d-day

Hi everybody im new here, my name is robert. ive been reading lots & lots of DIY burning, flashing, programing ect.... ive been reading this
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...uide-book.html

wow lots of good info. my question is, i'm really looking for kind of an all in one burner type of deal. i have been using Win adal to have chips made which is just coasting too much, so i would like to start programing my own stuff. anyway thanks for any help and kick *** site..... oh by the way i guss i should tell you what i'm trying to tune, remember its custom. toyota 20r engine with chevy 2.8l tbi, using a WB o2 sensor, no cat, no egr, manual trans

dan0617

I use tunerpro rt for software, and the burn2 from www.moates.net. Very happy. Price can't be beat. If you want to spend more you can get set up with a tune on the fly setup but for alot less with the burn2 and Tunerpro you can be tuning!

d-day

cool thanks for the info

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

It sounds like you already have a cable for datalogging.

If that's the case, then I would look at adding other products to it.

If you just want to datalog and then burn an EPROM, look at adding a Burn2 from moates.net or a GQ-3X from mcumall.com.

If you want to add real time tuning, VERY NICE to have, add in the Ostrich 2.0 from moates.net. I have a couple of these, one that I leave installed in my Datsun, and one that I use on other people's vehicles. You can make changes while the engine is running, or just use it as a quick way to upload a new tune without the need to burn a new EPROM, and re&re that EPROM. Just plug in the USB cable, and upload the new bin.

In anycase I would use Tuner Pro for actual tuning and datalogging purposes. V5 has some very nice features, like the ability to make your own custom dashes, and new features planned for the future, like plugs ins that will support some other features and possibly even some other products.

d-day

very good info thank you, im looking at
http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=197

and
http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=39

for a chip, does this make since?
and going to use turner pro rt for programing

uraijit

You can get a better burner for about half the price of the Moates burner, that will do WAY more different types of chips.

I ended up buying the TOP853 programmer For about $45 shipped: http://cgi.ebay.com/TOP853-USB-unive...item2a081d8d12

Works like a charm, and will burn just about any chip out there, rather than just the 2-3 that work with the Moates burners.

The 27sf512 chips can also be had for much less than $5ea+shipping. I bought a 13-pack of them off Ebay for $32 shipped (About $2.40 each after shipping). You're going to want several chips for this, trust me. Maybe not all 13 of them, but you can turn around and resell what you don't use, and probably just about break even.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SST-27SF512-70ns...item1e5c949d17

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Moates stuff, but if you're like me, every dollar counts, and paying twice as much money as you could be, adds up pretty quick. The way I see it, that's money that could be going toward other engine upgrades, etc.

[/$0.02]

d-day

thanks for info ill look into this... yes every $$$ counts thanks agian

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As long as you don't mind the equipment/parts shipping from China. Knowing their reputation, do you really think that you are saving any money?

Support for the products you purchase is worth more then anything.

RBob.

uraijit

You say that as if all of this stuff doesn't come from china at one point or another. Did you keep a straight face the whole time you typed that?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Quite easy to keep a straight face as I typed that in. Didn't even have to try. As I know where Moates builds his stuff.

What are you? A shill for the Chinese?

RBob.

uraijit

Yup, you figured me out. I work for the chinese government, trying to convince others to "Buy Chinese"...

...or maybe I'm just a guy who doesn't have a dog in the fight (unlike yourself) and has experience with saving quite a bit of money, and still getting equal or better products.

I understand that you're trying to make money, and it's probably a real thorn in your side when somebody comes along and shows people where/how to get stuff cheaper from somebody else. But again, all of this stuff is coming from china at one point or another. So you ought to look for a better selling point than "China has a bad reputation". China makes just about everything you've ever bought in the past 15 years.

Cutting out the middle man just means it ships directly from China, rather than to a US reseller, and THEN the consumer.

I know you and Moates openly plug each other, and I've already stated that there's nothing wrong with Moates' stuff. There's just no good reason to pay double (or more) what something is actually worth, when you can get the same or better for less money.

I know plenty of Pro and semi-pro techies who use TOP programmers for HUNDREDS of different chip types, and have had no problems. It's a great product, that works great and does more, for less money. It comes with a 1-year manufacturer's warranty--though I know people who have been running them with daily use, for a couple of years (Way more than the average hobby user will ever use it).

Again, people are free to buy what they want. I'm just trying to let people know that they're not a slave to one option. Once people know that they have alternatives, they are empowered to make an informed decision. If you're really confident that your product(s) are that superior to these alternatives, you shouldn't have any reason to fear informed customers...

...or to go running to the administrators, trying to get me banned.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Oh my, thank for for the LMAOROTFL.

I am laughing so hard it is difficult to type, sorry for any typo's...

RBob.

P.S. please warn me as you begin typing, I don't won't to fall off the chair while laughing at your posts. They are truly entertaining...

uraijit

WARNING I AM BEGINNING TYPING, PLEASE TAKE CARE TO AVOID FALLING OFF YOUR CHAIR!

Glad you're entertained. I got a chuckle out of writing it, myself... They say it's bad form to laugh at your own material though, so I try and keep it to a minimum.

Cheers.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

While I have found certain items cheaper from other sources, I will usually order everything from one place, to save on shipping costs and convienence of getting everything at one time.

As said, the profit from items allows for development of new products. I'm getting one of those new products from Moates hopefully with in the next week, once Craig sends it out.

uraijit

But again, you're not saving on shipping.

Those prices I shared were INCLUDING SHIPPING.

Moates charges $5 per chip, Plus shipping.

Moates' burner is $85 Plus shipping.


The things that I linked to was a more versatile burner, for $44 INCLUDING SHIPPING.

And 13 Chips, for $32, INCLUDING SHIPPING.

Unless you're using the same math that the Federal Government uses for it's accounting practices, you're not saving any money on shipping by ordering from the same place, when you're paying double the shipped price, plus shipping.

It's your money...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

*sigh*

You're just not getting it....

The other places that I would, have and will again order from don't include shipping in thier prices, so yes, I do save on shipping, when I order from ONE place.

I also hate waiting for multiple shipments to come in, when I have a portion of the parts I need but not all, and then something happens to that one item that is delayed..... No I will pay extra for MY convienece. I save money and time in the long run. I've tried it both ways.

Also there's the border issue for me. I have sources here in Canada, where I don't have to worry about duties and delays from the border. I order certain stuff from the States, such as many of the products that moates sells, to be specific.

If I'm already ordering something, and remember I need an EEPROM, you know what, I'll order an EEPROM at the same time. It's a simple add to the same cart that I'm already using, it's convienent, and the "extra" that Craig might make off that will help develope new products, I guarantee that. If I need 3 dozen EEPROMs, well then I will likely order from one of my other sources. For most people they need 1 or two EEPROMs to do thier tuning though, so the extra $22 spent on the extra EEPROMs, to get the price down to sub $3 per EEPROM, becomes costing them more, because they won't use that many EEPROMs. So now that EEPROM or two just cost them 3 times what the Moates EEPROM would, if you look at it in what they actually use.

Like anything, if someone can retail items at a certain price, other people can also buy the same items elsewhere for less money, it's called wholesale. If people really want to buy in bulk, they can, if not like any product on the planet, a premium will be charged to be able to support the business supplying items to the end consumer, it's the way of retail.

FWIW, I don't own a Moates programmer, though I am thinking about getting one, BECAUSE it's automotive specific, and is smaller than my current programmer. The smaller programmer would be more convienient for me to have in my "tuning bag"m when I go to help out friends. I don't need to be able to program the hundreds of E/EPROM/PICs/etc that I can, I need to be able to program one EEPROM, the SST27SF512, so tell me again why I need all that extra capability? I have used the programmer I have for one other style EEPROM, that the Moates programmer definatly would not have, but only because I have a device that I could program my own updates for, or I could just buy the updated EEPROM.

There's nothing wrong with being able to buy other items or even the same items for less money, you do that. If you have a problem I guarantee the customer service will not be half as good as Moates. Also something I am willing to pay a little extra for.

I'm a cheapskate like you, but have found in my many years that getting the best price is not always the best value.

uraijit

I get it, I really do. Lots of people are willing to pay extra for convenience. I've learned to be patient, and if one box shows up a couple days later than the other, I can live with that.

My point was that whether or not shipping is taken to account combined with the item price, or after the fact, the dollar amount paid is all that matters, once it's said and done. If the product was only $15, and the shipping was $10, it still cost $25 to get it to your door, and that means the product cost $25. If you can find a product that costs $20, shipping included, even though the "product" was $5 more than the alternative, you still only paid $20, meaning you're $5 ahead.

As far as the chips go, as I said in a previous post, you can buy fewer chips, if you like, and still pay less money.

You can also just hang onto a few chips, and sell the others, and make back what it cost you to get the chips in the first place, and end up with 2-3 "Free" chips. Personally, I've heard of way too many people getting dead chips from moates, and then having to wait to get replacements. I like to have plenty on hand so I'm not stuck waiting another week, over a $5 (or $2.50 if you buy elsewhere) part.

There are many factors that can go into a choice of where/what you purchase. And at the end of the day, how people choose to spend their money is up to them. To those who see value in socializing the development of future products, that is to them, "Money Well Spent", and I say "More power to ya".

And like you pointed out, there can be added value to owning a programmer that can do other chips. Most people won't buy such a programmer with the intention of ever burning any other type of chip, but for that one time they might need it, they'll probably save a few bucks by having it. Or it can open a door to other hobbies involving the wonderful world of EEPROM burning.

That's why I almost ALWAYS buy tools. Even if it comes down to paying somebody else to do a job, with specialized tools, or paying the same amount of money to buy the tools, and do the work myself. Once the job is done, I have some very valuable tools that I can either resell for close to my investment cost (getting the job done for free), or I can keep the tool, and have it on hand for next time I need to do such a job, and I can loan the tools to/help friends do the job, saving them oodles of money or even making myself a modest amount of money.

I'm really not trying to **** in anybody's Cheerios here. I'm just trying to help people realize that there are more cost-effective options out there. There is PLENTY of information on this board about the Moates stuff. But there's virtually no information about alternatives. I just want people to know that they have alternatives, and make their purchases based on choices, rather than feeling that there are no options.

Again, Moates makes fine products, I'm not dissing him, or trying to ruin his business, or anything of the sort. But I've seen more than one post on here that flat out says that you only have 2 options when it comes to programmers: The $85 Moates Burners, or the $200 Pocket Programmer.

This is so far from the truth, but most people are inexperienced with burning EEPROMS, and take it as gospel, without ever knowing that they had a choice.

This board is about sharing information. That's all I'm really trying to do. I honestly couldn't care less what people decide to buy at the end of the day. I just want to help.

Cheers.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

When I see discussion of programmers I have never seen the "only two options" being the Moates Burn1/2 and the Pocket Programmer.

I usually see, and post, about the Burn2 and the Willems programmers, both do the same thing, some people will need more options and go with the Willems, some don't want to have the possible confusion and go with something simple, so they choose the Burn2. Both the Burn2 and the Willems programmer I use are the same price, maybe a slight difference after shipping, but I went with the Willems, simply because I know I will get into doing other hobbies later that can use that. If I was just an automotive enthusiast and not into electronics like I am, I would have gone with the Burn2 or probably Burn1 at the time.

people realize there are other options out there, but not many people want to search for those options, and a lot of times there isn't the feedback of what kind of service will be provided by these other options.

FWIW Moates isn't the only outfit that makes and sells automotive tuning equipment, but Moates has the best reputation, which is also worth the price.

Craig Moates

It's cool, brothers. No worries. There are pros and cons to everything.

We're all in this together in some way or another, and it's good to have options.

uraijit

That's all I've been trying to say.