UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

So engine details:

355 SBC TBI

EBL flash computer, and using Tunerpro. Using stock narrowband o2
edelbrock performer centerbolt heads 1.52 ratio rockers
edelbrock headers
edelbrock performer tbi manifold

holley 2 inch throttle body fuel pressure is 20* With the utility it says I will be doing 77.4 # hr and will support 292 hp. Which is where I think this engine should be power wise. I am assuming that is FWHP.

Crane energizer camshaft, super mild. been so long i lost the card and cant find info on it anymore. If I remember correctly it was a 208/214@.050 duration and somewhere around .420/.442 lift on the 114 LSA. Again very mild.

9.8 to 1 Compression ratio I do have speed pro forged pistons

double roller chain straight up
initial timing is set at 6*

So I previously got my BPC v. VAC and BPC v. Boost #'s on another thread.

my next step is setting up the the SA-Main Table and SA-Extended table

I chatted with Thomas and he used an aluminum headed LT1 spark advance.
Should I do the same?

Do I need to mess with the VE tables or just leave them be? Those are my first 2 questions because I just wanna go over this step by step..any info anyone can provide will be useful.

Thanks in advance.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Using LT1 spark tables is a good start with those heads. Be sure they are from an f or y-body calibration (LT1's also came with iron heads in other vehicles).

The supplied 5.4l calibration (EBL_F_3001.BIN) may also be used. Note that the higher RPM/MAP timing in the main & extended tables is actually higher then it should be. The latency table was incorrect for the ICM that was being used at the time.

As for the VE table, if it starts and is drive-able just do VE Learns.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Could you post that table please?

I would like to see how it varies from ARAP which I think is aluminum headed L98 right?

I use a similar head as yours. edelbrock rpm 64 cc. Not sure what the diff is just yours may be emishions?

I have been using the stock L03 SA table but increased the calues overall. Last I looked WOT 5800-6000 was 31 deg. I believe my max is like 38 deg.

ARAP

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...rk-please.html

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

My head is emissions replacement for centerbolt engines, flows less than your performer rpm variant 165cc intake/65cc exhaust runners, 60cc combustion chamber. I did a gasket match port job on the heads and manifold.

here is thomas thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/di...-360ci-sb.html (tuning built 360ci sb TBI with EBL)

My goal for this engine is around 300 FWHP which should be able to propel my car with my stall and gears to a 13.5-13.9 somewhere there. I am happy with that. Maybe some point later I decide to go faster, but right now it's my daily and I cant have it down for long periods of time. So it's running now, just not the greatest. When its warm it is pretty good, but cold sucks. I am running the Caprice L05 calibration, with the initial SA adjusted and I did 7 VE learn's.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

That explains 60cc on a 350

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

so I should just take the #'s thomas posted and put them into my SA-Main and extended tables then go to the next step ya think?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Thomas posted LT4? I dont know if less agressive than LT1. My table is no where as agressive as the ARAP Alum head L98. I am 31 deg at WOT and it appears ARAP is 35 unless there is an adder??? I have no KC at WOT last KC I saw was at 4000/50-60 map and I suspect mechical some sort of resonance. I am gonna meet ARAP 1/2 way from my current and see what happens. I concentrated on VE and really did not push the timing issue. I now have N20 so may need to swap .bins for spray.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

OK i dont know what kc stands haha

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Knock count buddy.

Do datalogs with your learns to. Helps to go back and see what's going on. Just remember when adjusting SA your looking to make MBTwithout any knock. Soon as you see knock retard the tining where it occurs. Sure you know that though.

And post up your ve table or pm it to me. Got mine pretty dialed in now with my ae on point ill try and help

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

KC ? Sunshine Band !

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Oh okay..Post my VE table from the tune that is currently running the car you mean?

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Yeah from the latest ve learn. Just curious.

Can I see the current main SA table too? At work so can't look it up. Want to compare it to what Thomas posted. Just remember with timing your shooting for MBT with no knock. All trial and error

Hate this phone

Ghettobird52

Man I want my ebl here already! Can't wait to get rid of this rough idle

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

my current Main SA table hasnt been changed its EBL_F_2018.BIN

I dont know what MBT stands for either at this point and time...

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Man it's weird I fill in a value on the SA-Main Table

like 22 at 600 rpms, at 20. I will save it, then bring back up the table because it closes by itself when it saves and it'll show me the # 22.15 instead. Is thier someting I need to click off for this?

Ghettobird52

I believe I remember reading somewhere rbob posts that it does this. I'm not sure how and why ( looking for the thread but can't find it) and it's mathematical that's why it's changing after you save it...

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

It should save. Some of the values need to be in multiples. Like AE is only mult of 61. I f I place like 22.0 in VE it will change to like 21.94. Never had that happen. Do the values in SA look reasonable? If you cant figure it out send Magnus a pm or go to his site for Q's or email address..

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

oh the numbers are right in th eball park, only .xx away not really a big deal. was more curious to why it would do that. This is only in the SA table as that is as far as I am at the time. im pretty much going step by step with the introduction to tuning part 2....If i feel like I dont know I ask here

xch3no2

Minimum resolution, it is normal throughout settings.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As others posted it is normal. The SA can be from 0* to 90* and is stored as a byte. A byte can hold the decimal value of 0 through 255 ($0 through $FF in hex).

Dividing 90* by 256 gives 0.352* resolution. So the entries in the SA table when converted from the calibrations binary value to our value in degrees, they will be in multiples of 0.352*.

VE is the same but with multiplies of 0.391 % (100 / 256).

Some values such as BPC as used as is, so the multiple is by 1 (0 through 255).

RBob.

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

AE Settings are the same way. Well map/tps pw when you get there. MBT is maximum brake torque. Using spark advance to get the combustion cycle to occur at the right time basically. So combustion occurs at the best possible crank angle to produce the most torque. Just remember NO KNOCK. Like rbob site says a rough engine feels fast but is slow. If it feels rough readjust

Also keep the SA at idle to a minimum. Need that reserve of torque for power loses like power steering pump or ac turning on. Engine needs that torque on demand at idle

Hope that helps?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

It does help. I might have to bring my car up to you and see what you think Will. haha.

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Still learning like you. Got a long way to go. But im always willing to help when I can

thomas1976

Noticed the link is not working, here the LT1 SA tables https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...53-post14.html

Did you try it?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

I have been inputting the values into my spark table. My tunerpro starts at 20, and goes, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100. so i dropped a few degrees from the Line 25, to get the #'s for 20. Does that make sense? lol

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

so i did the spark advance table, I think I need to adjust the VE tables..what do y'all think with my engine combo or should I just keep the VE the way it is and see how she does?

INJ- MPG INJECTOR FLOW CONSTANT

Do I change that to the injector flow # I have in the utility??

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Sorry man been busy. Ill look at the tables Monday been out of town.

Just get it close to what's required for now om INJURY mow injector flow constant. How's it running with the current ve tables?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Well the car is running on the stock l05 tune decent, not great. has some flat spots, and doesnt have teh power I feel it should. So the lt1 spark table is a ton more aggressive so I deffinately think that will help. (the car felt more powerful with the 305 tbi hypertech thermomaster chip, which deffinately had more aggressive spark curves) so I am thinking that the new spark timing will deffinately make it better. I havnt dl'd the new stuff into it yet. As I had a few questions I need answered still.

OUTATIME GTA

iTrader: (2)

I thought MBT was Minimum (Spark Advance For) Best Torque.

Keep digging in Anthony!

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Edit: your right. Where did i get maximum brake torque? hmm. Must of been from one of the websites i was scanning. Thanks for the correction Right thought, wrong name.



Under: Try the LT1 spark table. Or take the two tables, compare them and see where the more aggressive advance would suit your application. Kind of like finding a sweet spot in the middle of both SA tables to give you a safe start.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

deffinately think it'd benefit from more advance all over the spark range. so that's what I did. I kind of looked at the graphs and realized what they are doing with the numbers and what kind of drop off's to do.

The VE is the next question, as well as the injector flow constant #? I dont know what to put in there

RBob

iTrader: (1)

MBT: Mean Best Torque

INJ- MPG INJECTOR FLOW CONSTANT

Set the the value of the injector flow rate (of 1 injector). Note that it is only used for MPG calculations of the WUD.

RBob.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Ok but do I put the # from the utility as injector flow rate, or do I put the # on the right hadn side for single injector flow at 0 kpa vacuum? I believe its the 2nd option that is the adjusted flow with the fuel pressure I am running correct?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Correct, the 2nd option, the value under the Misc Data as that is the true flow rate. The WUD actually compensates for the varying injector flow rate by using the BPC value.

Note that you may need to tweak it by using actual MPG data obtained the old fashion way. As the density of fuel versus the real flow rate of the injectors vary.

RBob.

thomas1976

Do 5 minutes or shorter VE learns, use the WUD VE corrections window to smooth out the Tuner Pro VE grafic, the WUD is wery practical, it is easy to spot were the correction happened, then smooth in the surrounding area.
Repeat procedure unthil corrections are within +- 5, after that can do longer VE learns.

If you use a WB02, can do the same when PE kicks in and @ WOT.

Otherwise use the dyno simulator to calculate WOT fuel requirements for all RPM's of the VE table. Adjust FP and fill in the 90-100 KPA cells, will not be perfect but close.
The gap between VE learned cells and the calculated 90-100 KPA cells, will require some "artistic" smoothig.

SA. Can use the manufacturers recommended WOT SA in the 90-100 kpa cells from around 3000 rpm up.
Some dyno simulators also show best WOT total SA, can be helpful to fill in the whole 90-100 kpa cells.
If PE adds around 3-4° of SA, your SA table will need, recommended max SA minus the 3-4°.
The aluminium head LT1 SA table is a good starting point, though it will require some tweaking.

Should be easy and fun to set up the SA tables decently/good anough with your aftermarket aluminium heads (it was for me), chances are you will feel the loss of power before getting any knock.
Not like with the factory LO3 heads were knock or not its hard to feel any difference

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

So I went ahead and put the tune into the car. She fired right up. Went for a stroll down the driveway. Seemed okay. (datalog was going). So I took her out for a quick stroll. ( i live out in the country..lucky me).

Drove fine, car deffinately felt better than what tune I have been having it. Crusing in OD and slowly accelerate a couple knocks. Nothing major.

But when I pulled down into 3rd from OD and accelerated the knock meter went off! 400 knocks like nothing! So I came back home. I turned on the learn VE, and did another datalog on about a 10 min drive. Same thing with the knocks, so I am assuming too much timing at this point and time? or should I do a few more learn VE's and see if that helps? I went into the WUD under SPK and it says "average spark retard in degrees" So it automatically deducted timing at those spots? So those spots where it shows..I should go into tunerpro and lower the timing that many degrees in those spots? this is the stuff where I get really confused...

what do you all think?

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Well broham first things first. Wherever your getting knock, retard the timing until there is 0 knock. Dont care what gains your getting, anywhere you get knock(except on start up/shut down thats usually ghost), retard timing in those areas until its gone.

Set your knock screen in the EBL display to "counts" and see the actual knock counts.

In short, retard timing where your getting knock counts and then continue with the ve table. I would slowly start to advance timing again in those areas and relearning/smoothing the ve table being very careful to not reach any knock counts.

still learning like you but i know knock kills engines, fast. hope that helps.

(thomas that was good advice, helped me a lot as well

thomas1976

Either too little fuel or too much timing. What FP are you running and how much HP does the dyno simulator show?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Need to rule out K from mechanical. If car is bone stock K may be real. Aftermarket exhaust timing chain power steering, AC, Air system pump, rockers and who knows what else.

Retard timing considerably where ever you see KC and if it reappears it is mechanical. Or add some racing gas to 92 oct and see if that helps. I get KC on start and when I go into OD or out and when I shift hard(manual). If I see KC in a low load datalog accellerating I pretty much disregard. Unfortunatly my car is so loud it is hard to hear a ping.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

I am running 87 octane for one. (so that may be part of the probem)

Im running 20 psi of fuel pressure. The utility says that will support 292 HP. I figure my combo is in that area, I dont think it's making 1 HP per cubic inch. If I bump it up to 21 it can support 305 HP.

I dont think it is mechanical because prior to this tune I drove car with stock L05 tune, and had a lot of spark knock. So I changed the knock sensor and spark knock was incredibly low. So I am very confident these are real knocks. So I will go thru and where the WUD-SPK shows spark retard, go to those area's and take out spark and try her out again. (I just reflash the stock L05 BIN in between tunes)

thomas1976

If you get knock with the LO5 SA table, there must be an issue, your aluminium heads should require almost twice as much SA.

Did you set your initial timing in the bin?

What amount of correction do you get wen doing VE learns?

What pistons, what piston to deck clearence and what head gasket are you using?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

No no thomas. I had a lot of false knocks with the stock L05 tune. I installed a new sensor and torque it to spec. and it took care of them.

I was using that as a point to say these are real knocks in the engnie. So I dont have a mechanical issue its a tune issue.

I only did one VE learn before dark last night and I didnt bring it back up yet so I do not know that information at this time.

But yes when I compared the LT1 spark table with the stock L05 I was impressed by the #'s and how the spark advance is soo much more

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I would not think the L05 vs L03 would vary much on SA. The L05 is in a heavier car. I would thing it would have less SA across the board and less peak SA as well.

I looked at my LO3 SA table and it looks like I added 2 deg across the board. Very mild table for my motor I believe. Now this week I swapped into my .bin the iron LT1 SA table. That is much much more aggressive so I pulled some timing from it and will do a trial run possibly tomorrow. I kept the PE adder at 1.0 deg so I have most timing in my table.

thomas1976

I got you there, I was refering to your "incredibly low" comment.
Somewhere around 40 knock at startup and at shutdown is normal, but with the engine running, driving or accelerting, should not get any knock with the LO5 SA table.

Could also be good to have the injectors tested.

How big is the quench distance on your engine?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Never saw anywhere near 40 knocks once I changed the sensor.

quench is a good question. headgasket was .041 compressed thickness Fel pro #1003

cannot tell you exact quench. Its a long story but I never intended to go this far with this engine. Was built 5+ years ago. Piston's were not at zero deck. Slightly less. My guesstimated compression ratio is about 9.8:1

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

just a little update. I did a couple more VE learns and the car runs great when driving her normally, with normal acceleration. (I also put in 91 octane). but under hard acceleration it still develops knocks but it is about 1/2 as much as it was with the 87 octane. So I will go thru and take timing out throught the band and see how it does then. I appreciate everybody's help thus far.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

FYI... 64 cc Edel RPM alum heads 2007 version 350 cid

Prior I used LO3 table and added 2.0 d globally

Swapped to iron LT Sa table. Went from no KC to KC,s specific at 2400 30 + 40 MAP.

Like 200 at 40map and 100 at 30map. SA was 35d AE appears but no PE. I was entering x way. Nothing special on speed. So pulled a 1/2 degree and will check it our again. MAX SA for WOT is 29 at level 4400 to 6000.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

PE is what? I know AE is acceleration enrichment, and DE is deceleration enrichment...but not what PE is?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

added fuel or optional added spark at typically TPS% > 70% resulting in A/F of 12.3-13.0. I forget either perform enrich or power enrich...

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Oh really? Ok. I am not using a wideband or an air/fuel meter so how would one know where the a/f ratio is?