anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I sold my Corvette in the spring. And prior to that I had sold my thirdgen, however I carried the Ostrich, '749, etc over to the Corvette.

Now that that is all gone, I'm starting fresh. I'm in the process of putting together a '79 Z28. I have a 412 cubic inch engine I built. I have an XR288HR camshaft, on 110lsa, 106 centerline. Fairly aggressive.


I'm a little split on heads.. I mean, I'm going with AFR 195 either way however I can either go with a 65cc head, mill it to 60cc and run close to 11:1 compression.

Or I can go with the 75CC, polish the chambers a hair which would be around 9.4:1, and run 10psi of boost on a Vortech.


So either way, I'm going to break the motor in with a edelbrock 750cfm carb because I have one lying around.


Getting back to the land of EFI. There has been a lot of improvements over technology. I must say, I'm pretty much no longer interested in logging and editing VE tables. I don't mind tuning AE and PE, but to spend hours cruising around and fixing VE tables just to have my BLM off by 10+ points 3 days later is just.. I'm done with that.

I'm thinking EBL maybe, or maybe an another aftermarket option. I want something that with autotune my idle and part throttle AFR from a wideband feedback. I want to dial in 15:1 idle, 15:1 light cruise, 13.8:1 low-load cruise, etc. What is the best option?


Another thing.. MAP sensors. For the better part of the last 10 years I've been on the MAP bandwagon, but as my cams got more aggressive the lack of resolution made tuning MAP combos almost became near impossible. I'm starting to think an LSx style (or Ford) MAF is the better method. Especially for a big cam motor and blower, where idle might be damn near 90kpa.

Lastly - always a battle was injector size vs idle quality. I've had issues, even in open loop, trying to get idle reasonable and lean without hitting minimum pulsewidth thresholds but still being able to provide enough fuel for upper RPM.


I've also looked at Fast's new EZ-EFI, which seems cool but since it's a 4bbl TBI it's hp limitted. On some recent tests i've seen, its actually given up as much as 20hp to a 750 cfm carb.. If I go with a blower I'd be putting down over 600 to the flywheel.

-- Joe

1tpi

All i can say is wow

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

????

???

iTrader: (5)

your asking what the easist to have the best running car with a huge cam, boost and huge injectors? I have no idea..... maybe put a new ls1 based ecm on it, drop it off somewhere for a tune and drive it like you stole it, by forgetting everything you know about tuning.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Actually, I was asking what guys are using now for autotune abilities. I think EBL can do it, I know FAST and some other high end stuff can.


There is more to life then spending all season dialing in VE tables. I'd love to have something that auto adjusts by wideband AFR..

-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

x2 or more. I'm sure all of us runnning big cubes,cams and blowers/turbos would like this.

Im just getting ready to get back in to tuning. with the $59 code for boost.
They have an autotune program. but not like I think your refering to.

You have to copy/paste logs and use autotune then save, burn etc.


I like th eidea of the new FAST EZ EFI but as you said I dont much like the 4bbl tb they use.
WOnder if you could use the same ecm,tc on a converted vic. jr and ls1 style tb.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've got all sorts of spreadsheets for pasting average BLMs on cells, but the thing is it just takes so long to get it all straightened out, and even then your chasing BLM for life. On a mild cam $8D/$58 is fine, but the crazier you get the more time you spending tuning vs driving..

the 4bbl TB is great for guys with a good intake that want a bolt and go, can't blame them. And the price is reasonable - figure about $1500 for everything minus a fuel pump. However, they advertise it for sub 550hp applications, and on some dyno tests like I said it gives up power up top for whatever reason. When you figure, a 4bbl throttle body with injectors retails around $900 from holley, you are getting a pretty good deal for this auto-tuning ECM. And it does allow you to taylor some things, idle speed, AFR ratios at various conditions, etc.. It just has a superior closed-loop mode where it won't just correct the BLM, it will save the correction and get closer the more you drive. The one thing it doesn't control however is spark advance I believe.



I've done a couple of single plane LSx throttle bodies. They work good on the street.. Not sure what I'm going to do next.. I can make any intake combo work, I'm more concerned with management at this point.

-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Ya Im not sure if the easy efi does spark. didnt look into it much. and Im just say get the ecm/etc without the 4bbl unit. and run it with a Vic.jr / ls1 style setup.

My 383 lt1 is deff. a MILD cam. 230/236 @ .050 .510/.512
Ported stock heads (le3 equivalents) , and a 7.65 crank and 3.5 SC pulley (looking to swap to a 3inch SC pulley) on a novi 2000

So hopefully Im not chasin tail trying to tune $59


If it wasnt so dang much to swap the lt1 over to the 411 pcm Id prob. give it a go. Seems like alot more support out there for it.

Ive already converted the lt1 for distrib. and no opti. but the crank trigger **** is pricey fo rthe lt1 vs the gen1 stuff.

anyways back to your question.

What are you building this time? Why not just go with the 411 setup ?

???

iTrader: (5)

don't get me wrong, I have nothing but bad luck tuning 8D myself. the iat crap gives me fits... for that I've tuned my n/a car using 59. the autotune isn't real time but it is very easy to use and is based off wideband and the target a/f table. then as the tune drifts I just work the simple air temp table to bring it back in.


I do like the idea of the ebl thou, and I have said a few times if I had it all to do over, I'd just prob order it. good luck with whatever you pick. I don't think anything is really 100% easy to get a great tune.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Can it do 8 injectors in batch ? I'm feeling, it probably fires bank to bank every other DRP.

That on 112 or 114 lsa ?

I guess it depends on where your idle is. If I had a combo that idled around 60kpa, cruised in the 40s-50s, etc there was still a lot of resolution to play with. Still, if the combo makes big power your fighting injector duty cycle vs min pulsewidth. My S-trim 355 combo worked FLAWLESSLY, made around 560 hp, idled great, etc. However a 358 I built with a bigger blower, slightly larger cam I had some issues.



411 PCM ? Crank triggers are pricey.. A few years back I thought about that with coil on plug, but came to the conclusion it was just a lot of money for nothing more than bragging rights.

Not sure. I like the idea of building another blower combo, but at the same time I think I can peak around 550-580hp naturally aspirated with the AFR heads and the right intake. Short block is done, 4.185" bore, 3.75" stroke, and 16.2cc reverse domes. If I run a 75cc head I'll be at 9.4:1 compression, if I run a 60cc head it would be 10.9:1.. I don't have a blower lying around, but if I went the 9.4:1 route I'd consider a 10psi S-trim, spun in the efficient range. Should produce 650hp I'd think.. Or no?

Cam is an XR288HR. It's actually a damn good naturally aspirated cam, however I know of at least two guys running the same cam on a big inch (406) blower motor putting down over 600hp and very happy, so even though it's 110lsa it has enough bite to get the car moving off boost, and has tolerable bleed off under boost.



The other issue is, it's a cable-driven car with no VSS out from the dash, so if I went with an OE type setup I'd have no VSS logic. I'm running a TH350 for now, so I need no TCC stuff.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I like the EBL idea as well. Honestly, for a naturally aspirated car with a performer RPM or victor jr intake, I'd consider buying a 4bbl, 4 injector, 4150 throttle body and running EBL. Should perform almost identical WOT to a carb, yet would give control over the entire fuel curve and advance curve.


For a supercharged application however, I'm not sure how well that would work. I guess if the fuel pressure was 1:1 with manifold reference it would be fine.


-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Im not sure if it will do 8injectors. Like I said I havent looked into it that much. Just here and there.

Correctin on my cam its.
Intake: 224˚/ 236˚ .050”
Lift:
Intake: .502” Exhaust: .510”
on a 112˚

Deff. not he ideal cam for the setup. but I got it practically free and it was new. So I stabbed it in there. idel, etc.. NO IDEA. I havent even began to tune it yet. I still need to get off my *** and by a 3 bar map for $59 and finish the tube for the SC to TB.

I have a generic 383 tune I found online right now. Changed it to use my 50lb injectors and thats it. Thats another thing , I need to upgrade, I dono if the 50ls are gonna be big enough.



If I was you id toss on some afr and keep it to 9.x:1 and toss on a S trim if you find a deal on one. Like you said You dont have one layin around anymore.

have you looked into mega squirt? Again Ive been outa the game for 5years or so looking at tuning stuff. So Im kinda outa the loop on hands on. Im jumping back in the game based off what others are having good dealings with. So far seems quite a few are liking the $59 and gettinng good results with.

Like you said you want to drive it more then tune it. Im at the same point with building this car. Its not a Track Only car. and Its not a DD. So Im thinking if I can actually find a dyno and someone who is willing to tune the $59 on the dyno for me It might just come down to that to dial it in. Then if I need to make any little changes here and there I can go from there.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I ran an SLP-51010 camshaft in the 355 I was talking about earlier that made 560+ hp with an S-trim, and crappy iron sportsman II heads.. The cam specs were 224/230, .502/.510 on 112*.. That was honestly the best (and cheapest) combo I have ever owned.. I'm hoping the 412/AFR head combo I'm building spanks it hard, but honestly man I loved that motor.


Dunno.. I ran 36# on the 355.. When I had the 358, I was using ford 42# (which are probably bigger) and couldn't get a happy middleroad between too rich ideal and lean WOT. This was on a '749 with $58

That is what I'm thinking. It would probably still make 450hp with 9.4:1 compression.. I could probably polish the chambers too, take out maybe 3cc and lower the compression a hair more, put an s-trim on down the road.

Megasquirt looks nice. Kind of expensive and not a lot of support on here. If I was going to go with something that was small hobby based, I'd go with EBL because guys on here use it, including the guy who owns it who has been volunteering on the forum for a decade. I knew a kid who was running megasquirt on his Vette, but have not spoken to him in a few years. I think he got married and the car doesn't get touched anymore.


Dialing in WOT/PE stuff is fine.. It's the part throttle stuff that drives me bonkers.. You get it close, then you go out for a cruise and you get a surge or a buck at some stupid MAP vs RPM that you just hadn't touched upon or maybe the moon is at the right angle or something, or your cam overlap wiped out the narrowband so the ECM is being stupid or or or ..

When I was learning about tuning it was fun.. Now it's just an annoyance.

-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

This is a Comp cam on the 3315 and 3316 s from CompCams Xtreme Energy line. Was on the shelf at summit as a custom grind that someone didnt want. I think whatever #'s this 383 puts out with 12psi I'll be happy with.

Injectors are actually ford 42's that silverback converted to 50's. Dono what or how thats just what Im told.

I only lokoed at the MS2 stuff for moments like you said kinda pricey and I dont think theres much need to swap over since I can run my 7730 with $59 or a 7749 also.

I think no matter what you decide to do will turn out good. as said above I dont think ANY of the efi stuff is to the point its gonna be 100%.

It would deff. be nice is someone came out with something that would take a good wb02 , individual egt sensors and auto tune for you once you have a base tune setup. etc..

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Not a problem, Painless and a few other sources sell VSS sensors that connact to the tranny, that also have a pass through for the cable. Available in "TBI" and "TPI" PMM, which would be 2000 and 4000 PPM outputs.

A friend of mine has a 409 engine (365 actual cubes), with a custom MPFI intake, that we are using a painless VSS on, connected to a '7730 using S_AUJP, runs quite well, considering it is idleing around 65 KPA IIRC, and gets into the upper 40s at cruise. Running full time open loop on it.

My grandfather (and I) have a '71 Chev pick, that has a late model Vortec 355 in it, that I am using an '83 Corvette Cross-Fire intake on, and currently has a TH350 behind it that will be using the Painless VSS, connected to a '7427 PCM, that will eventually control a 4L60E, once we swap it in.

On my Jimmy, I made a VSS, from a FWD trans VSS, that had both the cable and elecyronic VSS output, combined it with speedo ratio adaptor that comes stock on a lot of S-series, and ran that for a few years. This was with a '7730 ECM, running $8F

On my Datsun, I modified a later model speedo ('77 280Z to be exact), to use an S-10 optical VSS, that originally would have been attached to the back of the speedo in the '84ish (with cruise) to '91 IIRC) S-series, with analog speedos. I am using a '7749 with $59 in this application.

So there are lots of options to getting a VSS signal to work.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Mmmm, this is interesting know. Am I assuming this means a 92 TBI speedo VSS is Different then a 92 TPI speedo vss?

The speedo in my vert doesnt work. might be a nuber of reason. I havent looked into it yet. Its a rebuilt 87 700r4 that I put an electric vss sending unit in. and It doesnt work. Might be I got a bad tranny sensor, I dono. Thats what Im gonna look into next. Need to pull the car outa the garage with tuner pro data logging and see if Im getting signal from the tranny and go from there.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yes, but it doesn't matter. The '730 has inputs for both. If you were trying to use a 4k ppm on a 2k only ECM, might be in trouble.. Most of the TBI and early TPI cars had the 4-out buffer box.. Kind of silly, but all the VSS were 4k ppm or 2k ppm, 2k being "earlier".. The buffer box converted it to 4k PPM signal for the dash, and 2k out for the ECM I think.. The '730 ECM can take a 2k or 4k input, and has a 2k output and 4k output.


This is pretty much the MPFI combo I would use.

Holley Singleplane 9901-101-1 $330.00
Holley Fuel rail + FPR kit 9900-172 $270.00
Holley 4bbl throttle body 9900-171 $456.00
Injectors 42# $300.00
Painless VSS Adapter 60115 $130.00
Fuel Hoses $150.00

Total $1,636.00

Expensive. Then figure $465 for an EBL, or $whatever$ the Vortec/MAF PCM is..

-- Joe

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Mmmmmm, well maybe I got a junk vss then. will pull car out tomorrow or later and see if its putting any signal out.

Im gonna guess those are all new prices. Im sure you can find deals on stuff on here. racing junk or everywhere else people are dumping projects they don't want to finish.

???

iTrader: (5)

there is a port mod to run ebl with tpi or whatever style port intake.
'
but i'm pretty sure you'd be happy with a 3bar and 59. they run 60 plus lb injectors on their sy/ty's and orr89rocz is running 80lb hr on his turbo 401. took a bit, but once he turned on the closed throttle ve table, it sounded like he got it pretty good. those are all high Z injectors, so if you did lowz and the peak hold mod, i'd think it would control them even better.

biggest i've run is 42s on 59, it wasn't a huge cam, but it didn't have any trouble with idle. i figured 42s were on the small side these days. with everyone seeming to run atleast 60s

Dominic Sorresso

anastheses,

EBL has the flexibility you're looking for.
Auto-tune via either WB or BLM. Just run the real time tune also as you drive around.
Supports boost. Also supports VAFPR so you can increase FP via manifold vacuum.
Awesome piece of work by RBob. Flash as well.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Sounds reasonable.. I already have a 747 ecm, and a harness out of a truck that I had converted to EFI (and later parted out).. So that part is covered. Would just need to send Rob the ECM for mods.

Still not sure about what EFI system.. Both 4bbl TBI and pro-fo (the miniram type manifold) look appealing.

I can't remember if my '79 Z has a return line to the tank, if not that might be fun...

Found this VSS adapter (first one for $75)

http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/Spe...eedometer.html

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's the same as the Painless piece, maybe even the same piece.

Same as what was being used on my friends truck with the '7747, until we swapped to a '7730, and what I'll be using in my Grandfather's truck.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hey man,

I checked the painless one out on summit and they wanted $130 ??

Did you go from TBI with the '747 to MPFI with the '730, or were you doing some type of hack with the '730 to run TBI ??


I'm leaning towards EBL because I like the fact that that it takes a wideband input, it will autotune the VE, and only requires one cable (I think) to talk to the ECM. Waiting for Rbob to get back to me on some questions I had.



-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I was attempting to run MPFI from the '7747, with limited success, while yes it ran it, it didn't do it well. I think I may have discovered why, after learning more about the ECM, but the '7730 was a much better way to for the application anyway.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Now did you simply wire it up for MPFI, or did you use EBL with the port mod?

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

No I didn't use the EBL....

I think my biggest problem was incorrect CALPAK, but I didn't really have a way to verify that or even think about that at the time.
Using a '7730 with S_AUJP was the best way to go at the time. I will be working on getting 1 BAR $59 going again this winter though.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe, not too familiar w/EBL yet, but I just started breaking in my 355 w/MS-II. Like your cam, mine has a very fast ramp rate, and this actually helps the MAP sensor because of the less total overlap, giving a somewhat fairly steadier vacuum reading. Haven't gotten the Camaro on the road yet, but I'm looking forward in seeing the autotune characteristics at work w/the Megasquirt. Here's a quick overview from their online manual....;

Auto-tune is an algorithm built into recent releases of MegaTune that automatically tunes your VE table based on EGO feedback. It is similar to MSTweak3000, but operates in real-time, without a datalog, and on any variant of code and processor, including MegaSquirt-II™ (or MicroSquirt®), that uses MegaTune....

With a narrow band sensor, you can use auto-tune with any algorithm and any sensor to tune the low-power part of the table, it will get you to stoich (or AFR targets) quite nicely, which will give you a starting point from which to extrapolate the high-power part.

You don't need a dynomometer to get the high output regions of the VE table done, but you definitely should NOT use auto-tune with a narrow band sensor for that part of the table, you'll end up with broken or melted pistons. In order to use auto-tune for WOT tuning, you must be running a wide band lambda system (sensor and controller), with appropriate AFR targets in the AFR table. If one of these requirements is missing, then you must rely on seat-of-the-pants and experience.

To start with, set the EGO step size (in MegaTune) to 1%, and set the authority down to ~10%, so that auto-tune doesn't do unstable jumps. The default auto-tune gain is 50%, so if you could jump a VE entry by as much as 5% in a single operation with the above numbers.

The EGO control algorithms all turn off correction (i.e., set the correction factor to 100%) whenever AE, decel, warmup or any number of other enrichment types come active. The 100% EGO value in turn has the effect of turning off the auto-tune.

The auto-tune step is determined by the current EGO correction (which is limited by the EGO controller authority), and the proportional gain, so only those two values really play a role in computing how big the auto-tune step will be. So, things proceed like this...:

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/tune.htm

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

This is something I would deff. Interested in. $59 with 2bar possable?. I deff. dont need a 3bar that it requires.

Dominic Sorresso

Ebl can also be configured to run MPFI as well as TBI. If you have a 7747, RBob or yourself can install the EBL board. It comes with its own diag software or you can just as easily use a scantool through ALDL. I was able to use EASE when I had mine. WB can be read in as part of overall scan. The EBL scan also provides parameters that I previously had to deduce from other ALDL parameters. Gives a direct reading of things like TPS/MAP delta for AE tuning as an example. PW is there of course along with Injector Duty Cycle.
I could do a scan and have EBL calc new VE tables and be back on the road with new cal in 5-10 mnutes. Built for tuners by the premier tuner himself, RBob.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

No, there is and will never be 2 BAR $59 support. The only reason there may ever be 1 BAR support is because I'm willing to go through the XDFs and change what I find, which I think I pretty much have done at this point, I just haven't been able to test it on an actual car, the test bench shows some good results.
Dig is syaing there there are some code changes needed, that I'll have to learn about.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

From time to time I have reviewed the megasquirt. I do like the AFR table rather than VE table. I don't like the need for an external ESC controller for knock, and I kind of don't like that I have to buy their harness and splice the connectors. I'll have to review again, it's been a while. Looks to be about $500 with the harness?

The fact that it has a built in MAP sensor is somewhat helpful, as that offsets the cost.

MS has no input or interest on VSS huh??

Thanks!

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm waiting to hear back from RBob regarding some EBL stuff.

Essentially when you had your C4, you had 4 TBI injectors right? (crossfire). I remember reading an article in a mag a few years back on your car.

I don't know why I have 4bbl TBI in my head lately, I just think there is a lot of good engine combos out there with certain manifolds + carbs, and I can't help but wonder how well replacing a typical 4150 carb with a 4bbl TBI would work. I've used the holley 'commander' 9901 EFI manifolds a few times, and it works well. I think the carbed 'street dominator' I converted some years ago worked much much better. I'm tempted on the pro-flo, but at the same time I'm weary that if I boost the engine I'll be back to some cyls lean, others rich.

With a 4bbl TBI, it seems I can dial the motor in and track test it with the carb, then bolt the TBI to it, and see if it produces the same ETs. (while giving me 100% control over timing, idle, cruise, etc.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I PM'd back a few minutes ago. TGO doesn't appear to be emailing notifications.

Which intake were you using that was causing the air distribution problems?

RBob.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The Crossfire is only 2 injectors. It uses two single bbl/single injector throttle bodies. This is in stock form anyway. I've converted a Crossfire intake recently to work with Vortec heads to be used in my Grandfather's '71 Pick-up.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Got that, thanks, reviewing.

I've had air distribution problems with a modified SLP runner TPI setup, and STUPID air distribution problems on the miniram with the blower. You can yank the plugs and some fouled, some clean.

This is obviously why the LT1 applications (SFI anyway) have a cylinder injector pw trim table..

I've had most success with the street dominator converted to port EFI. The holley commander worked well, but didn't seem as responsive. Could be a number of reasons, I tried it once with a 4bbl throttle body and that was kinda dead down low, and again with an elbow and a LSx throttle body. Better, but still not quite as nice as the first intake I built was. I'm guessing the elbow disrupts are distribution.. On boost it's was nice.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

.... they offer a two wire expansion board (GPIO), w/up to 25 additional inputs and outputs for Megasquirt-II. I'm planning on eventually going this route, as right now I'm just running a toggle switch to control torque converter lockup.

http://www.diyautotune.com/megamanua...ift/4L60e.html

http://www.diyautotune.com/megamanual/gFAQ/index.htm

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The reason I asked is because, for example, manual trans guys using the OEM code can take advantage of the throttle follower routines, which are useful, plus fan disable MPH thresholds.

I'll check it out.

-- Joe

meyer30

iTrader: (2)

You might want to look into Holley's new Dominator, HP, and Avenger ecus.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That stuff has been catching my eye lately. I like a lot of the new bolt-on 4150 'systems' with 4+ injector pods, etc.

-- Joe