AE With A Manual Trans
#1
AE With A Manual Trans
I've been looking at EBL logs and I have noticed on a lot of my "casual/light" shifts I never get into AE. This results in a consistent lean spike in my WB just after that would seem to be solved with AE. My VE tables certainly aren't perfect. But they are getting there and are fairly smooth. This phenomenon might be falsely affecting this range of my VE table so I am curious if this is a commonly witnessed issue. I assume lowering the TPS delta threshold would be the solution?
At the same time this plays into something I have always wondered, which is how people judge the WB delay when looking at logs. Do you accept that the "accurate" WB readings are going to be a certain amount after the event you are trying to concentrate on? IE throttle lift, throttle applied, etc. Because if the delay is substantial enough this could be a result of DE pulling too much right? I am running a Innovate LC2 WB with a filter of 30% in the EBL WhatsUp preferences.
Below is a example of what I am seeing. For reference I can engine brake in these same areas of VE table and not get lean pops with WB in the 13s/low 14s. So that kind of verifies in my thinking that this is AE related and not just a VE problem.
At the same time this plays into something I have always wondered, which is how people judge the WB delay when looking at logs. Do you accept that the "accurate" WB readings are going to be a certain amount after the event you are trying to concentrate on? IE throttle lift, throttle applied, etc. Because if the delay is substantial enough this could be a result of DE pulling too much right? I am running a Innovate LC2 WB with a filter of 30% in the EBL WhatsUp preferences.
Below is a example of what I am seeing. For reference I can engine brake in these same areas of VE table and not get lean pops with WB in the 13s/low 14s. So that kind of verifies in my thinking that this is AE related and not just a VE problem.
Last edited by dabomb6608; 06-24-2024 at 08:49 AM.
#3
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Non-EBL user here.... but on my 7730, for both AE TPS and AE MAP, I lowered my thresholds for entry to get rid of the lean spikes.
AE TPS went from 1.17% to .39% (the minimum you can set). It may not seem like much, but on my Miniram I notice it on the "casual/light" acceleration.
AE MAP went from 3.13 kPa to 1.5 kPa. Again, it seems trivial, but I can feel it via seat of the pants.
I used to see lean spikes into the 15-16:1, but now, I stay in the 13's.
Also, keep in mind that there will be a delay between the event and the WB reporting due to the time it takes for the exhaust gases to get to the O2 sensor. For the NB response that the ECM reacts to, 7730 has an adjustable parameter for that. But on the WB, you just need to make a mental note about it.
AE TPS went from 1.17% to .39% (the minimum you can set). It may not seem like much, but on my Miniram I notice it on the "casual/light" acceleration.
AE MAP went from 3.13 kPa to 1.5 kPa. Again, it seems trivial, but I can feel it via seat of the pants.
I used to see lean spikes into the 15-16:1, but now, I stay in the 13's.
Also, keep in mind that there will be a delay between the event and the WB reporting due to the time it takes for the exhaust gases to get to the O2 sensor. For the NB response that the ECM reacts to, 7730 has an adjustable parameter for that. But on the WB, you just need to make a mental note about it.
#4
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Non-EBL user here.... but on my 7730, for both AE TPS and AE MAP, I lowered my thresholds for entry to get rid of the lean spikes.
AE TPS went from 1.17% to .39% (the minimum you can set). It may not seem like much, but on my Miniram I notice it on the "casual/light" acceleration.
AE MAP went from 3.13 kPa to 1.5 kPa. Again, it seems trivial, but I can feel it via seat of the pants.
I used to see lean spikes into the 15-16:1, but now, I stay in the 13's.
Also, keep in mind that there will be a delay between the event and the WB reporting due to the time it takes for the exhaust gases to get to the O2 sensor. For the NB response that the ECM reacts to, 7730 has an adjustable parameter for that. But on the WB, you just need to make a mental note about it.
AE TPS went from 1.17% to .39% (the minimum you can set). It may not seem like much, but on my Miniram I notice it on the "casual/light" acceleration.
AE MAP went from 3.13 kPa to 1.5 kPa. Again, it seems trivial, but I can feel it via seat of the pants.
I used to see lean spikes into the 15-16:1, but now, I stay in the 13's.
Also, keep in mind that there will be a delay between the event and the WB reporting due to the time it takes for the exhaust gases to get to the O2 sensor. For the NB response that the ECM reacts to, 7730 has an adjustable parameter for that. But on the WB, you just need to make a mental note about it.
I will definitely give that a shot. I have the same basic parameters available to me. Delta TPS % threshold and Delta Map Qualifier. Currently set to 1.96 % and 2.19 Kpa.
That confirms my suspicion on WB reporting. I had always tried to mentally remember that. I try to look for obvious readings to kind of judge what the delay is roughly.
#5
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
The only thing to be mindful of though is that the lower delta-MAP threshold can potentially trigger a delta-MAP AE event simply by going from park to drive, or in your case from neutral to gear with a manual trans.
If the delta-MAP AE is big enough, it can cause a bog or cause the engine to want to try to stall due to the sudden transient rich condition. So you have to find a happy medium.
If the delta-MAP AE is big enough, it can cause a bog or cause the engine to want to try to stall due to the sudden transient rich condition. So you have to find a happy medium.
#6
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
The only thing to be mindful of though is that the lower delta-MAP threshold can potentially trigger a delta-MAP AE event simply by going from park to drive, or in your case from neutral to gear with a manual trans.
If the delta-MAP AE is big enough, it can cause a bog or cause the engine to want to try to stall due to the sudden transient rich condition. So you have to find a happy medium.
If the delta-MAP AE is big enough, it can cause a bog or cause the engine to want to try to stall due to the sudden transient rich condition. So you have to find a happy medium.
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#8
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
The fact I am actually making progress with the tune versus before I was constantly chasing my tail at every step. That alone makes it all worth it. I am excited to really get AE where it should be. I know just by blipping the throttle my PW for AE isn't dialed in but wanted to get my VE tables a bit more in check before really getting into AE. Then noticed this phenomenon.
#9
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
The fact I am actually making progress with the tune versus before I was constantly chasing my tail at every step. That alone makes it all worth it. I am excited to really get AE where it should be. I know just by blipping the throttle my PW for AE isn't dialed in but wanted to get my VE tables a bit more in check before really getting into AE. Then noticed this phenomenon.
I was bummed when I found out the EBL for the 7730 got discontinued because I thought I had come up against the limit of what the 7730 was capable of performance-wise. So I was start to contemplate buying an EBL to get to the next level after everything I had read about and people raving about how good it was.
But then (through shear force of will I suppose) I found some more "advanced" fueling parameters in the 8D code perusing through Tunerpro and the S_AUJP xdf file which seemed to unlock performance potential of the 7730 that I never would have guessed existed. I feel like I've finally achieved the "perfection" that I've sought after for the ~20 years I've owned the Miniram.
#10
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
AE can be very tricky to get correct... believe me... lol.
I was bummed when I found out the EBL for the 7730 got discontinued because I thought I had come up against the limit of what the 7730 was capable of performance-wise. So I was start to contemplate buying an EBL to get to the next level after everything I had read about and people raving about how good it was.
But then (through shear force of will I suppose) I found some more "advanced" fueling parameters in the 8D code perusing through Tunerpro and the S_AUJP xdf file which seemed to unlock performance potential of the 7730 that I never would have guessed existed. I feel like I've finally achieved the "perfection" that I've sought after for the ~20 years I've owned the Miniram.
I was bummed when I found out the EBL for the 7730 got discontinued because I thought I had come up against the limit of what the 7730 was capable of performance-wise. So I was start to contemplate buying an EBL to get to the next level after everything I had read about and people raving about how good it was.
But then (through shear force of will I suppose) I found some more "advanced" fueling parameters in the 8D code perusing through Tunerpro and the S_AUJP xdf file which seemed to unlock performance potential of the 7730 that I never would have guessed existed. I feel like I've finally achieved the "perfection" that I've sought after for the ~20 years I've owned the Miniram.
If I can get this engine to increase responsiveness even a little bit from where it is at it will be a win. Will just be a lot of trial/error and datalog studying.
#11
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Dealing with the same thing getting pop when getting on it sometimes only thing is I'm still on 8D, haven't made the jump to SAUJP yet though want to learn the ropes first
These are my AE values any help on alleviating the lean pop appreciated, mild 350 with a HSR intake
These are my AE values any help on alleviating the lean pop appreciated, mild 350 with a HSR intake
#12
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
What you should do is go to the constant... (it may not be available in the non-S_AUJP though)
AE-TPS, Forced Index for Entry into Pump Shot Table 0x539
Then change it to 0. Factory is 3.
There's another table (one that you're showing)
AE Delta TPS PW Factor vs Async Pulse
In this table, the ECM will not always start at the first row (row 0). It'll sometimes start at row 3, which gives you a smaller AE pulse width. In your case you have 0 in row 3, so you may not be getting anything.
But this is what that constant is for.
Certain conditions have to be met to start at the first row. When you change that constant to 0, what that'll do is ensure that every time you enter delta TPS AE, you get the maximum AE delta TPS pulse width by starting in the first row. After doing this, you may need to set your AE delta TPS scale factor and PW scale factor back to the factory values of .125
Also, you need to set your maximum AE pulse width to 15 ms (factory for 4th gen LT1). Stock AUJP is 5 ms.
The other thing (and you may need SAUJP for this)....
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...osed-loop.html
If your BLMs are currently really close to 128, you can try what I did in this link. I'd be very curious to see if it has the same positive effects on someone else's car (especially with a short runner intake). I was saying in another thread, the mods in that link seem like they "unlocked" a performance potential of the 7730 that I would never have guessed existed.
Other than that, overall I'd recommend using the 4th gen LT1 AE tables. If you want, PM me your email and I'll send you my Miniram start bin. It'll have my latest AE settings in it (which are basically the LT1 with some minor mods).
AE-TPS, Forced Index for Entry into Pump Shot Table 0x539
Then change it to 0. Factory is 3.
There's another table (one that you're showing)
AE Delta TPS PW Factor vs Async Pulse
In this table, the ECM will not always start at the first row (row 0). It'll sometimes start at row 3, which gives you a smaller AE pulse width. In your case you have 0 in row 3, so you may not be getting anything.
But this is what that constant is for.
Certain conditions have to be met to start at the first row. When you change that constant to 0, what that'll do is ensure that every time you enter delta TPS AE, you get the maximum AE delta TPS pulse width by starting in the first row. After doing this, you may need to set your AE delta TPS scale factor and PW scale factor back to the factory values of .125
Also, you need to set your maximum AE pulse width to 15 ms (factory for 4th gen LT1). Stock AUJP is 5 ms.
The other thing (and you may need SAUJP for this)....
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...osed-loop.html
If your BLMs are currently really close to 128, you can try what I did in this link. I'd be very curious to see if it has the same positive effects on someone else's car (especially with a short runner intake). I was saying in another thread, the mods in that link seem like they "unlocked" a performance potential of the 7730 that I would never have guessed existed.
Other than that, overall I'd recommend using the 4th gen LT1 AE tables. If you want, PM me your email and I'll send you my Miniram start bin. It'll have my latest AE settings in it (which are basically the LT1 with some minor mods).
Last edited by ULTM8Z; 06-26-2024 at 08:16 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by ULTM8Z:
dabomb6608 (06-26-2024), STEALTHWRAITH (06-25-2024)
#13
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Stealth: Yeah I am basically no help with factory computers. I jumped straight to the EBL when I got into tuning. I would follow what ULT has done on it and suggests.
ULT: Didn't you have headache with knock sensors and false readings? I constantly do. Been a few drives since I pulled some plugs to check for evidence of detonation but I am seriously considering putting a 90* fitting on my sensor. My last drive I was seeing 1-2 SA being pulled at 60 mph 1700ish rpm 0-10% TPS with SA only at 28. There is no way it is knocking in that light load scenario with me running premium fuel and having aluminum heads. It isn't like I am pushing a 12+:1 comp ratio.
ULT: Didn't you have headache with knock sensors and false readings? I constantly do. Been a few drives since I pulled some plugs to check for evidence of detonation but I am seriously considering putting a 90* fitting on my sensor. My last drive I was seeing 1-2 SA being pulled at 60 mph 1700ish rpm 0-10% TPS with SA only at 28. There is no way it is knocking in that light load scenario with me running premium fuel and having aluminum heads. It isn't like I am pushing a 12+:1 comp ratio.
#14
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
ULT: Didn't you have headache with knock sensors and false readings? I constantly do. Been a few drives since I pulled some plugs to check for evidence of detonation but I am seriously considering putting a 90* fitting on my sensor. My last drive I was seeing 1-2 SA being pulled at 60 mph 1700ish rpm 0-10% TPS with SA only at 28. There is no way it is knocking in that light load scenario with me running premium fuel and having aluminum heads. It isn't like I am pushing a 12+:1 comp ratio.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tard-real.html
I resolved it through a combination of examining the data (as you're doing), getting a new Delco sensor, and being extremely careful about how much torque I put on it.
#15
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Yeah
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tard-real.html
I resolved it through a combination of examining the data (as you're doing), getting a new Delco sensor, and being extremely careful about how much torque I put on it.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tard-real.html
I resolved it through a combination of examining the data (as you're doing), getting a new Delco sensor, and being extremely careful about how much torque I put on it.
#16
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Yeah, I think the more non-stock you get, probably the more the knock sensor sensitivity comes into play... headers, roller rockers, etc... probably able to more easily fool the sensor with the various noises they make that wouldn't be present on a bone stock engine.
Given how dangerous knock can be to an engine, you're going about it the right way... taking data, carefully examining it, etc.
Just check your plugs too... when knocking occurs, you can get a salt and pepper appearance on the ceramic. As in that link, that was also one of the clues I was looking for to determine whehter I was getting real knock or not.
Given how dangerous knock can be to an engine, you're going about it the right way... taking data, carefully examining it, etc.
Just check your plugs too... when knocking occurs, you can get a salt and pepper appearance on the ceramic. As in that link, that was also one of the clues I was looking for to determine whehter I was getting real knock or not.
#19
Member
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
For troubleshooting with the EBL I rarely hear anyone mentioning the dump log. It gives much more information than the WUD. You can see when and how much AE fuel you are getting.
#20
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
Yep I use it quite frequently. Had this been a scenario where AE was being commanded and I was still getting the lean spike I would've went straight to the dump log. When I was referencing my knock counts a couple post up I had been looking at the dump file studying knock counts more.
#21
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
I've been busy with other things and have been spending more time thinking about this then actually trying/doing anything.
But I was looking at my VE tables and was wondering if I am seeing my AE situation affect my VE table. Specifically at the rpm areas where slow shifting and taking off from a stop are. y
Keep in mind my VE table runs pretty well but certainly has room for improvement.
You can see the raised hump I am talking about here. I wonder if my VE learns are trying to make up for this lean spike I have at shifts and initial tip in. Or is this hump a common site to see in VE tables?
But I was looking at my VE tables and was wondering if I am seeing my AE situation affect my VE table. Specifically at the rpm areas where slow shifting and taking off from a stop are. y
Keep in mind my VE table runs pretty well but certainly has room for improvement.
You can see the raised hump I am talking about here. I wonder if my VE learns are trying to make up for this lean spike I have at shifts and initial tip in. Or is this hump a common site to see in VE tables?
#22
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
One thing you should do to somewhat decouple your AE from your regular fueling is to turn on the switch for "Reset INT when AE in progress".
That's another thing the early 92-93 LT1's had as well. It'll keep your fuel trims from getting affected by the extra fuel delivered during an AE event.
It's actually astounding how much from the $DA3 applies literally verbatim to a short runner intake using $8D (I mean literally copying and pasting values). I probably would have never gotten to where I'm at on my car if I wasn't able to leverage all the R&D that GM did on the early MAP LT1's.
That's another thing the early 92-93 LT1's had as well. It'll keep your fuel trims from getting affected by the extra fuel delivered during an AE event.
It's actually astounding how much from the $DA3 applies literally verbatim to a short runner intake using $8D (I mean literally copying and pasting values). I probably would have never gotten to where I'm at on my car if I wasn't able to leverage all the R&D that GM did on the early MAP LT1's.
#23
Re: AE With A Manual Trans
One thing you should do to somewhat decouple your AE from your regular fueling is to turn on the switch for "Reset INT when AE in progress".
That's another thing the early 92-93 LT1's had as well. It'll keep your fuel trims from getting affected by the extra fuel delivered during an AE event.
It's actually astounding how much from the $DA3 applies literally verbatim to a short runner intake using $8D (I mean literally copying and pasting values). I probably would have never gotten to where I'm at on my car if I wasn't able to leverage all the R&D that GM did on the early MAP LT1's.
That's another thing the early 92-93 LT1's had as well. It'll keep your fuel trims from getting affected by the extra fuel delivered during an AE event.
It's actually astounding how much from the $DA3 applies literally verbatim to a short runner intake using $8D (I mean literally copying and pasting values). I probably would have never gotten to where I'm at on my car if I wasn't able to leverage all the R&D that GM did on the early MAP LT1's.
Keep in mind I’m running strictly open loop. So that’s either helping or hurting me lol.
Ive considered going ahead and getting a heated narrow band to install to give closed loop a shot now that the setup is running smoothly.
Last edited by dabomb6608; 06-27-2024 at 09:06 PM.
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