following results
mirror-action = actual action

driver-left = driver-right + passanger-up
driver-right = driver-left + passanger-down

driver-up = driver-up + passanger-right
driver-dn = driver-dn + passanger-left

passanger-up = passanger up + driver side twitch
passanger-dn = passanger dn + driver side twitch

passanger-left = passanger dn+right
passanger-right = passanger up+left


then i tried it with what bull originaly posted combined with superkevs wireing info to fill in the blanks, and i ended up with the following wire match:

3rdgen = 4thgen
orange... = orange
black..... = black
wht/blck = red/wht
blue...... = blue
yellow... = yellow
green.... = grey
gen/blk.. = brown/wht
white.... = white

i get the following results:
driver-up = nothing
driver-dn = nothing

driver-rgt = driver and passanger right
driver-lft = driver and passanger right

passanger-up = driver up
passanger-dn = driver down

passanger-left = nothing
passanger-right = nothing

and as prommissed here is a picture of my switch. you can kindof see my temporary console plate in the backround.

Xophertony

any ideas?

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I am wondering if the 4th gen Camaro joystick and the 4th gen Bird switch are wired differently. Can anyone comment on this? Anyone have 4th gen service manuals to reference?

Has anyone out there done this 4th gen switch swap using the Camaro style joystick?

I myself am out of ideas since the wiring appears to be slightly different from that in my car.

On a board this large, with so many members, there should be more people chiming in here!

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

I'm looking at the wiring diagrams now, but it will take me a bit to figure out why you've got problems. Your opposites (driver left = driver right, etc.) tell me that there are wires crossed, but that's all I can figure out right at the moment.

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

Yes, it's different. I was just looking at that. You'll need a Firebird one for it to work. Look at the 4th gen Firebird R/L motors... you'll notice that they share a common wire, where as the Camaro version R/L motors do not.

I'm betting that's your problem right there. I didn't notice it at first when I wrote up the wiring instructions because I had done the firebird one initially, and then since I had a template I just quickly did one for the Camaro switch. Toss that Camaro switch, get a Firebird version, and you should be set. I'll have to wire up a proper Camaro version for the Camaro owners as soon as I get my hands on a 3rd gen Camaro diagram.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Great info, Kev.

So, Xophertony, looks like an easy solution! Plus, your Bird should have a Bird switch, anyway lol

Xophertony

dam! i paid 65$ for those switches.... robbery. perhaps i will take it back to the junkyard and say it is broken, get me a firebird one instead...

thanks for all your help guys.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Contact tpi-hearse from this site. I bought both of my switch panels from him...I paid about $30 for each one (no shipping involved, picked them up). I only use the mirror switches, and the rest I guess I'll sell to make back some of the money. $65 is too high, IMO.

Let us know when you get the new switch.

Xophertony

well, to be fare to "foster auto parts" of portland i should add that i also recieved a shifter plate from a fourthgen console for that price

Xophertony

well, the auto parts place had no joystick style switches from firebirds. only some ugly square one. what years were those available on?

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

Go to the Pontiac dealership.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Ugly like this one, you mean?



I don't know if Firebirds ever used the joystick style, I think they might only have used the style that I have. I don't know where you'd mount it on a stock or early 4th gen console, but on the later 4th gen consoles ('97-'02) it fits like a glove in that little pocket there. I don't think it's visually offensive, either! You might have to learn to live with it, unless you want to go nuts with the wiring for the joystick.

Xophertony

well, i think that one is the same as alot of the poncho ones from the late 80s and 90s. i will hit the u-pull-it today and see if thats true. i also have a nice one i pulled from a buick park avanue, i could use that. i guess it does not matter what id looks like, i am going to hide it anyway. thinking of some sort of stealth install insidt the center console lid. i'll keep you all informed. thanks.

Xophertony

thanks to everyone for your help. I GOT IT! i went to the yards today and got a firebird switch. hooked up as follows:
3rd gen wire = 4th gen wire
orange . . . . = orange
light green. . = light green
green/black . = brown/white -or- purple white. depending on switch.
white . . . . . = white
white/black . = red/white
blue . . . . . . = blue
yellow. . . . . = yellow

this is for 3rd gens with 87-89 wireing. changes were made in 90-92. i am also prety sure pre-87 is different. but that is outlined above by suprkev.

super_kev

iTrader: (4)

Good deal. I'll get to finding some other year camaro and firebird diagrams so we can do a writeup.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Dude, that is awesome! Congrats on the install. I'm going to toss back a beer in celebration.

Xophertony

i am allready working on it. what i realy need to know is when the wiring changed from the style that you and i have to the kind that Bull has (the lack of strypes to distinguish between the two white and green wires).

i also need to know what wire the 4th gen firebird shares between the two motors that the camaro does not, so i can include that in the writeup. (i believe making it shared would allow the use of the Camaro switch)

thanks again for all the help guys.

Steveh4263

iTrader: (1)

I can't seem to find the male connector that plugs into the 4th gen mirror switch in this photo. Anyone know the part number for the 4th gen mirror switch connector.