shuanm

I have new 30# Bosch Design III injectors from FIC. They are replacing some accel 24# that were a bit small for my new engine build. I'm using a 730 ECM and $8d code. The engine starts and runs fine in mild to hot weather, but I just found this morning that it doesn't do so well at 12F. I ran the battery completely down before I got it to fire. It hit and sputtered at around 200rpm and then just died and wouldn't start back. I assume it was flooded as when I got my battery charged back I held the pedal to the floor and it fired again and did the same thing. Everything was fine with the 24# injectors even down to 0 deg F. Is there a relationship between injectors size and the startup table that I can apply, or is it hit and miss, or is it compensated for with the injector constant?

71403

12deg ambient start is going to pull the battery down pretty good, you may need to adjust the voltage PW compensation table to account for the different characteristics of the new injectors.

shuanm

there was plenty of fuel. When it did finally start raw gas came out. I figured I needed less fuel with the larger injectors. FIC was nice enough to give me the voltage offset figures.

1tpi

What was the voltage offset figure numbers

shuanm

I'm not quite sure how to send you the page, and I'll have to do the fuel pressure math again, but I noticed that after I plugged in the voltage offsets I'm a little rich across the board, but it seems to run much smoother with less surging at steady cruise. I'll get my VEs back in line and see if that fixes things.

shuanm

16.0v=610.36
14.4v=823.99
12.8v=1007.09
11.2v=1312.27
9.6v=1525.90
8.0v=2197.30
6.0v=3570.61

That's all of the voltage range I got in the information. I assume that is fine since I don't think my starter will turn below that and my alternator won't go higher than that unless something is seriously wrong. The rest I left at stock aujp settings.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For cranking there is a scalar value at $3AD. It is a double byte value and is usually set to 13108 for 22#/hr injectors.

Reduce it by the ratio of 22 divided by 30. That should/will take care of the flooding on start up.

RBob.

The_Punisher454

really, I had avoided changing this one in the past, since it said "do not change" in the xdf notes.

Is the above voltage offset table right for bosch III's ? can anybody confirm that? I've been using the stock multec table, but I suspect the BoschIII should be different.

shuanm

That's what Jon at FIC gave me. If you would like to see the math, PM me and I'll email you the tables. It's very close to what was in the tables stock. Not much of a change. A little lower at 6v and a little higher at the rest. It made my car run a little rich by a datalog, but smoothed it out a bit it seems. Maybe I was just hoping it did, or maybe being a little rich it what my engine likes, and when everything is adjusted back it will be the same.

shuanm

I'm not quite sure what I need to be able to edit my bin that way. I'll read in the guide and find out though. I've only used tunerpro so far, but I'm not scared.

The_Punisher454

change the parameter "crank PW vs. Coolant temp, scalar for max PW"
The default value in tunerpro is converted to 200.01 msec (the internal native value is 13108) you want something like 146.67 msec for 30lb injectors.
At least thats what I assume that RBob was trying to say.

shuanm

I just have a Crank PW Vs. Temp table in my xdf. Should I scale all of these, or leave them and make a new entry in my xdf? I've never done that before. I always just take what I get so far, but I'm more curious lately. I've always wondered what editor was used for the raw code input and hacs though. I've just never had time to get into all of that, but I'm interested.

The_Punisher454

its not a table, its a single constant value. If your XDF does not have it, just download SAUJP and look at that item in that XDF, and copy it.

shuanm

There is really a lot of stuff it that xdf. Is it OK to use that xdf for everything instead of super8dm?? Thanks for all of the help from everyone BTW.

The_Punisher454

SAUJP is a modified version of an $8D AUJP. A lot of things have been changed and or added. And quite a few things are re-located. Basically, NO.

I'm not sure whats the most complete and up-to-date $8d xdf out there.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You could change the crank vs coolant table, although some of the values are already fairly low. With it not being in the ECU/XDF file, it can be done in TP with the hex editor. Later when you get a chance it can be added to the ECU/XDF file.

Doing the hex edit will get you going now. See the two pictures (get into hex mode by CTRL-H). Scroll down until the left side address is in the 0003A0 range. First pic shows the two values highlighted with the stock calibration (33 34). Note that these are in hex.

Second pic shows the values to use (22 23). Type them in, then select Action and commit. Close the hex window and save the BIN.

If you want to play with the hex/decimal conversion use the windows calculator. Can type in 13108 and click the Hex radio button. The value of 3334 will be shown.

RBob.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Nobody is really sure which is the best to use.

Just for clarification,
The S_AUJP V4 XDF has ALL of the $8D parameters listed from the calibration section of the bin.
I did not "filter" the items I wanted people to see, they are all if you need them or not. This can look daunting to new users.
Using the catergories makes it easier to find related items to edit.

Items with ??? on the description are not confirmed for calculated values and are not documented in other ECU/XDF files. When contemplating changes with those items (which are rare because if they were common some info would exist) just use caution and try to understand what they are doing and relate the effects. Feedback on them is encouraged.

The $8D definition is not changed with the S_AUJP, only things are added to the end of the cal section for the custom code.
I have made every attempt to get it to be correct (see the thread about it) but there are different "old" $8D files that add to confusion if the conversions are correct.
I wish more people would use it and report issues so we could have a fully documented XDF instead of multiple copies that are incomplete.

I'm in process of generating another version with the corrections put in as they appear in the S_AUJP thread. (needed for a while) If anyone has found anything incorrect or descriptive error, Please post it or shoot me a PM.
Most appreciated,
Jp

shuanm

RBOB, I found the scaler in the saujp xdf, and edited it that way. the math I got made it 25 8C and plugging the number 22/30*200.01 gave me 146.674. When I use the calculator and 22/30*13108 i get 9612.5333... when I convert it to hex it shows 258C and that is what is in the bin hex editor after I did the math on the scalar. Should it actually be 22 23. Maybe I did something wrong or I'm missing something. Is my math correct?? I am playing with the windows calculator. I wasn't aware before that it was scientific as well. I always just had the generic dollar store calculator interface. Thanks a lot for your help. Let me know if I did something wrong. I haven't written the bin to my chip yet. There is too much snow here to drive it anyway.

shuanm

JP, I'm not sure I can help you yet with any of the stuff in the xdf as I'm not fully aware of what I am doing. I did do some comparisons with the axcn, aujp, hypertech 121326, and my custom calibration. I did notice that some of the stuff that isn't included in the super8d xdf are different between axcn and some all of the others. I use axcn and aujp for examples because I have iron heads on my 355, but I use a T5 transmission, so I play with different iac stuff to see if I can get my tune to work well. I don't really get enough time with it to figure the stuff out completely, and it's 100 miles to the closest dragway so most of my stuff is theoretical on the upper end as I rarely get a WOT burst of over 5-10 seconds, but I can get the driving around part pretty close. I assume you created the saujp xdf? It really has some interesting things. Is there a document that covers the function of the entries in it? I love research, but online most should be taken with a grain of salt and find several that agree before applying anything. That's why I ask questions here. Most everyone that replies to a post actually know what they are talking about. If there is anything I notice I will definitly PM you with whatever info I come up with, but remember I don't know what I'm doing most of time so take what I say with a grain of salt as well. I appreciate everyones help here though. My car may still run terrible wwere it not for the info I got here.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Many of the XDF items have comments in them taken from other definitions etc. (Select and press F2 to see them)
Only way to realy know on the other things is to dig into it.
There is a commented disassembly posted on Moates site that I worked up for AUJP back in 2005. Under "Source Code and Hacks" called AUJP JP2.zip (JP1 file is the original and was updated to the JP2 version with allot of data corrections)
That file is relocatable and assembles same as the original file.
This was the starting point for the V4 bin. The documentation was derived from the info in the ANHT hac that still had many errors in it. With much help from Z69 and others on here we were able to make it more complete and able to be changed and added to.
There are only a few code changes between the manual and auto bins, the cal section is the same and values changed and different bits set.
take a look at it if you get time.

The math you calculated it is correct in either case,
(22/30) * 200.01 = 146.674 mSeconds = 258C in Hex
The XDF converts the value to MSeconds by doing "X/ 65.536"
The native value would be 9612.42 (146.674 * 65.536)
(22/30) * 13108 = 9612.533 (same value just not in mSeconds)

Again, some XDFs may be in mSeconds, some may have the native value. That's whay its hard to nail all of the items down exactly the same.
Niether are wrong, just the same only different

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

RBob,
Where did you come up with the 22 23 value?
You using new math ?

irocuroc

just want to clarify something that may help... The injectors you have the Bosch 3 30's are rated at 39.15, If your fuel pressure is 43.5 they are 32.. All your calcs are based on 22/30.. That could be why you are a little rich. 2lbs is 6.66% to much fuel. isnt it?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Oh yea, snow. And I wanted to move further South but the SO said no. I don't want anything to do with this white frozen stuff... Then again, the South seems to be getting the same white stuff that us Northerners get...

Not sure what is going on with the math. From the way back machine, division and multiplication can be done in any order. So:

13108 * 22 / 30 = 9612.5 = $258C

Which is not what I posted earlier. Not sure how I came up with the other value. Even playing between hex and decimal it doesn't add up to 22 23.

Although I had to have done something wrong there...

Ah, figured it out. Divided by 22 and multiplied by 33 (see the pattern), then it comes out to 22 23. Which of course is incorrect. But at least won't flood the engine. Don't use that value... Use the 25 8C

The best part of this thread is that you understood my reply/post.

RBob.

The_Punisher454

So, the SAUJPv4 xdf file is okay to use on a standard $8D bin, only the specific SAUJP stuff is changed? I had been using two different XDF's, simplifying to just one will be nice. Thanks.

shuanm

irocuroc, that should ring true, but the fuel injectors were custom made at FIC for my Stealth Ram. Since they were custom sizing the body, they also customized the flow. The bench flow sheet shows that they are flowing 30# @ 43.5psi. I see where this would factor in without all of the information though.

shuanm

I was just checking me. Thank you for helping me find what I was looking for.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Um, not really. Just made an error in the math on my part. I was glad to see that you understood what I was saying/posting more then just blindly copying what I posted.

Understanding is important, that is what opens the door.

RBob.

shuanm

What I should have said was "I was just checking me". I thought maybe I missed something. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess I was just too short. The thanks a lot was genuinely sincere. I appreciate it.

TG Goose

man am I glad I found this post, i've been trying to figure out how to lean out my 36# injectors on start up.

using the formula I came up with 122.22 (Crank PW vs Coolant Temp) is this correct?

shuanm

122.67 is what I got, but I don't have the exact flow numbers for your injectors. If you're using higher pressure to make your injectors flow a little more that would be in the ballpark I think. I'm just going by what I've learned in this same thread though. I'm sure someone else knows more than I.