MOANOTLESS

Well to begin with I've been posting in the DFI/ECM section but have been encouraged to move over to here to get in the right spot so to speak.

I'm absolutely new to all this high fangled stuff being and OLD 60's 70's carb guy but what the heck, gotta try right? Sooo here we go!

The motor I put together is a 383 stroker with an Eagle rotating assembly, X-RAM manifold, and AFR 195 heads.
Cam is a Comp Cams 268fxi camshaft using 1.6 rockers.
I'm using stock exhaust manifolds with A.I.R. ports welded shut and a true dual exhaust system with no catalytic converter but does have the oxygen sensor provision. Note that I'm running a heated AC DELCO AFS-74 NB O2 sensor
I'm using a Dynamic EFI EBL FLASH computer from RBOB and using tuner pro as my program.
The trans is the 700r4 with a shift kit and 1900 rpm stall converter.
TBI's have been bored to 2" and currently running matched 80lb injectors at 22lbs pressure which i think i will increase to 24lbs as i have a very small window of injector DC's over 90%. in the 2400 to 3600 RPM RANGE. I may decrease the aePW fueling as well but want to see what increased pressure will do first.

Car has no IAT, EGR,AIR, OR CAT CON.
Asnych PW is off.
BPC IS SET AT 90
Started w/ the stock 85 Camaro F bin on bob's disc and have been modifying from there.
Flags for IAT 23/25 have been turned off.
Burst knock is off.
Highway mod SA is off for now.
Baro-max rpm for read is st at 0 for now
timing is set to 6 degrees BTDC


At present I've been working with Rbob, and Ronny on the other board. to get the car going.At present it runs fine except for it is extremely rich at idle, have a pulsation from idle to around 3000rpm of 200 to 300 rpm. Set the PRP- GAIN AT IDLE TO 0 and that helped allot but did not take care of all of it. Again the s PW are high for very short periods of time but i can tell it by the olde butt dyno.

Car pull hard thru the range and runs pretty darn well except as noted above. Been doing VE learns but so far haven't got to where i need to go with the BLM's and INT's. I blame that on er... "OPERATOR ERROR" as i have not been real good about doing this step by step.

Pulled a plug this morning and it looks like it may have been running a tad lean but as few miles as iI've put on this fresh motor and the fact it's not been tuned in yet I'n not sure that's a major issue.

Any hep or in site would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

MOANOTLESS

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: and currently running matched 80lb injectors at 22lbs pressure which i think i will increase to 24lbs

It may be your rich idle is due to the ECU not being able to pull the sPW down low enough. I idle open loop at 11 lbs FP(WOT is 22 w/ VAFPR) and I see sPW around 1.9.
with A/F showing 12.5.

Have you tried idle OL? It may help the wandering/pulsing RPM at idle. You say "extremely" rich at idle. you may need to consider VAFPR.

Quote: Set the PRP- GAIN AT IDLE TO 0

Did RBob suggest that? I reduced mine but I did not zero them.

Also you may want to set all the cells around idle to same SA. IOW my idle speed is 800 at 38 MAP. So I set 800 rpm/40 map to 24d SA and same at low /higher rpm and higher lower map. so when it wanders the SA it sees is the same. Also idle SA compensation that I may have zeroed. When I had an idssue as yours I also reduced the stall RPM to about half.

I idle on throttle stop screw with commanded idle set under 800 rpms.

If you try any of above do just one a time.

MOANOTLESS

sPW just sitting at an idle is 1.1ms so that looks good to a lay person.. LOL!!! Bob thinks the rich idle it may straighten up after more ve learns but i keep changing things trying to gt the searching RPM issue squared away so i haven't got the learn issue squared away. biggest problem is more than likely the guy doing it...




the rich idle is at startup till it reaches closed loop. once there it's fine

I set the SA to use the tables but liked the looks of using the set amount of 20 so i rechecked the flag. But i will recheck the flag and change the SA in the idler cells to 20 and see how that works

bob said to reduce them ( it was set at 5) so i just zeroed them. i played with the settings just before i wrote this response and quite frankly didn't see allot of diff right now.

Withe engine temp at 188 and idling around 825 rpm the kpa runs around 50, fuel is 16-19 Gms/sec, sPW is 1.1ms int is 120 to 128, and the BLM is 124 to 128, and the IAC counts are zip, all in closed loop. I'm not sure how steady the int and BLM values have to be after all the learns are done so some guidance there would be appreciated.

I'll try some of your suggestions and let ya know.

MOANOTLESS

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

One more thought on OL idle..... I also set the surrounding cells at 800rpm/40MAP at same VE fueling. so again if the idle rmp/map wanders it sees same fuel and same SA.

If you idle CL then it wont matter as it will be stoich regardless.

another point. I set my rich/median/lean swings for 02 sensor 10% higher for enrichment > than stoich. I also set my commanded stoich A/F at 14.1/1. I am not looking for eminshions or fuel economy. I just feel engine would like a little enrichment.

MOANOTLESS

Hi all.

Well I've been doing allot more reading and a ton of VE learns. the motor now has about 500 miles on it so it's just starting to loosen up a tad if u will.
I ran into a problem with a low voltage to my cruise control dump valve which in turn allowed the motor to suck air so i had to start the VE learn process over. er...

One thing I'm not sure on with VE learns is how consistent the INT AND BLM numbers should run at 128. Unless i'm on a flat surface road they seem to vary from 114 to 134 depending if i'm accelerating or deceleration. I'm not getting a DFCO light and the Baro for mph is set to 255 and the MAP transient min mph was set to 255 so them should rule them out. If i'm on a level road they stay at 128 +/_ 2 to 3 I'd say. Another thing is after doing a learn what change numbers are acceptable to call the tables good? I assume one could do learns to eternity because of different driving conditions and host of other variables they will always change. True? false?

I believe i got my spark tables set using the TBI F BIN on Bob's disc and multiplied them by 110 percent then smoothed them at .9. If a one was to take a some spark in specific ares of the chart are there any guidelines on how much jump between numbers there should be? I'd like to change a few areas to try and keep my SA to 34 max but don't want to screw up what actually seems to be working very well.

I've got the PRP GAIN DURATION AT IDLE still set to zero and have zeroed the PRP GAIN MULTIPLIER VRS AIR FLOW as well. This has all but eliminated my searching rpm at idle to about 3000 rpm but i dare say that may not be the correct way to solve that problem.thoughts EBL people?

the car still runs rich at idle to warm up but after i changed the OPEN LOOP MULTIPLIER VRS CTS from 20c which i set at 0 to + 11.72 at 80C it seems pretty good. again probably not the right way but a work around for now.

All in all the car runs pretty well and pulls hard to 6000RPM. I have a very limited area ( usually about 3 or 4 lines in the analysis page) where my DC is 90 to 100 but u sure can't feel it in the butt dyno. The rest are 85 or well below.

MOANOTLESS

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: Unless i'm on a flat surface road they seem to vary from 114 to 134 depending if i'm accelerating or deceleration.

Flat surface tuning is OK. BUT getting reads on a steady pull up a large incline is good too. It gets a read at higher MAP. Steady throttle always. Lock the gear and do all 4.

As you stated disable CCP, hyway mode , DFC0. I think EBL stops learn when EGR cycles. BLMs will range in ealy dtatalogs but that should improve. Dont expect 128 across the board. 124-132 is more likely. Remember environmental tems will have effect as well.

Yea a lot of Learns. No big deal. I will assume GM does a lot of learns when they tune a new product. Right?

I borrowed my SA tables from another member but they are very close to stock FBody. I recently pulled some spark 2400-3200 where I saw KC and it did not reappear. Seems my KC were only under load with a brisk accelleration never above 4000 rpms. good thing.

Not sure is one should zero those PRP gain tables. reduce yes if called for.

OL Multiplier? I dont think I moved it. I am actually lean < 160F but that may be fuel drop out on cool manifold. Car runs OK <160F.

MOANOTLESS

Thanks! I'm beginning to think you and R bob are the only 2 other people on this board so your help is greatly appreciated.

I actually have a specific route where i climb a 5% grade for a 3/8's of a miles or so that i was checking SA on. The BLMS AND INT do not stay within +/-_ 5 so i thought maybe that was normally. I'll keep playing with it and see what happens. Note the car has a 700r4 so I can't stay in any gear but low.

As far as reducing the gains to 0 I wasn't sure what else to try. If i take them off zip the surge comes back which means i would have to try something different. Again i thought maybe one of the other tunning guru's would chime in and give me some ideas on what else i could do. Maye I'll post a log and see if anyone has thoughts on that.

MOANOTLESS

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: The BLMS AND INT do not stay within +/-_ 5 so i thought maybe that was normally.

I think you will find some days where overall the are globally <128 or >128. This morning I saw a trend >128 as air temps were cool and car was not warm under hood. as the commute progressed I saw the BLMS drop as underhood temps rose. I am beginning to think I should not do a VE Learn until I have driven 10 minutes. I do have IAT sensor.

I always believed the learns done possibly do not make a complete adjustment so as not to overshoot the correction. I have experience only with winALDL and now VE Learn. maybe Rbob will comment on this.

MOANOTLESS

Thanks Ron.

You've been a great help!!

I as well will not do VE learns till the engine is warmed all the way up. maybe that has been part of my problem as well. No IAT but my guess is the engine actual engine VE is much better warmed up vrs cold start.

Back to the surge. I was playing with that today and adjusted some of the PRP gain settings to see what they did. Most are now set to what the F-1001 bin is on RBOB'S disc and it has settled down. One thing i noted after I let the engine get good an hot( 220 degrees) I shut if off for a few minutes then restarted. The O2 hadn't warmed up enough to go into to closed loop and until it did i had ZERO RPM SEARCHING. The minute it went into closed loop it started again. Now if all my gain settings in TP are the same in either closed loop or open loop then it would appear it is something else going on with closed loop settings causing this. Correct?


MOANOTLESS

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Note that the proportional gains are only active in closed loop.

RBob.

MOANOTLESS

Thanks Bob!!.

I'll keep playing with them then and see what i can figure out.

MOANOTLESS

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Rons prior post. I idle on throttle stop screw with commanded idle set under 800 rpms.

This may be helpfull as it takes the IAC out of picture unless it goes stall saver mode and as about to die(<500rpms). With throttle resting on TSS and no IAC interference and SA unchanging and fuel consistent at x msec in log idle should be stable. what else is there to interfere?

MOANOTLESS

IAC is running at 0 to 2 steps at idle. After reading thru a ton of posts I'm going to geta a VRFPR and wide band O2 and then tune some more. Everything seems to me to indicate running open loop is best but it takes a wide band to do that. Maybe not but I've got as far as i can this way.

MOANOTLESS