Sonny_T

Car:85, 5.0, G, 4bbl CCC, HO, Manual
ECM: 1226865 (as of 2012, March, GM still sells this for $150). GM has discontinued prom.

Collected Prom info:
Pullable with bare finger from ECM: yes
Need any special tool to pull prom: No
Program ID: 2E
BCC: DLB (GM Code)
Size: 4 KBytes
Year: 1985
Release date: 30853
EPROM: 16044302
ECM: 1226865
PROM ID: 4303 (GM Part #)
SCAN ID: 1951
Platform F8
Engine: L69
Displacement: 5.0
Trans: manual
FGear Ratio: GT4
Pin type: 24

What kind of prom reader can read this prom. (Sticky note has no spec on this). Thanks.

EagleMark

$2E was also used on a 16196401 ECM. So I don't know and doubt anyone has a hack or definition files for it.

Moates has a Burn 2 that would read it, but will not burn the old UV erasable chips. There is a GQ-4X that will read and burn the old proms if they will erase with UV light, hard to find them but still can. Converting it over to newer EEPROM from Moates would be better.

Speaking of conversion you have half what's needed to go to a TBI system already! Then it would run well and be worth tuning! HTH!

Sonny_T

Moates doesn't have these type 'one burn blank prom'. Got no confirmation of reader's or burneres they have will do these types of prom

Do you know places have these proms (blank or preprogrammed), or have a step by step process on how to move to a different ECM platform.

I did read sticky's i know off, and went to moates and other website to find a way.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You are looking for a way to read and program a 30 year old PROM, not going to happen too easily. Reading it, yes, can be done with an adapter, that re-wires some of the pins.

Burning one, not likely unless you build a burner yourself.

Search for the 82S181 device.

RBob.

Sonny_T

RBob,

As I learned/understood (from thirdgen) one that I have now is 'one time burn prom'. so, I wasn't looking to re-program/burn it, but only to read it. Reason for reading is, if successful of integrating a different type prom, or ecm, I have something to compare. Without this readings I have no assurity what I would be expecting.

Now as for '82S181 device', do you have more details on this, like, will it accept old prom if repin is done, and which/what pin to repin. software that would read this specific prom...

Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The 82S181 PROM is the original used in the CCC ECMs. Data sheets are available on the 'net for pin-out and programming.

RBob.

EagleMark

The Gq-4X does about a bizillion chips and the one you have is not listed... even if you could find one...

Sonny_T

I need some clarification
1. In datasheet at MOATES.net prom chip size for 1226865 is 4 KBytes,
where 82S181 has 8 Kbytes. More bytes may work. what am i missing.

2. In 'componentpartonline.com' I found 82S181 being sold as 8 dollars per piece. So 'eaglemark' when you say it is 'hard to find' what piece are you talking about.

EagleMark

That is the piece I was referring to as hard to find. You found it, but RBob knows so much more about this stuff then I. He said there is no programmer for this chip so why buy one? This Gq-4X I got was for the sole purpose of burning stock 2732a chips in older 160 baud ECM, but it will do bizillions of differant chips and it still does not have yours listed. I thought the 2732a chip were in your old ECU.

Even if you did figure out how to do this what are you trying to change? The CCC carb was a mistake GM had to make to comply with EPA emmissions regulations before EFI tech was ready. Look at all the vacuum lines and switches and valves and crap on that engine compared to the next year or so that had EFI. Just maintaining that stuff is near impossible? By the time you get this all figured out you could have changed over to a TBI system.

Tuning a chip for a CCC is a waste of time, even if it could be done.

What are you trying to do?

Sonny_T

NJ Emission doesn't like ECL on, parging won't help as car ID says it has ECM. I have done basic checking/troubleshooting of'ECL on' and I will do more troubleshoot in wiring. I am trying to find out weather ecm, bad or prom bad, or both are bad. Car had been sitting for 10 years, but otherwise in good condition. It doesn't have E or M pin, hence no data via ALDL cable

All I care is when NJ state emission person puts his 'AB shorting' device, it flashes code 12 and as he/she drives a short distance and no ECL stays up. That is not the case now. I can't pass emission, or I have to spent about $500 every year to get a waiver for 2 years, or get a historical plate and that is good for short driving and I am in risk of getting pulled over by COP for verification.

82S181 says 1024 x 8 = 8 Kbytes, is this correct?

EagleMark

Oh... I was born and raised in jersey, went on vacation and never went home!

Even in CA you can install a later model engine and pass emmissions for that year, converting your engine to TBI would be easy...

Sorry I know nothing about those chips...

EagleMark

http://www.matisse.net/bitcalc/

Sonny_T

RBob,

Am I to assume there is no known software application to read the prom I have.

EagleMark

Or you could tell them they are wrong and CCC ECM does not use pin E or M!

http://www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html

Sonny_T

It would be easier for me to convert to TBI if you hadn't leave NJ.

If no resolution, I may think of moving to another platform. How much would it run. Sticky note has one for 350 non CCC, I haven't seen one for 305 CCC to TBI.

Sonny_T

They probably know it doesn't do serial data transfer, but they want code 12 flashing 3 times. NJ is tough on emission.

EagleMark

EFI was not even invented when I left NJ, electronic ignition was just starting to come out.

Converting your car is about the same as a car without CCC, except you can use your distributor, or drop in a small cap EFI, you have a VSS already. It's been a few years since I did a conversion on a CCC, It's alot of work but well worth it in end if you like your vehicle to run well all the time.

But that link I gave you also says pre 1987 vehicles don't flash codes when A and B are shorted. So they are not testing your vehicle correctly!

EagleMark

it was a PIA when I left in 1981. Every year you had to take a day off work to get car inspected and wait in line for hours!

Not to mention I had to change my engine every year before inspection!

I have never lived anywhere with inspection since I left NJ!

Sonny_T

................
Only relief we have now is it has changed from 1 to 2 years. Service manual of 85 & dealers are saying it should flash. Any how, I believe I can pull many of mechanical pieces with some local help, but it is the electronic and Gauge stuff I am concern off. Any idea on cost

Sonny_T

RBob,

Here is a link for 82S181

http://www.arlabs.com/adapters.htm#B...PROM%20ADAPTER

will this be a correct adapter for 82S181, and if it is, how does it gets connects to a PC.

EagleMark

I saw your other thread and that seems like a lot of money to spend to just burn a chip to replace in a differant CCC ECM.

If you think your ECM is bad and can buy one why don't you? I have never seen a chip go bad...

From what I read on them it will still not flash codes like NJ inspection wants it to. They have to be informed that this CCC ECM will not do that! Unless what I read on them is wrong?

Historic plates, disconnect speedometer and add an aftermarket speedo would be easier and cheaper...

Did I mention I left NJ on vacation and never went back? I hate NJ...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Have you checked if the ECM is commanding the CEL on? Or, if the lamp driver module bad?

82S181 is a 1 KB chip, organized as 1024 addresses by 8 bits each.

RBob.

Sonny_T

--------------------------------------
understood chip size.

replaced lamp driver module with a new one. Did not resolve the situation. However when lamp driver modules out it won't light, telling me lamp driver module is playing a role.

"Have you checked if the ECM is commanding the CEL on", how should I check this.

shorting AB should blink code 12, am I right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

By measuring the input to the lamp driver module from the ECM. If the ECM is commanding the CEL lamp on, but won't flash codes with A/B shorted at key-on, engine-off, I'd say that the ECM is bad.

RBob.

Sonny_T

--------------------

Thanks, understood, will check it.

EagleMark

RBob, I am curious, if his light never comes on that is one thing.

But another site I read said not all these CCC ECM will flash codes when A and B is shorted? Kind of a grey area because some do? SOme will only cause CEL to come on when A and B are crossed. If this is the case then he will never pass inspection because they are expecting code 12 flash...

Sonny_T

------------------------------

EagleMark, since this ECM deosn't have any serial data transfer capability, it should have some 'process' to let owner know the trouble codes. My understanding is 'flashing ecl' is the way it provides 'code', either good or bad. If not flashing, what other process is there to provide 'codes'?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is my understanding that the light is always on. Engine running or not. Which isn't correct, as a malfunction usually doesn't get flagged until the engine has been running for a few seconds.

So the light should go off for 5 - 10 seconds after start up.

The lamp driver module will turn on the light if the ECM is unplugged. So there can be an issue with the wire that runs from the ECM to the driver module.

It may also be that the ECM is bad and just holding the light on. There are three q-drivers in the '6865 ECM, maybe one of them is fried.

RBob.

EagleMark

I gave you the link above read it.
http://www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html

It says serial data is on Pin D not the usual pin E or M.

It also says on bottom of this page:
One thing to note: Pre-1987 vehicles do not always use a TTL level signal to flash the byte codes. Some of the vehicles (like my 1984
Trans Am) flash the "check engine" light instead. In this case, some ALDL scantool designs must be modified with a 5.1V Zener diode and a current-limiting 100Kohm resistor on the front-end. This will reduce the +13.8V signal level to a more manageable 5 Volt TTL-level.

http://www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html

So follow RBob advice to see if CEL is working correctly. But NJ could be testing your car by sorting A and B and your ECM (might) will not and was never designed to flash codes!

Sonny_T

'EagleMark' verified ALDL 'D' and it is going to 'Lamp driver Module 'E' and not to ECM. I am following the 'diagram' got from here.
---------------

I am slowly progressing, I finished verifying continuity test of following (battery is disconnected at this point)

ALDL 'A' going to Ground -good
ALDL 'B' going to ECM '5' -good
Lamp Driver 'B' going to 'Fuse'-good.
Lampdriver 'C' going to ECM 'G'-good.
Lamp Driver 'D' going to ground-good
Lamp driver 'E' going to ALDL 'D'-good.

I will check more for any 'shorts'. Once these verification is complete I will plug back ECM, power on and will try some volt check.

Please note I did replace Lamp Driver Module with a new one with no resolution.

RBob thanks for helping.

Sonny_T

When I knew nothing (still do not know much) I bought an ALDL cable of OBD 1 for $50 and tried (10K ohms...... laptop ,,,software...budrate... etc .) and only to find out later this ECM even did not have serial (per diagram)......That is when I came to thirdgen for rescue.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

not sure why your still dealing with this ecm, but if you need to but the prom vintage parts inc has 3 of them bcc dlb gm/ acdelco p/n 16044302 looking at the price its a crazy $80.90 plus shipping.

https://www.vpartsinc.com

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This is the line from the ECM to the lamp driver that controls the CEL:

Lampdriver 'C' going to ECM 'G'-good

At key-on, engine-off, it should be in the 10 to 12 volt range. With the engine running it should be less then a 1/2 volt to turn the light off.

As this line is driven by a q-driver you can ground it safely. That should turn the CEL off.

RBob.

Sonny_T

--------------------------------------------

Per your (& chart A6) instruction, I verified followings, and here are the results.

I verified all connectivity (continuity test) per diagram starting from fuse, gauge panel, Lamp Driver Module and both ECM cable ports. All are connected exact per diagram, and no shorting or open circuit or poor connectivity any where between those devices. By the way I took gauge panel out and able to 'hang' a 194 bulb hanging from 'ECL connectors' at 'gauge's upper central connector'. I had to take it out to make sure there were not something else causing issues behind the gauge panel. All fuses are verified and they are good.
.........................

Then I have connected battery power which had showed 11.93 volts.

Followings are done with key on, engine off and no ECM plugged: ECL stayed up.
1. Voltage from gauge ECL + connector to ground 11.43 volts
2. V from 'Lamp driver module' port B to ground: 11.43
3. V from 'Lamp driver module' port C to ground: 9.56

I have also verified if any voltage leakage, or voltage abnormality from other associated port. None was there, ground was there it should have been grounded, no other spillage of ground or shortage.

Then I plugged ECM back exact same result with no ECM.

Then I pulled ECM out and followed procedure exactly per Chart A-6 and was able to complete entire process. Yes, I also took EPROM out per chart A6 instruction, and no flashing happened after a minute or so and for the whole time ECL stayed on, except per instruction when I shorted 'Lamp driver module' port 'C' to ground ECL went off.
..........

Is it correct without PROM ECM should flash Code 51?

Seniors, time to change ECM first (and not PROM yet) ?? Please let me know.


Thanks.

Sonny_T

tunedperformace, thanks.

I am getting closer and may go for a used same ECM and prom. Wish price was within $50.

Sonny_T

I got code 12, I got code 12, I got code 12!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ECL is flashing.

I bought an used ECM of 1226865 with DLB chip in it ($63). As soon I shorted Port A and B in ALDL, I heard some noise coming from engine compartment and ECL light went off and no flash. Hearing the noise I quickly disconnected A-B. Got a helper and have her do the AB shorting as I hang on engine compartment. I heard noise from two places, one from EGR relay a continuous 'cricket' like noise, and other one near headlight area (I do not know what relay is that yet) of continuous 'click' noise.

Disconnected both these 'relays' and tried again and that is when I got code 12. I disconnected working ECM and put back the factory original, and no flashes. I even put old EPROM to new one and vice versa. Both EPROM worked fine, but original ECM won't flash.

I think these two 'relays' which probably went bad many and many years back had forced ECM to die early.

In those early years of limited knowledge, and none of internet, and 50 hours of labor a week, I never had any practical means to troubleshoot these problem, unless willing to r*** by mechanics and live hungry. Years ago when ECL light pointing a malfunction, I had to go mechanic and pay him hefty amount have my car only to pass. He used to say it was fixed, but I knew I would be back and pay him 'taxes' following year. I kind of knew he probably did no work, but couldn't afford to have car sit even for a day and needed it to pass. This went on for 5 years till I decided put it in storage (couldn't junk it for $1000).

Thank you "thirdgen.org' and all who helped me to resolve this. I am not out of woods yet, but this sure was a good progress.

EagleMark

I'm happy for ya! Now you can still drive the cool old car with inspection sticker from the communist state.

My knowledge of the CCC cars is null and void but I read another thread and if I followed it correctly the EGR soliniod and MCS thingy in carb are supposed to make noise. So this is good noise.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Sonny_T

"Communist State"""

Sonny_T

A relay right next to radiator housing area with 4 wires, what is it controlling?

Sonny_T

I got it. the relay is for 'throttle control'