88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

My car's getting to be pretty driveable now! AE is still a little bit lean, PE is a little bit rich in spots, and the BLM's wander around a little bit, but its starting to come together. I need to work on the SA table quite a bit, but my 350 knock sensor and filter are on order, and I don't want to start pushing the spark up too much without knowing the knock sensor is working right.

gbayfisher

Nice to see that you are getting closer!
What does the SA table look like right now? Did you just cap the maximum for the time being , or bring the entire table down?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

23-34* throughout.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I'm still struggling to get my AE tuned right. Its becoming a problem since I've been working the spark tables and every so often, as I'm accellerating, I'll get 50 or so knock counts (it just occurred to me it may be too high SA at higher LV's, but that still doesn't explain the lean spot).

The truth is, I still don't really understand what table is most effective to edit in this area.

Take a look at the log, and please help me out if you can. Note the problem spots at about 0:30s and 3:17, its kinda a long datalog.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

For AE, try playing with the AE enrichment vs change in LV8 table. Thats a delta LV8 table, so if your cruising at 80 LV8 and accelerate to 150 LV8, thats a delta of 70 so adjust the table at 70 to get better AE/pump shot effect.

gbayfisher

Are your knocks audible, or you going off tunerpro?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Tunerpro knock counts. I can't hear them at all.

gbayfisher

Have you tried adding more ae at 64-128 area?

I am getting the same problem, just making some changes myself and going for a run. I get way more knock counts than you however, dont know what gives!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Mine were much higher before, then just for grins, I swapped out the entire spark table for Orr's 383 spark table, which ADDED a pile of spark in that area (specifically my problem was 148-164, and at 2500-2700 rpm) After that, I only get 4 or 5 knock counts, and only when the throttle is in motion (although I've never been at steady cruise at 150 LV8 to confirm this).

I used this as a baseline for AE, and ended up increasing it from there. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...815-post4.html

I think the problems you and I are seeing are related to the large, monoblade TB. As our throttle opens, its allowing much more air in per degree than the stock TPI TB. I would try adding a bunch of AE into the BPW vs Ref pulse table, in the first few pulses, and see if that helps.

But look at those values in the link above, and it will show you just how BIG of a change you might have to make to all the tables.

gbayfisher

That is very interesting indeed, good point. I always knew my intake would be tough to manage, just so difficult at times to figure out 'where' to add or remove. I will have to try tht approach. One step forward and two back.

I believe I am chasing my own tail at the moment, such as.... I got suckered into removing too much spark and adding too much fuel which contributes to almost the same symptoms as too little fuel, and too much spark.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

One more thing, What %TPS do you have PE set to come in at? I'm right at 50%.

What I'm seeing in the logs is a lean spike for the first couple of samples after I crack the throttle, followed by an immediate jump to 960mV o2 when PE takes over. At first it was leaning all the way out, and flatlining the o2, but now it "only" goes to 50mV, so I guess its getting better lol. Oh the joys of nbO2. I keep pulling PE fuel, but it hasn't made a difference yet, it has to at some point tho, I mean there's only one possible table for PE!

We're all just chasing our tails lol. Get your BLM's right, then work on spark, and when your spark starts getting close, you'll have a more complete burn, resulting in less oxygen, making your BLM's go out of whack again! I had my BLM's at 124-132 before I started playing with spark, now in some areas they're back at 118-140!

gbayfisher

My pe is set to come in at stock setting for now, I have played around with it, bringing it down to 50% but it just became another factor messing with me
Remember, it sometimes takes big changes!

Lol, no blms for me, open loop only for now, I really want to drive so one less thing to worry about.
Once i get it closer, I will start another bin and mess around in closed loop.

Are you getting lean pops or bogging when you see the lean area?
Wondering if its a non issue, perhaps something that happens, but generally goes unnoticed in most cases.

I welded my wb bung in today, so I can finally read the wb02. I was suspect of the reading my nbo2 was showing me, but after verifing it against the wbo2 I was quite suprised how accurate it was overall, just slower i guess.
You plan on picking up a WB?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Solved a couple of little problems today. My PS pulley was a little out of alignment with the water pump pulley, so I adjusted it a little, and now no more belt squeak!

I have been having some trouble with high idle lately. Possibly due to my spark advance at idle being higher than it has been in the past? it sits at about 28* @1000 rpm. But I epoxied shut the minimum air hole in my LS1 tb, and now she idles about 50 rpm higher than the commanded speed. Maybe it was just cuz of my ported throttle body, and the fact that the throttle blade has a huge circumference compared to stock, and there's a tiny gap all the way around it. Now I gotta re-tune my startup fueling tho.

I ordered 36# bosch III injectors today too. They're about $200 cheaper than the 42#, and without a power adder, I won't get anywhere close to needing that much fuel.

Something that kinda worries me though, is that my 19# injectors have been seeming to keep up just fine. o2 mv's seem to drop off in the upper rpm range, but it still stays rich (since I'm not done tuning PE yet).
Also, I'm only seeing about 200 gms/sec of airflow at 5900 rpm in 1st.

Can my stock exhaust manifolds and cause THAT much of a power loss? I know I need to rework my intake too. The air filter has a noticeable hiss off idle, a howl at 4000 rpm, and a turbo-like whistle at 5000+


The local car club has a dyno day coming up on the 9th, and I plan to be there, fingers crossed hoping I don't break anything. Then I'll have a baseline figure to see how much of an effect letting this thing breathe will have. I'm still hoping for 300+ at the wheels, even with a strangled motor.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

You really need a WB to tune the higher RPMs. The O2s are of little use.

You should also ditch the manifolds, theyre not helping any. On a turbo setup maybe, but N/A the engine has to expend a decent ammount of work to push exhaust through them. The log style manifolds not only dont provide scavanging like you get with headers, but they are restrictive inside. How big is the rest of the exhaust?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

FWIW, my engine pulls around 320 g/sec at 5800 RPM. I havent dyno'd it yet, but it goes 0-100 MPH in around 11.5 secs, so thats probably around 350 HP at the crank. Assuming thats accurate, 200 grams ammounts to maybe 225 HP or so. Thats about what my 3.5L V6 pulls at WOT. If youve used the injector constant to tune, then that value wont reflect the true airflow.

You will need to use the inj. constant to get past the 255 g/sec limit, but with the stock exhaust, your probably not there yet.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

The exhuast has a stock y-pipe and a single glasspack. I know its terrible, but I don't have the $600 I need for headers quite yet. (or the other $400+ for the rest of the exhaust).

The injector constant is correct. I can check the datalog for MAF voltage and see if that's accurate...

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

RPM: 5823
MAF voltage: 4.29
Injector BPW: 9.17
SA: 32.34

Anything else it would be helpful to know?


After doing some reading, it seems its very possible that my stock exhaust could actually be restricting a TON of power, at least 50 rwhp.

Headers will be my next purchase, even if I have to drive around with them open for the rest of the summer.

gbayfisher

I would say factory manifolds and Y pipe are killing you. catback is probably not too bad over all. Dyno Dons headers and Y pipe fit my car very well. have ou looked for used stuff?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

There is no catback. Manifolds->Y-pipe->glasspack, that's it.
I ran it through desktop dyno just for grins, and it says with factory exhaust vs. large tube headers w/muffler is a 140chp difference. That's HUGE.

I'm gonna rework my intake tubing this week and see if I can't make it a little quieter. I'm thinking the immediate 90* right after the filter is causing the majority of the air to come in through a very small part of the filter surface area. I'll move the filter inside the engine compartment, eliminate 2 of the 3 90* bends, and the last remaining corrugated factory air duct, and see if I gain anything. I'll compare intake air temp vs. airflow and "quietness" gained. Right now manifold air temp is 140* when cruising down the road, and a little higher when idling due to the car running a little hotter at idle. My IAT is threaded into the #8 intake runner.

gbayfisher

Are you getting some whistling from the intake track? or just loud in general?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like its making 20lbs of boost at around 5000 rpm

How do you have your intake plumbed? I don't think we ever got a picture of the totally finished engine bay.

gbayfisher

What filter do you have, and how does it sound if you take the filter off?

I used silcone rubber piping. I'll post it.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

It's a K&N oval 4x8x9" or something like that. I've never tried taking it off.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Air filters usually do make some noise but shouldnt be screaming like that I'd try taking it off and seeing if the motor picks up abit.

Also get a wideband to play with. Its a good tool to verify the tune.

Also, you should be maxing out the stock MAF by 4500-4800 on that setup at WOT. So the exhaust is likely killing you there, but you still may not be at proper fuel levels yet, so things may change.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I think I need headers more than a wideband, but both are on the list. Injectors were first on the list, because I figured the stockers would be my biggest holdup. Next is exhaust, then wideband.

After that, maybe I'll put some effort into making this thing stop as well is it *should* go

Funding for my car has pretty much dried up since I've started saving for the fall's tuition

gbayfisher

Did you get the inectors yet?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Nope, not yet. I ordered them from InjectorsPlus on the 26th, so they're not past due really.

I'm also waiting on a local guy to pull the Hooker 2055's off his car. They're only 1 5/8" shorties, but they'll work until I can afford real headers

I need a silicone 45* elbow for my intake, but moving the filter back into the engine compartment helped a lot with the noise, but I haven't been able to drive it cuz I can't close the hood anymore. I should get that figured out today.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Why am I seeing IAC position at 160 steps immediately after startup, and before it goes into closed loop?

after it goes into closed loop, I'm seeing IAC counts at 30 when its cold, and 10 when it warms up, so its not a minimum air problem.

I think that's the main issue with my current idle problems, but I can't seem to find the parameters that control open loop idle. Any suggestions?

gbayfisher

There is a scalar setting for AIC start up position,and factory is 160 steps, so at start up, it could be normal?

Does it do it when warm on re-start, or just cold?
Wondering if you changed a coolant- vs idle setting?
One other thing that comes to mind is a vacuum leak that shows only when engine components are cold, and seals up after warming up, ei; bad intake gasket?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I saw that setting and changed it, with no effect. 160 is a ton more than what it idles at in CL, and also my OL BPW is way higher than what i'm seeing in closed loop.

I made some changes to my intake and throttle body, and that screwed up my tune quite a bit, and with my headers and injectors coming early next week (hopefully), I don't wanna mess with it too much. In fact, I will probably start over with the factory ARAP when I get them installed, now that I kinda know what I'm doing.

gbayfisher

Thats right, you changed the piping. What (if)did you do to the TB?
I myself haven't done any tuning lately, with most mechanical change comes a new tune!
I would agree to start from new again. It gets easier every time

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I closed up the hole in the TB blade. I was getting 0 IAC counts and 1100 rpm idle. Good news is it took only 3 chips before I had the lower MAF tables in line this time around.

gbayfisher

Your burning chips between tunes? That is a pita!
Have you considered the autoprom? So nice to tune on the fly.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I couldn't justify the extra $120 really. I may buy an emulator eventually, but I'm kinda on a budget. Hence the lack of a wideband, adequate injectors, and headers.

gbayfisher

Well.. it does add up, the line has to be drawn somewhere! You're doing a good job in prioritizing the components.

gbayfisher

Did you end up playing with the maf scalars to get enough fuel?

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Looks like tables 1 and 2 are increased from the factory bin.

gbayfisher

What bin are you comparing to?
I was doing a comparison with a stock arap and aujl, and it looks like maf scalar 1,4,5 are stepped up one setting.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Could be... Why are you worried about it? If you can't increase the highest value in the MAF table, then increase the scalar a couple notches.

I compared to ARAP since that's what I started with.

gbayfisher

Not worried, just curious what it took to get yours up to where you needed it, as a comparison.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Ahh, Well since the scalars don't actually represent what's in the MAF tables, this will be a better comparison for ya. I know table one is maxed out at the highest value, so if it has to go up anymore, I'll have to move the scalar up another notch. Table's 3 and 4 are probably still a little lean, and I haven't touched 5 and 6. I'd be interested to see how similar our tables are, in theory, the MAF tables shouldn't need any changes unless the MAF sensor itself is modified!



Take a look at the bottom of table 2, I just noticed that it goes from 2.01v to 2.2, and then 2.19, is this a typo leftover from whoever made the .xdf??

gbayfisher

Good eye Sherlock!
Mine has the same typo, not sure if its an issue but easy to fix. I changed the second last entry (2.20) to 2.12, should be close enough!

I keep reading about not having to change the maf scalars unless the maf is touched, but how does one explain the difference in the aujl bin to the arap? I am sure the same TPI maf is used from the f bodies to the corvettes, and through the many production years.

Can't wait to start getting back into the tuning, just waiting on my exhaust for this WED!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I don't quite think you've quite got the concept of what the MAF scalars are really doing.

Follow this rule:
If you can't increase the maximum value in the highest cell of the table any further, increase the scalar a couple notches at a time, until you can put in the value you want.

Its a good idea to save the edited table into the bin, and then re-open it to see the changes that you've made. Sometimes what you put into the table isn't what's actually saved into the bin. I always save and reopen the table to make sure the overlapping values at the top and bottom of the tables are as close as possible to each other.

I put together a little graphic, see if it makes any sense.




*edit. One more thing, how did you edit the voltage values in the table??? on mine, you can only edit the gms/sec side of the table.

gbayfisher

I "think" I understand them, lol. Scalars makes a constant and global change to the entire table by a set amount, depending on the scalar value. By setting the scalar higher, it will change the calculation of the table accordingly, bringing the table "ceiling" down, allowing more room for fuel changes within the same table

I changed the volts setting value by right clicking the table, go to edit parameter xdf info, try to find the row or column you need changed. The values are all there.
You can also change the table name here if you wish.

I also double check every change like you.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Yep, That's about it, the second part is more important than the first though. I usually go through the table and make increases of 3gms/sec, and when I hit the ceiling in the table, I scribble down my numbers, raise the scalar, and put all the numbers back the way they were, so there's no longer any "global increase," I've just increased the last value in the table

I have no idea why everybody was screaming not to touch them in this thread, but I would kinda ignore all the posts up until grumpy chimed in in post 23. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ar-tables.html

gbayfisher

Read that one, good read.

Amazing how far "hack" tuning has come, I know nothing, but can easily see how new it was to many only 6 years ago! Reading some of the posts from early 2000's was also alot of fun.
Wish Grumpy ( RIP) was still around.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Look what came in the mail this morning! Bosch III 36# injectors. I'm currently looking for the flow vs voltage values, and then I'll be installing them.

gbayfisher

Sweet! I saw your vid, and yes its loud!
Look back at my tuning thread, RBob mentioned the site. Can find it now since I am on my mobile. The corrections are all there, but you still need to apply it to the existing numbers, RBob figured that part out for me!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep the scalars come in handy when needing to expand the range of values in the tables. For fun, trying hacking up a factory MAF and putting the center section into a 3.5" large tube MAF body. Retune the tables to get the car to run the same again and you'll see how much of an increase is required to get back to the same level. Theres a huge difference in scalar values for that application

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I had to re-learn how to use my calculator, but I got it figured out I think I used an exponential regression and it came out looking quite a bit more linear than the original table, which is what I was expecting.

I've driven it with the new injectors, and the first thing I can notice is that it just seems much smoother. Of course BLMs are all over the map, and I need to completely start over with AE and PE.

I guess I never mentioned I got a secondhand set of hooker 2055s for cheap. My car was loud cause it was just off the Y-pipe, with no muffler. My muffler's on backorder from summit, since its a new one from magnaflow. For now, just to quiet it down, I welded a 3" coupler onto the body of the old glasspack and clamped it on! Sh!tty and restrictive, but quieter than it was before