34blazer

*EDIT* just going to contain one thread instead of opening a new one everytime i have a question.


yep did a search but didnt find the answer i was looking for. as some of you know im running the 7730 in my ferd. over the weekend i installed a furd racing E303 cam. .498/.498 220* at .050 and 110 lsa brand new never used for 40 bucks.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-6250-E303/


initial start and warm up it runs beautiful, a little rich but tuneable. as soon as the coolant temps hits 68*C it starts to surge uncontrollably, i expected that. i tried open loop at first and then closed loop to try to get it to stabilize while i tried to tune it. it pulls ~62 kpa at 900 rpms. ive adjusted the blm ranges to get it to somewhat idle in cell 4. it wont stabilize at 800 rpms and now DFCO wont activate. still learning about what each cell does but it seems to stabilize better in cell 5? a quick rev and pushing in the clutch will almost stall, or just stall out. WBO2 shows 11 to 12:1 afr most of the time. im just curious why it idles and acts so nice up until 68* C and then feels like someone flipped the fubar idle switch. thanks!

lakeffect2

To stabilize my idle I had to make sure the areas around my "ideal idle point" at 900rpm and 55-60 Kpa didn't have areas around it with too much change from one spot to the next, or too much "slope on the hills" of my tables. It would make it surge and fall off as it went from high to low points. Biggest change was from flattening the spark and fuel table. It didn't need much change in fuel from 800-1000rpm and 45-60Kpa.

I also keep spark to about 22* in the same areas, again little change as to not make it rev and fall off.

Also had to cut IAC steps in half in terms of max steps, so it wouldn't bypass so much air past the throttle blades (58mm) I'm down to about 40 now. Generally much more stable.

Dave

edit 09/18/11 you might want to shift your BLM cell entries for MAP and RPM slightly so that you are idling in cell five all the time. my own engine is also happier idling at 900 rpm than 800.

34blazer

i think i may have this closer to being figured out. today ive raised my idle up to 900 from 800. i had a slight surge before the cam was installed at 800. ive had little problems with it idling, after DFCO sometimes it stalls and some low rpm surging/stumbling while cruising. i bought the car with a underdrive kit installed and the voltage starts to drop off at 850 rpm. coincidentally thats when the surging is the worst. so my injector offsets are in need of adjustment. i have the Ford bosch III 19#ers. someday, when i have more money, ill go up to a larger size. for now im stuck with these. RBob, in this thread i looked up, post #3 you said that the table only adds to PW 3.9 and less. i would like to know if i can adjust the offset to get these to "act" like a larger injector because the cam has made the engine come alive but these have trouble keeping up. iirc ive read somewhere that you can do this, or maybe not idk. im running 55# of fuel pressure and maxxed my VE tables at 4000 rpm and up, the PE v. rpm table is all the way up into the 30's. my datalog shows the PW being 13.3ms at 4750 rpms. probably need a bigger set lol. also, the table you attached in post #5, should i use those values since im using that injector? thanks!!

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...gn-iii-pw.html

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to go back to a std size pulley?
Trying to ride the slope of voltage change is not going to make things easy on you.
Throttle follower and other IAC settings with manual can be tricky to get right.
A few others have had good results but I do not have any table data to give you on that.

34blazer

im debating whether to go back to the stock size pulleys, the previous owner kept them in the box and gave them to me when i bought the car. i might swap out all the pulleys when i install the new T5 on monday or tuesday. the only one that i cant use anymore is the stock PS pulley, it looks like the previous owner didnt know that it was pressed on and must have tried prying it off, so its bent so bad it shreds the belt on the ends lol. ive also had a thought about making my voltage regulator adjustable to help tune better in the future. just have to figure out where the regulator dumps the extra voltage. what IAC settings would be good to look at? there is many and its a little confusing. i notice the IAC follower for MT is zeroed out, should i adjust that? also, in my other thread i was having trouble figuring out why my MAT only displays 18 to 19*C. what is the equation for that supposed to be? thanks!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Earlier this year I tuned a '71 Cutlass, that the owner just installed a larger cam in (Olds engine as well). What would happen, was that the engine would literally flood itself, when trying to idle. It was trying to idle at around 65 to 68 KPA, but wouldn't do this for long. The owner, to get the cam broken in, installed a resistor inline with the MAP sensor, to bring the load artificially down to around 45ish KPA. It idled like a dream here.

So to get this to happen without the resistor, I pulled fuel from the 1000 RPM (and lower) and 70 KPA area, down to the the 30 KPA area to force the engine to idle down after start. It worked great and idles almost like stock, with just slight surging, that I think is due to more to cam profile than tuning at this point. I had to raise idle from 600 to 675 or so as well. He has the benefit in this case of having a heavy torque converter attached to help act like a flyweight, but I'm sure a similar strategy could be used with a manual.

I would go back to a stock crank pulley for now, and then once this is tuned then try the under drive pulley.

At idle, the alternator is probably not spinning quick enough to create a charge, so doing anything with the regulator will just be for not. I have my Datsun set to idle at 900 RPM, because the crank pulley is so small (about 5" diameter), anything lower than 900 RPM, I get literally no charge. Even at 900 it's barely charging. This is the stock pulley too. :/

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You can try those values. Be sure to zero out the short PW comp table.

IIRC, they are for the type I injectors, not the III's.

RBob.

34blazer

zerod out the low pw offset table and copied the values for the batt offset table. runs alot better, didnt have a chance to drive it more due to tranny replacement. buttoned up today and will drive it to work tonight. reset the base timing and it surged a little bit but none to serious. thanks everyone!

@sixshooter, ive pulled some fuel out from the idle area and down. but it still idles at 12.5:1 so i have a little bit more to do. actually, i have to pull more out of the whole range now except at higher rpms lol.

34blazer

anyone know the equation for the IAT/MAT in the ADX? everytime i tune the temp is different and im finding myself tuning in circles. usually i tune before work and its fairly warm and when i come home its 20-30* cooler and everything is lean. my MAT is still stuck at 18.5 and barely gets upto 19*C. brand new MAT, tried 2 so far. theres no equation in the ADX for the MAT either so i think that might be it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to use a look-up table. It is a non-linear ADC value in the data stream.

RBob.

34blazer

how would i go about adjusting the look up table?

also, more tuning this afternoon. still wants to lean out above 4800, i lift shortly after i see the WBO2 AFRs going north of 13.5. inj PW is 20.48ms @4900 rpms, the calculator im using is telling me im at 83% DC, need new injectors lol. both the PE tables are maxxed out so im just going to baby it until i get new injectors.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I have no idea. I rarely if ever use an ALDL stream.

RBob.

34blazer

hmmm well ok then lol. the MAT tables seem to be off enough for the engine to run lean at cold temps and rich in warmer air. not sure how to adjust those values without knowing what air temps the ecm is seeing. maybe a good old thermometer hung from my rearview mirror would do the trick lol

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

To set the ADX item to use a lookup table, you need to go into the ADX editor, open the item you want to edit, go to the conversion tab, click on "Send converted data to lookup table", then select the lookup table to use in the drop down menu just below that.
The Equation should be "X" as well.

34blazer

just checked and its already set to use the lookup table for temp. where is this table located so i can view and edit it? thanks!!!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Under lookup tables...

Is the Equation set to "X"?

I have yet to see a lookup table import incorrectly. My S_AUJP ADX has the proper lookup table, just the equation was incorrect.

34blazer

lookup table seems correct, and the equation is set to X. going to test the connections and resistance next. thanks!

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I'm over thinking this (on beer)
The eqution should only be "X" if using a lookup table... Yes ???
Or have you had imports that don't just have "X" ?
BTW, the table I made is in degrees F, not C because I hate the metric system
Jp

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Take a look at this thread. Some good info at the end that may help.
Adjusting the idle deadbands may cure that surge.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...jp-v4-iac.html

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

There was an issue with a build of TP RT, where an import from ADS to ADX would incorrectly import som parameters, MAT namely. In the case of S_AUJP, it would change "X" to "87."

34blazer

ever since i started leaning out the lower VE table, the surging is very minimal now. if i start it up after work(usually early morning) the WBO2 shows it running a little lean, once it heats up to about 68*C the AFR drops to normal(14.7). so what i was thinking is when the cold start fueling ended, the VE table was very fat and it seemed to have a overly rich surge. once i get the VE table where i want it, and the MAT issue fixed, ill start working on the cold start routine. main problem now is i cant adjust for variable amb air temps because my mat readout is stuck on 19*C or 64*F. ive done most of the tuning in the last week at cooler morning temps and when im driving in the afternoon, it starts to run too fat. especially when the heat starts to really soak the upper intake manifold. tomorrow im hoping to test the circuit for the MAT just to make sure its operable. if it is, im in trouble because i dont know what else it could be.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Where is the MAT located?

34blazer

right on the intake tube about 6" from the throttle blade

34blazer

forgot that i had some larger injectors laying around. they are siemens 53030262 rated at 24.6# at 39psi. found in mid 90's dodge magnum v8s. they look like single hole disc type injectors, so my question is, should i retain the same offsets as the ford bosch III? changing the intake gaskets due to a small leak and im thinking of using these. should have it running today....

34blazer

what is everyone using as a fuel pressure sending unit for displaying fuel pressure in the datalogs? id feel better seeing if my pressure is dropping off at WOT. thanks!

The_Punisher454

I've not used mine yet, but I have a ford fuel pressure sending unit taken from some little ford car (may have been a focus not sure). The sender is a small unit that mounts to the fuel rail and has a 3 wire connection.
My initial thought was to use an oil pressure sender, but then I read (on this forum) that they may not be compatible with fuel.

34blazer

ok will look for one, any idea on the ford car where it might be located? ill hit up a boneyard if i can find one around here and at least grab the harness connection

The_Punisher454

Its right on the fuel rail. Held on by two bolts.
I tried to find mine last night to take a picture, but I've misplaced it for now. I looked on rockauto.com and ford focus's from 2000 to about 2003 had a pressure "regulator" that bolts on the same as the one I have and has an electrical connector, but I dont recall mine having a diaphram like the one in the rockauto pics. I think the one I have is a bit more of a cube shape. I'll look again today and if I find it I'll post an image.

Attached is an image from rockauto.com of a 2000 focus regulator.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The other transducers that some use are Autometer replacement units. They come in 15, 30 and 100 psi. Can get them at places such as Jegs and Summit. Pricey at about $100 USD but easy to get, hook up and use.

RBob.

The_Punisher454

OK I still cant find my fuel pressure sender, but I did identify it. They come on a lot of fords 1999+ They are called an FRP sensor (fuel rail pressure). And also FRPT (fuel rail pressure and temperature) sensors. They come in 2 basic versions, a 4 wire and a 3 wire. The 4 wire includes a fuel temp sensor also. They have a nipple for a vacuum hose so I assume the pressure reading is relative to manifold pressure.

Attached are some images I've acquired from my browsing tonight.

The_Punisher454

Also here is a site where somebody is making an microcontroller based electronic fuel pressure regulator for a motorcycle application using these bosch sensors, gives part numbers.
These should be a total no-brainer to use. They work just like a MAP or TPS sensor.
http://www.madhu.com/content/Main/FuelPumpController

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I bought one of these. Good to 150 psi so I won't have to worry about it blowing out (hopefully)
http://prosportgauges.com/Premium-oi...-sender-1.aspx

I need to wire it up and connect to an air line to get the pressure Vs. Volts table built.
I'm assuming its linear output but I'd rather test it to see before installing it.

34blazer

thanks for the replies for the fuel pressure sensor/sender!
JP, will that oil pressure sender work for fuel pressure?


ive been trying to solve an after startup condition, with no good results. it cranks and starts right up, but for about a minute after initial startup it surges. it also is rich during this time. after it settles in it idles pretty well. so which tables or constants can be adjusted for after startup? thanks!

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Quote:

"This can be used for either a Premium Series Oil Pressure or Premium Series Fuel Pressure gauge"

so I figured it will be OK with fuel.

For the rich after start you should see in your logs how the commanded AFR tapers off from really rich to 14.7 after startup.
There are some tables that adjust how much and how fast the removal of startup fuel is done.
441 and 44F have two tables that may give the adjustment you need. (use F7 to sort the XDF to find them)
I don't remember which direction each of these adjustments go so just make a change and see how it reacts. Then try the other table.
You may also just want to lower the VE table in the idle area to reduce the fuel there and see if that helps too.

34blazer

ok thanks i apparently missed the description on the sender. lol

i have me VE table dialed in for the idle its just the startup. same surge whether its hot or cold. do you think i should also add in some spark too? im thinking yes since this is a more aggressive cam and ive lost a little static compression down low. it would be under startup spark, correct? thanks JP!

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking a little SA too but figured you tried that already.
If its at idle only then you would want to use the Closed Throttle SA table.
If its during warmup (before you are at the threshold temp) the main SA table at 100 KPA is used.

Do a quick check to see if the 100 KPA in the main table is what you have in the closed throttle table.
If the surge starts when it changes to the closed throttle table, that may be your answer.

34blazer

it has a hunting idle and what part of the 100kpa table should i be looking at in relation to rpm?

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

The RPM that you idle at.
The main table 100 Kpa column is used prior to switching over to the Closed throttle table when warmed up.
The values you have in the two tables should be close to each other to avoid too much change when the transition occurs.

34blazer

wow i never realized that, and theres a difference of about 7* SA between the two so im going to adjust it. thanks!!!

also, since ive migrated to texas, ive noticed that i had to re-adjust the VE table due to a really lean tune. so ive tweaked the MAT tables to help keep the tune consistant with the temperature change. its pretty close now but unfortunatley i have to guess since the MAT temp displayed is still stuck on 18.5-19.5*C. i know now that the IAT works since ive adjust the the MAT tables and the fueling changed. would there be a difference between values for the original MAT and newer IAT version lookup tables? im stumped at this point.

34blazer

^^^^

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I'm not exactly sure on that.
The way I would approach it is to set all values in the temp compensation table to the current running temp "value".
Then make all changes to the VE as you need to get pretty good fueling.
Once it is the best you can get it, start tweaking the temp table in the "temp of the day" cell to bring fueling back into line for that day.
If the temp changes enough to do additional cells then take advantage of the time to do it. Adjust adjacent cells to the new value so it stays reletivly consistent to where you have already made an adjustment.

34blazer

did some searching and came across this thread;

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...e-misfire.html


i adjusted the suggested tables as suggested but no difference. it seems like within the intial start up the ecm is overcompensating to control the idle but after that first minute it settles right in. when its warm or at operating temp it only surges for 10-15 seconds. im thinking that since the bin was designed to operate an auto tranny with a heavy torque converter, and i have a T5 with a far lighter clutch, that is the problem. i just dont know which to adjust to slow the overcompensation down. i have the AXXD for all the IAC functions, where else can i copy these values? thanks!

34blazer

mistaben

oh boy.. never thought of that... have had a "rough" idle issue for a while... that is smarts for ya.

34blazer

you are having the same issues?

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Try adjusting the minimum TPS for AE higher. (Address 52E )
At idle you are bouncing on and off AE MAP.
Not sure what you have it set at now but take it up to 2-3% TPS setting.
Could be the extra fuel dumping in is causing it.

SA is also bouncing allot for this range, Do you have the RPM error tables for advance and retard lowered in the small RPM cells?
Might help.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Looking at the log some more made me think...
Is the fast movement of the IAC causing the AE MAP?
At zero TPS, AE shouldn't be enabled ???

Keep tweaking the IAC gains (not sure which one) will reduce the swing and possibly allow it to stabilize.
I still don't see why it just smoothed out all of a sudden. Something happens right there but I don't know what.

34blazer

its weird that it gets to a certain temp and then settles right in. im afraid if i mess with the gains it will adversely affect the idle characteristics when it settles. ill try it though. another table caught my interest, the idle timeout steps v coolant or MAT temp. not sure exactly what it does? ive also reduced my timing advance/retard in the lower rpm cells, by 3* each. i could zero them out? i will increase the tps for AE and see what that does. thanks!

edit* just checked the min tps for AE and its at 1.2%, the AXXD bin i have has it at 3.9%, copied and will try that

34blazer

i was just thinking, the IAC movement if fast enough is creating the AE MAP, if i can filter this value depending on coolant temp i think it may help? same with IAC movement depending on coolant temp?

34blazer

alright, just got back from a light cruise with another question. does the ecm mainly control idle by fueling and timing, without IAC, until rpm error reaches a certain point? more specifically, when the engine is first started, whether it be at lower temps or operating temps. reason i ask is ive reset the timing error tables to the AXXD bin values and the lower rpm error was 4.92 on the advance table and on the timing retard table some of the upper values were up at 9.XX*. started it up and no more surge. granted the startup temp was 130*F but earlier today before i reset those tables it still surged but not as long. am i making sense? ill report tomorrow after i start it for the first time.

now if i can only figure this annoying IAT temp sh*t. is there a way to display the raw values in the ADX?