88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I can imagine! I think I will play with SD before I go that route though. I did read some old posts about your large tube MAF. Remind us all of how much quicker you ran the 1/4 with that setup compared to the stock MAF

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

lol, i couldnt tell a difference, i matched my best traps in similar weather with no additional gains. There may be some left in the tune since I didnt dyno tune it again, but air fuel was tuned to the same level with the street tune and timing was kept the same

All in all, it looked like a nice mod but I wouldnt do it again unless I had a much more serious engine combination, and that was a 11.4 second car in summer air. Likely 11.1-11.2 in cold air.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I think its time for me to buy a wideband. I'm an impatient SOB, so I will probably be ordering one this weekend sometime so it gets shipped Monday!

I would love to have the narrowband feeding the ECM, with the wideband installed just for tuning purposes, and have the wideband datalog-able in TunerPro. What are my options as far as that goes?

I definitely need to be able to log the wideband A/F. Whether its in tunerpro or not doesn't really matter.

gbayfisher

I know some of the Innovate units have internal recording, such as my Lm1, its a little antiquated but works. I still need the data cable to be able to download or view it on the laptop.
Here is a link on the xdf someone made up, not sure if you have seen it. It would be great if we can get it to work properly on tunerpro.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...6e-linear.html

here is another method using the autoprm from moates. I may try this route.

http://www.moates.net/zips/wideband_...nerpro_lm1.pdf

I have been starting to look more at the EBL system, looks much better than the 165. Maybe this winter.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I bought a wideband a couple of years ago... It'll be your best friend...
The one I bought was the best bang for the buck @ the time...
It's a Summit brand package but it's all Innovate LM1
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2995/
It allows you to keep a narrowband signal for the ECM and display a wideband digital read out on the gauge.
It also has a datalogging port but I've never used it... I'm not savvy enough.
I just watch the digital display out of the corner of my eye... you'll quickly get the idea!!!

I don't know why but the original is cheaper right now...
Here's the Innovate unit
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/INN-3796/

I put it up in a 3 piece A-pillar pod with Fuel Pres and Tranny Temp gauges.
Looks Sharp!!!

Keep up the Good Work...
Been subscribed for weeks!!!
GTA Sammy

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Sweet! That's exactly what I needed. I was looking at the LC-1 in the first place. It seems like it will be able to do everything I need it to.

FYI, the link to the ARAP WB bin didn't work, but copying and pasting the URL, then deleting everything after the .html got me to the right thread! Looks like all the legwork has already been done for me LC-1's can be had new for $170 on ebay, so I'll prolly go that route.

gbayfisher

for others:

direct link to arapwb

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...band-data.html

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Been using my LC-1 for years and it still working well. I'm gonna replace the o2 sensor finally since its been a long time and i just want to be sure everything is working right, but it appears to be monitoring air fuel correctly. Its a good bang for the buck.

Another good brand that I may look into and heard alot of good things about is RacePak. They make some good systems and datalogging electronics

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

That Racepak stuff looks fancy! But at upwards of $300 for a single channel AF meter that I still can't log through my laptop, I think I still like the LC-1 better.

How do you log yours? or do you log it at all?

gbayfisher

Are you considering a permanent WB at some point?

The kit you mentioned for $170, does it include a controller?

Thanks for lighting a flame under my a$$ , I had intentions of setting up my wideband datalogging in tunerpro but got lazy Its been hot, and muggy ( like most places), so effort level is down.

I modified my adx file today to inlcude the WB AFR, I just need to run the analog output the ecm now. Not sure which of two wires to use though, need more research! surprise!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I though with the AutoProm, you plumbed the AFR directly into the AutoProm itself, not the ECM??? That way it wouldn't require any changes in the bin.

The $170 is the E-bay price for the LC-1, which doesn't have a standalone display/logger/thing like your LM-1 has (I'm not sure what your capabilities are with that). The LC-1 is still programmable (not sure if its USB though), and has enough outputs to feed the ECM, a separate data acquisition piece, and a gauge from what I'm seeing. It includes a gauge too, one of those ugly digital ones.

I might keep it installed permanently, depending on how things work out. I didn't want to get a separate gauge pod, but now I'm kinda liking the idea of being able to see AFR and Trans Temp at least. Its a PITA to have to drive everywhere with your laptop connected to see if there are any trouble spots in the tune...

I'm gonna do some research and see if I can't modify my own bin to get the WB AFR in the datastream instead of starting with the ARAP WB bin. It can't be that hard right? It wouldn't be the end of the world to have to use the ARAP WB bin tho...

gbayfisher

I was wondering how it can be controlled or programed without a controller, but so long as you can, thats good.

I modified two adx files, one way to work through the autoprom, and the other through the ecm. I am waiting for a new serial cable to get into the LM1 controller because I may need to change some settings to get it to work right. I figured during the interm it may work going through the ecm 'as is'.

I haven't changed to the new arapwb bin. i would like to know what the difference is? It would be nice if we can find out how to add the WB to our current bin.
Would we need to copy our old bin changes to the new bin, one item at a time?

I am going to add two pods myself, I worry about trans temps all the time. So I will be adding full time afr, and trans temp very soon.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

They are fancy, but i thought they still could log through laptop?

My current setup uses 730 ecm with code $59 which allows you to take one of the wideband sensor outputs and wire directly to the ECM so it logs air fuel ratio. Works great.

As mentioned there are the wideband modifed 6E bins but I never used them.

WHen I had my 383 I never logged anything. Just watched the air fuel ratio gauge and laptop screen to note certain points where fueling was going lean or rich. Wrote it down on paper and went into the bin file to make changes. Then re-drive to see what happened. I was able to dial it in very quickly. Within a few days I had a pretty good tune, since I didnt have to adjust anything on part throttle. Stock MAF tables were pretty good, and I had to mess with idle and WOT only. Those werent bad.

Then I had it on a dyno to watch air fuel vs RPM and saw my midrange was lean right around where the converter stalled. Just couldnt see that lean spot on the street without logging. So I dialed in on the dyno and the car picked up 2 mph at the track

gbayfisher

[quote=Orr89RocZ;4988694

Then I had it on a dyno to watch air fuel vs RPM and saw my midrange was lean right around where the converter stalled. Just couldnt see that lean spot on the street without logging. So I dialed in on the dyno and the car picked up 2 mph at the track[/quote]

Thats why it is so nice to have it on the screen and recording, easy to go back through the log and find those very brief little problem areas. I try to watch the Lm1, but tire spin, and watching rpms makes it a litte hairy

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well my problem was partially because of the 3600 stall, it flash up and wide past first gear so fast I could only catch a breif glance at the gauge which is analog so its not as fast as a digital piece. Mainly could see 5000-6800 well. Once on the dyno I locked the converter up so the pull could be captured from 3500-ish to 6800. The log helped show some things and I quickly dialed in. Theres only so much you can do with street tuning, a dyno is very helpful.

gbayfisher

Yes, I know what you mean on a lesser scale. A couple hours on the dyno is worth many hours of street tuning, and its safer,lol.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Ordered up an LC-1 tonight!

I hate having to watch my laptop, I always work from the datalog. I will be using one of the WB bins and logging through tunerpro so I can see everything in one place. The gauge will be installed so I can see if there's any trouble spots without having the laptop connected.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah, keep an eye on the wideband gauge often, especially when doing WOT. Roll into the throttle and watch the gauge, and back out if its starting to get lean. Keep timing tables conservative at first until air fuel is in check, then add the timing back in.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I got my LC-1 tonight and started plumbing it in, I need some wire and a fuse holder, but it was too late to make a run to the parts store. I'll be using an auto meter single A-pillar gauge pod, stuck on with double sided foam tape to make it totally reversible if for some reason I don't want the AFR gauge installed.

gbayfisher

That's a good idea on the sticky tape. Have you set up the xdf for data logging yet?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Wideband gauge is installed and works. it reads 13:1 at idle, haven't taken it for a spin yet due to my steering wheel isn't currently on! (giving it a coat of plasti dip). Now to research how to datalog with it.

gbayfisher

Cool!


How far are you into the datalogging portion?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I found pin D8

gbayfisher

That just may be the hardest part!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

With any luck at all!

I will steal a pin from one of the circuits I removed, and relocate it to pin D8.
I need to reprogram my LC-1's other analog output to be 7.35-22.39 AFR = 0-5 V, and for that I need to find a computer with a serial port, which might be difficult!
Then I need to copy my settings over the ARAPWB bin
and lastly add in the WB 02 item definition in the .adx file, and use this equation: X*0.05898039+7.35

Seems pretty simple

gbayfisher

Go get your self a serial to USb adapter. Where is that bin copying tool again?

Do you normally have it idle at 13:1, or will you lean it out some?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I'll only use the serial port once.... There are some older computers at work that prolly have serial ports.

Apparently that's what it idles at lol, I haven't changed it too much.


I already have the changes in my bin copied over to the WB bin, and I have the definition added to the ADX, so after I splice in the connection to the ECM, I should be good to go!

gbayfisher

Will you be able to read the WB as a stand alone unit to verify a proper reading when data logging? Thats is... once its hooked up to the ecm.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I could log it through a serial port if I had one, but I'll compare TunerPro to the gauge at first. From what it looks like on the other threads, it should be pretty accurate.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

IT WORKS!!!

Just had it idling for a bit beings its 1 am and I've got the muffler off to add a hanger, so I prolly shouldn't be driving it down the road.

It seems like its accurate, but its hard to say without driving it.

Instead of reprogramming the second output, I just spliced it into the first one as well. so both the gauge and the ALDL are on the same output. I don't think that will be a problem.

gbayfisher

How is the WB add on working? I finally had the moment to get mine going. It works well, and it will be nice to have the added data while logging!

I get a small variance between the lm1 and tunerpro readout, for instance; at 14.5 on the lm1, it will read 14.7-14.9 on tuner pro, its hard to pinpoint the reading because it bounces alot on the datalog, but the average is a little off nonetheless.
I played with the equation alittle, and it now reads very close; 14.5 lm1 equals 14.5-14.7 on tunerpro.
I was wondering if you see a small variance or not? I don't know why mine would show a small variance when the equation is correct?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Driving around a little bit yesterday I noticed that my Wideband and my NBo2 readings are a little bit different. The BLMs adjust until I start seeing 16+ AFR on the wideband. I'm gonna set the wideband up to simulate NB, and wire it into the ECM today and see if that makes my BLM's target something a little better than 16:1.


Also played with AE some more, and it was nice finally being able to see the changes on the wideband. Despite what Orr says, the major changes are in the %BPW vs coolant temp table. At operating temp, the values in my bin are about 10x whats in the factory bin. With the changes to that table only, I'm seeing 12:1 AFR when I mash the gas, but pig rich with small throttle input, i.e. starting from a stop sign. To correct this, use the AE vs LV8 table.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

ECM is telling what air fuel to target. BLM of 128 should target stoich of 14.7 but if the o2 swing points are changed, you can target different air fuel ratios. I'm not sure the WB02 used as NB will help, but I've seen a post where one was used and it changed the BLM's drastically. You may have to try and find out.
On stock codes, I've seen a wide variety of o2 mv settings so they all target different air fuels. low MAF flow at idle may target much leaner conditions than stoich, and that is perfectly fine as long as the engine is ok and running smoothly at those conditions.

Give it what it wants. 16 is lean but may not hurt. Closer to 14 will give better power and better feel during cruise but uses more fuel. It may not be as efficient. Just have to see what the motor likes best.

If you want to try getting BLM's of 128 to match closer to stoich, I think you will need to adjust the swing points lower. Some settings are in the mid 500's range mv at low MAF flows which I think makes it richer, while at cruise the swing points are lower making it leaner.

With heads/cam/headers, all bets are off, and you may need to play with the swing points to compensate for overlap from the cam, pulling fresh air into the exhaust stream. generally try to the make idle abit leaner and part throttle cruise closer to stoich.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

How do you adjust the swing points your talking about...
I thought that I was doing OK with my WBO2 in Open Loop, but when I put the car back into a Closed Loop it SWINGS back and forth like crazy!!!, like it's always trying to compensate for something....
I'm running 165 6E TPRT as well...

Watching and learning from the rest

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

IF you are using the expanded xdf then you should beable to access the o2 parameters. Few tables listed in TP RT.

Theres a closed loop rich/lean o2 threshold vs airflow
Upper reference for slow o2
Lower reference for slow o2
Fast o2 rich /lean threshhold vs airflow.

I would try to adjust all 3-4 of them in equal amounts as needed. Watch your BLM and wideband to see if the BLM of 128 is matching what you want to see on your wideband. That way BLM should target that wideband o2 air fuel ratio of your choice.

Fast o2 rich/lean threshold table and closed loop rich/lean threshold should match each other.

Its something you can play with. I've tried it before for idle, and didnt quite get it all figured out so I went open loop with wideband o2 gauge to tune fuel.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I suspect a faulty o2 was to blame for the mismatch.

I already connected my WBo2 to the ECM, and it seems pretty happy with it. I see 14.7 during cruise and even at idle (although it smells rich, I'll play with the swing points for that). BLM's were all over the map, but I started with a fresh bin when I plumbed in the WB gauge, so that's to be expected.

Even if the ECM was targeting a different CL AFR, I still am reassured that the the AFR I'm seeing on my gauge is the exact same AFR the computer is seeing.


Sammy, there is a good article in the guidebook about O2 swing points and R/L threshold. One thing to pay attention to is that the threshold value lies in between the upper and lower values. The threshold should be half way between the upper and lower values as well I think. Generally the only place you need to play with them is if your car can't idle worth a crap. My cam is mild enough that I don't need to mess with them too much.

CL o2 mv swinging is normal. In CL you can't pay attention to the O2 much, just watch the BLM's.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Well today I sold my daily driver Civic, so I'm driving the TA for a few days. Should give me a chance to dial in my tune at 60-65 mph

First things first, I've noticed a little hesitation at steady state cruise, kinda like a miss. It goes away as soon as I give it a little throttle input. I'm guessing it has something to do with the spark advance, but I don't know whether it needs to go up or down. At 2000 RPM, I get maximum spark advance to 36* at 80-96 LV8. Any hints or suggestions?

gbayfisher

At what rpm does this occur? I have usually noticed mine wanting more advance and or more fuel when it hesitates like that, but hard to say, you have 36* already. Experiment with the timing a bit more, see if that changes anything.
I am in the process of adding more timing into my low lv8 rea as well.

Does it pull timing at that moment?

You didn't mention a lean spot, so I would take that its fine.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Well today I ordered the EBL P4 flash for my car, so I guess this ends the MAF portion of my tuning experience.

I never really did get my tune dialed in to where I was happy with it, but I was making mechanical changes right up until the day I parked the car. I think if I had a few more weeks to work on it, I would have had it pretty good. As it was, the car was perfectly driveable, but when I parked it for the winter I was working on retuning after I swapped fuel pumps, and was now getting adequate fuel pressure at all RPMs.

All in all, my impression of tuning a MAF car is that I think it would work much better on a car that wasn't as heavily modified as mine is. I would have swapped to MAP a lot sooner of I had the spare cash. We'll see how the EBL works out. Hopefully this thread will help out someone else who's thinking of starting out tuning their MAF car.

gbayfisher

Congrats on purchasing thhe Ebl ecm! I'm sure you'll be happy with the change.

Tuning from scratch on a new system is always tedious, but you learn a lot on the way. I'm in the same boat with a recent swap to the Ebl, so I look forward to the company!! Lol
Map tuning is definately more invloved, but I believe the end result is more rewarding, especially using the Ebl ecm.


This thread was a great learning tool for maf tuning. I believe the same for partII "map tuning"!
Good luck!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Gbay, I assume you have your wideband hooked up to your EBL, what's it give you for AFR with the engine off? I got my EBL installed, but it gives me ~48:1 AFR with the engine off. (I'm not quite ready to fire it up yet, no coolant, no MAP sensor connector, and no throttle body). I'm guessing this is just something to do with the ADC, so I'm not too worried about it yet.

Did you use your old spark table values from your MAF tune? I'm working on putting together a starter bin at the moment.

gbayfisher

Lol, you are further than me!
I have been busy this weekend getting the intake back on. i do have the Afr hooked up, and it is giving me an incorrect reading as well, I went through theADC and tried a few different settings but didnt get it close enough. I have been meaning to post up on the EBl thread but wanted to get the mechanical side done first.

i am looking to start mine up this week i hope.
Yes i copied the timing settings from MAf

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

It turns out my LC-1 wideband doesn't match either of the two default Innovate WB settings in the ADC page. I had to enter it in the User Devices page, and then choose it in the ADC page. The LC-1 is 7.35-22.39 AFR from 0-5v by defualt.

gbayfisher

Does it read accurate now?
My MTX-L reads a afr percentage at key on, then flips to the ratio after start up, weird but confirmed with Innovate. What does yours read at start up on the gauge?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

My Innovate I dont believe provides any read until the sensor reaches temp then it reads correctly. takes maybe 1-0-20 secs. I have mine wired key on engine off WB off. engine on-WB on. Sensor is susceptible to damage if left on engine off or left off engine on.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

How do you have it wired to come on with the engine?

Yes, mine reads right now. 7.5 while the sensor is heating, then full lean @ 22.1 when its warm. The EBL matches the gauge.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

The wiring was offerred by Innovate(Forum). I might be able to locate it by a search. will try to locate.

Correction...I have mine wired: key on -pump runs- engine off -WB off. engine on-WB on. key on fuel pump runs... when pump shuts off...WB off....key to starter position...pump on WB on engine starts.

My buddy that is an auto electronics expert wired it. Involves a relay of two.

Here is info on permanenet wiring with tips:http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...LM1_Manual.pdf

Now that I think of it I just showed this to my friend and he was good to go.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, the manual for my LC-1 leaves out that part about cranking voltage spikes. I guess I could wire it to come on with the fuel pump, but as it is now, its wired according to the LC-1 manual.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I killed a WB sensor twice due to operator error. Once I left on overnight. And once I neglected to turn on. By permanently wiring wont happen again.