L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
09-21-2008, 12:28 PM
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L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Posting this to see if anyone else like me out there is researching DYI today or out there for support.
After a long and challenging journey, I stand today with a nice little combination ready to fire for the first time. After several set backs and trials of patience, (Including the last having to swap out fuel pumps when a pinched off return line generated less that 15PSI) I sit with the 90 bird EBL'd, BBC TBI'd 350 6-spd (Although the t-56 is on the floor and the rear end is still dropped just in case a fuel pump issue occurs) ready to fire up for the first time.\
From what I have read so far, Rbob says he prefers to start up from a fresh bin. That is unless you see an ebl bin very very close to what you have. I see this bin
EBL_F_1001.BIN: 5.4l SBC '113 Hds, Isky 280 HL, headers, stick,
80 #/hr @ 22 psi, VRFPR, OL cruise, CL idle
but I got more cubes, more cam and 91lb injectors at 20 psi and no VRFPR. I think there should be some things I can look at to compare after a couple VE learns occur. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.
Although I am so anxious to go driving, I'm still trying to take the time to do it write.
I am thinking that I can look up the SA tables and ve to kind of get an idea about what is going on.
After a long and challenging journey, I stand today with a nice little combination ready to fire for the first time. After several set backs and trials of patience, (Including the last having to swap out fuel pumps when a pinched off return line generated less that 15PSI) I sit with the 90 bird EBL'd, BBC TBI'd 350 6-spd (Although the t-56 is on the floor and the rear end is still dropped just in case a fuel pump issue occurs) ready to fire up for the first time.\
From what I have read so far, Rbob says he prefers to start up from a fresh bin. That is unless you see an ebl bin very very close to what you have. I see this bin
EBL_F_1001.BIN: 5.4l SBC '113 Hds, Isky 280 HL, headers, stick,
80 #/hr @ 22 psi, VRFPR, OL cruise, CL idle
but I got more cubes, more cam and 91lb injectors at 20 psi and no VRFPR. I think there should be some things I can look at to compare after a couple VE learns occur. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.
Although I am so anxious to go driving, I'm still trying to take the time to do it write.
I am thinking that I can look up the SA tables and ve to kind of get an idea about what is going on.
Last edited by graebz28; 09-21-2008 at 12:32 PM.
09-21-2008, 12:36 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Todays plan.
I had to get one ARP head bolt that the garage gremlins got from me. Install that, set all the nec parameters in the stock bin file.... trans, BPC vs VAC, egr and ccp.....
got the base timing at 6. I do not have my WB connected yet, firing up for initial break and when all is good, drive train in and off to exhaust shop to weld in cat and wb bung.
I am going through each line of the bin right now to get up to speed. Hopefully common sense and studying will get me in the right direction.
Good list of parameters to set in the EBL.Information file. Going through those now.
I had to get one ARP head bolt that the garage gremlins got from me. Install that, set all the nec parameters in the stock bin file.... trans, BPC vs VAC, egr and ccp.....
got the base timing at 6. I do not have my WB connected yet, firing up for initial break and when all is good, drive train in and off to exhaust shop to weld in cat and wb bung.
I am going through each line of the bin right now to get up to speed. Hopefully common sense and studying will get me in the right direction.
Good list of parameters to set in the EBL.Information file. Going through those now.
Last edited by graebz28; 09-21-2008 at 12:57 PM.
09-21-2008, 09:04 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Did a pre start! Man I was nervous to turn the key but I did with fire extinguisher in hand. Getting to late to do much more, but I need to slap in the rad and fill it and tighten up some accessories. I did not want to do too much before I was sure that I did not have a major leak or issue. Sounds pretty good. Just ran it for a minute to start the break in procedure.
Last edited by graebz28; 09-22-2008 at 01:22 AM.
09-22-2008, 12:31 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Good luck. I just dropped my tbi/vortec/hotcam 350 in about 3 weeks ago. I still have quite a bit of tuning to do, but it is definitely an improvement over the old 305. Funny story on mine...I'm using a Crusader marine intake manifold that I bought off of a guy locally. As I was filling the engine radiator and engine up with water, it just kept drinking and drinking. My dad had put some in the night before, but I didn't know how much, so I put about another gallon in it. About a half hour before we were going to be ready to fire it up, we had to pull the t.b. to put in a vacuum fitting. When we cracked the throttle blades, we found water sitting in the intake! That was a surprise! At first we thought that it must have been leaking past the gasket around the water ports in the heads, but when we pulled the intake back off, there wasn't any water pooled in the lifter valley, only in the runners. So we bench tested the intake to see if there was a leak inside of it, and sure enough, water was leaking from the coolant passageways to the intake runners somewhere inside the manifold. Luckily, the guy I bought it off of had another one, and we swapped him for it. The second one tested out alright and what was going to take a couple hours to get it running ended up taking about 6 extra hours after I cleaned all of the water out of the engine, drained the oil (with a bunch of water in it), pulled the plugs, cranked it over by hand then with the starter, and buttoned it all back together. I was able to get it fired up at about 1 am that morning, tuned until 3, and drove it two hours back to college the next day...nothing like working up to the last minute!
Hopefully yours goes more smoothly than mine did.
Hopefully yours goes more smoothly than mine did.
Last edited by rhit_rs; 09-22-2008 at 12:31 AM. Reason: grammar fix
09-22-2008, 01:19 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
I just fired mine up around 12:30. Got it running for a little bit, then it would not restart. Can smell fuel. Pulled a plug and it smelt pretty fouled. I think that my idle screw may need to increase. The car ran really low rpm.
All I did besides adjust the necessary parameters was use Ronnies SA table since he is pretty close to my build.
Can anyone look at my logs and make any sense?
I set my fuel psi at 20 and BLM at 74 according to the excel spreadsheet.
Thanks in advance for the help. I need some sleep.
All I did besides adjust the necessary parameters was use Ronnies SA table since he is pretty close to my build.
Can anyone look at my logs and make any sense?
I set my fuel psi at 20 and BLM at 74 according to the excel spreadsheet.
Thanks in advance for the help. I need some sleep.
Last edited by graebz28; 09-22-2008 at 01:25 AM.
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09-22-2008, 08:30 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Log does show that the IAC was max'd open. The low idle RPM can be caused by several items. The base timing may be off, or it may be running rich or lean. Did the plugs have any soot on them? That would be a sign that the engine is running rich.
I wouldn't start it again until you can leave it run for a while. Put a timing light on it and check that the spark timing is close. Should be about 20 - 22 deg BTDC with the EST/PYPASS connector closed. Once the engine is warmed up you can set the actual base timing with the connector open.
Once up to temp the ECM should go closed loop. Start a VE Learn and do things like hold the RPM a little high, then at idle. Check the BLM, see what it is doing. Get a feel for the current tune.
Roll it up and down the driveway (under it's own power), with the VE Learn running. Then flash the new BIN into the ECM. COntinue until you can drive it on the street. Continue with VE Learns. It will get better with each learn. Can then get into some short WOT bursts and check for knock and too rich or lean.
RBob.
I wouldn't start it again until you can leave it run for a while. Put a timing light on it and check that the spark timing is close. Should be about 20 - 22 deg BTDC with the EST/PYPASS connector closed. Once the engine is warmed up you can set the actual base timing with the connector open.
Once up to temp the ECM should go closed loop. Start a VE Learn and do things like hold the RPM a little high, then at idle. Check the BLM, see what it is doing. Get a feel for the current tune.
Roll it up and down the driveway (under it's own power), with the VE Learn running. Then flash the new BIN into the ECM. COntinue until you can drive it on the street. Continue with VE Learns. It will get better with each learn. Can then get into some short WOT bursts and check for knock and too rich or lean.
RBob.
09-22-2008, 10:21 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Thanks RBob!
I got all the accessories hooked up now and it's ready to go. I did not get a chance to check the timing so I will do that next. The volts were jumping but that was due to the low rpms I think.
My fan stayed constantly running. Do I need to re-pin something on the ECM for it to work correctly?
Should I bump up the idle screw. The TBI is new, so I don;t have a baseline yet.
I got all the accessories hooked up now and it's ready to go. I did not get a chance to check the timing so I will do that next. The volts were jumping but that was due to the low rpms I think.
My fan stayed constantly running. Do I need to re-pin something on the ECM for it to work correctly?
Should I bump up the idle screw. The TBI is new, so I don;t have a baseline yet.
Last edited by graebz28; 05-10-2010 at 08:36 PM.
09-22-2008, 01:03 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Unless you re-wired the fan it is controlled by three items: the coolant switch on the passenger side head. The dash control switch, and a pressure switch on the A/C line. These go to the fan relay to activate the fan. Any one of the three will turn on the fan.
Can't hurt to open the TB screw some. Easier to close the blades to set the IAC steps for idle then to need to open them. Opening them as the engine is running causes the ECM to drop out of idle mode.
RBob.
Can't hurt to open the TB screw some. Easier to close the blades to set the IAC steps for idle then to need to open them. Opening them as the engine is running causes the ECM to drop out of idle mode.
RBob.
09-22-2008, 03:40 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Roll it up and down the driveway (under it's own power), with the VE Learn running.
I get the trans and rear in tonight so I get do some VEs under load. From what you are saying, a VE has to be done under load. True? Now that I know that the rear main is not going to squirt all over the clutch, I'll hook all that up.
I am going to try to start it again when I get home, just to see if it starts and get the timing set. Glad I got a streetdampner so I can see 20 degrees BTDC.
Is the dash control switch the AC switch? That always would turn it on, just don't know if that is what you are referring about.
Also, my TPS only goes to 92%. I;m pretty sure that anything that uses TPS can be adjusted to compensate.
09-22-2008, 05:08 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Yes, dash control switch for the fan.
For the TPS%, first make sure that when you push the go-pedal down that the TB does truely go wide open. Up against the stop. A floor mat will prevent this (search for 'floor mat mod'). Heck, some 3rd gens from the factory couldn't go to a fully open TB even with the floor mat mod. Needed to remove some padding out from under the carpet.
Once that is OK you can sit in the drivers seat and adjust the "TPS - ADC Gain Term for TPS%" calibration parameter. Found in TP, top pane, between the SA and the AE groups. Just increase it a little at a time and flash it in. Just leave it key-on, engine-off. Then wack the pedal and see if it is at 100%.
VE Learns can be done sitting in the driveway. But what happens is that the load (MAP) areas that are used for driving aren't hit. So it doesn't do a lot of good. I usually make the first drives up & down the drive. Once that is OK, then down the street and back. Once that is OK and I feel as though I can get the car back home, further and longer drives while hitting higher RPM and load areas.
RBob.
For the TPS%, first make sure that when you push the go-pedal down that the TB does truely go wide open. Up against the stop. A floor mat will prevent this (search for 'floor mat mod'). Heck, some 3rd gens from the factory couldn't go to a fully open TB even with the floor mat mod. Needed to remove some padding out from under the carpet.
Once that is OK you can sit in the drivers seat and adjust the "TPS - ADC Gain Term for TPS%" calibration parameter. Found in TP, top pane, between the SA and the AE groups. Just increase it a little at a time and flash it in. Just leave it key-on, engine-off. Then wack the pedal and see if it is at 100%.
VE Learns can be done sitting in the driveway. But what happens is that the load (MAP) areas that are used for driving aren't hit. So it doesn't do a lot of good. I usually make the first drives up & down the drive. Once that is OK, then down the street and back. Once that is OK and I feel as though I can get the car back home, further and longer drives while hitting higher RPM and load areas.
RBob.
Last edited by RBob; 09-22-2008 at 05:13 PM.
09-28-2008, 11:35 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Thanks Bob. Fan TS connector fell out and ended up breaking. I am trying to find the JET sensor I bought way back when and never installed. For now I am just using the AC to turn on the fan. I unplugged the compressor switch, but need to take out the compensation in the bin. As of now, I have not had to use it too much. Got the timing set per directions and bumped up the mechanical idle screw and it started up.
W/O any VE Learns, I was able to drive it around the block and did one learn. All I did was use Ronny's SA main and extended tables on a fresh EBL_F_TB bin as suggested. Then I got some gas and started doing more BLM learns. Went to the exhaust shop and got my cat and WB bung welded on. I never went full throttle and the car ran suprisingly well.
Luckily, I had my good friend TonyC come out from AZ to help me get the initial tune going. I took two days off work and got the car ready and rolling by the time he got here and took my first drive to get him at the airport.
It took us the better end of Saturday to figure out how to install the LC-1 and O-meter. So somewhere around 2am, we started out tuning. We did not see alot of correction doing WB learns, only later to find out that you have to do WB learns in open loop mode. So prior to that, Tony know enough to manually increase and smooth out the VE tables as well as pulling some timing and smoothing it out.
What we saw was that AE was dropping the WB into the 9s and then up top the VE tables were leaning out the mixture.
Sunday on the way take Tony back to the airport, we pulled some more timing out and right at the end altered the commanded AFR. Once we did that, the car really handled the full throttle pretty well.
Next I plan on taking out the commanded AFR and inhibiting closed loop to do some true WB learns. I'll attach the datalog sheet of the latest runs. Let me know if anyone sees anything of great concern. Not sure if I can post the bin, but I can do some screenshots if someone would like to see something.
W/O any VE Learns, I was able to drive it around the block and did one learn. All I did was use Ronny's SA main and extended tables on a fresh EBL_F_TB bin as suggested. Then I got some gas and started doing more BLM learns. Went to the exhaust shop and got my cat and WB bung welded on. I never went full throttle and the car ran suprisingly well.
Luckily, I had my good friend TonyC come out from AZ to help me get the initial tune going. I took two days off work and got the car ready and rolling by the time he got here and took my first drive to get him at the airport.
It took us the better end of Saturday to figure out how to install the LC-1 and O-meter. So somewhere around 2am, we started out tuning. We did not see alot of correction doing WB learns, only later to find out that you have to do WB learns in open loop mode. So prior to that, Tony know enough to manually increase and smooth out the VE tables as well as pulling some timing and smoothing it out.
What we saw was that AE was dropping the WB into the 9s and then up top the VE tables were leaning out the mixture.
Sunday on the way take Tony back to the airport, we pulled some more timing out and right at the end altered the commanded AFR. Once we did that, the car really handled the full throttle pretty well.
Next I plan on taking out the commanded AFR and inhibiting closed loop to do some true WB learns. I'll attach the datalog sheet of the latest runs. Let me know if anyone sees anything of great concern. Not sure if I can post the bin, but I can do some screenshots if someone would like to see something.
Last edited by graebz28; 09-29-2008 at 12:08 AM.
09-29-2008, 09:55 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Rbob, hell of a job with the EBL!!! It's great being able to use 1 cable for everything and the WUD makes monitoring the car a snap. Although tuning at 3-5 AM isn't recommended, I thought we did pretty well for the time we had! The AE fueling and WOT spark were both too much for the setup causing a lot of bogging/detonation when the throttle was stabbed. Took quite a bit of AE out and 3* of spark and it settled down quite a bit to where it was responding pretty well. The VE learn was great stuff, that's cool that it can sort out the WOT fueling as well!
Question 1: The Moates "O-meter" and the EBL software were registering two different values, what's the proper way to calibrate the EBL software? We setup both of the Innovate Wideband outputs to the same voltage/afr profile.
Question 2: Is the EBL software set to "ding" (the windows error sound) whenever a knock is detected?
Question 3: Could anyone shed a little more light onto the subject of knock counts? Total, counts, etc. Is one "knock count" a single detonation event? My car played nice on the dyno where, while increasing timing, power dropped off before I got any knock counts, Mike's car may not be so simple though.
Good luck Mike and keep us posted (with track times ASAP
)
Question 1: The Moates "O-meter" and the EBL software were registering two different values, what's the proper way to calibrate the EBL software? We setup both of the Innovate Wideband outputs to the same voltage/afr profile.
Question 2: Is the EBL software set to "ding" (the windows error sound) whenever a knock is detected?
Question 3: Could anyone shed a little more light onto the subject of knock counts? Total, counts, etc. Is one "knock count" a single detonation event? My car played nice on the dyno where, while increasing timing, power dropped off before I got any knock counts, Mike's car may not be so simple though.
Good luck Mike and keep us posted (with track times ASAP
)
09-29-2008, 10:15 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
graebz28:
Please be aware that bin I sent is for VAFPR. Dont recall if you use one. Need to look at BPC vs VAC and put your BPC in all areas of table unless you use VAFPR. Maybe you already looked there. Since I sent to you I added about 3 deg in SA idle. Idles a little better. and about 2 more at 1200-1400 40-50 MAP and 3 more 1600 40-50 MAP to help bucking at low speed 2nd gear crawl in traffic. Seemed to help.
Please be aware that bin I sent is for VAFPR. Dont recall if you use one. Need to look at BPC vs VAC and put your BPC in all areas of table unless you use VAFPR. Maybe you already looked there. Since I sent to you I added about 3 deg in SA idle. Idles a little better. and about 2 more at 1200-1400 40-50 MAP and 3 more 1600 40-50 MAP to help bucking at low speed 2nd gear crawl in traffic. Seemed to help.
09-29-2008, 10:57 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Thanks Bob. Fan TS connector fell out and ended up breaking. I am trying to find the JET sensor I bought way back when and never installed. For now I am just using the AC to turn on the fan. I unplugged the compressor switch, but need to take out the compensation in the bin. As of now, I have not had to use it too much.
RBob.
09-29-2008, 11:21 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Rbob, hell of a job with the EBL!!! It's great being able to use 1 cable for everything and the WUD makes monitoring the car a snap. Although tuning at 3-5 AM isn't recommended, I thought we did pretty well for the time we had! The AE fueling and WOT spark were both too much for the setup causing a lot of bogging/detonation when the throttle was stabbed. Took quite a bit of AE out and 3* of spark and it settled down quite a bit to where it was responding pretty well. The VE learn was great stuff, that's cool that it can sort out the WOT fueling as well!
Question 1: The Moates "O-meter" and the EBL software were registering two different values, what's the proper way to calibrate the EBL software? We setup both of the Innovate Wideband outputs to the same voltage/afr profile.
Question 2: Is the EBL software set to "ding" (the windows error sound) whenever a knock is detected?
Question 3: Could anyone shed a little more light onto the subject of knock counts? Total, counts, etc. Is one "knock count" a single detonation event? My car played nice on the dyno where, while increasing timing, power dropped off before I got any knock counts, Mike's car may not be so simple though.
Good luck Mike and keep us posted (with track times ASAP )
Question 1: The Moates "O-meter" and the EBL software were registering two different values, what's the proper way to calibrate the EBL software? We setup both of the Innovate Wideband outputs to the same voltage/afr profile.
Question 2: Is the EBL software set to "ding" (the windows error sound) whenever a knock is detected?
Question 3: Could anyone shed a little more light onto the subject of knock counts? Total, counts, etc. Is one "knock count" a single detonation event? My car played nice on the dyno where, while increasing timing, power dropped off before I got any knock counts, Mike's car may not be so simple though.
Good luck Mike and keep us posted (with track times ASAP
)The O-meter and EBL display should be close, within .1 AFR. For the LC-1 to the EBL the setup is: 0V for 10:1, 5V for 20:1 Then select the Innovate (0-5V) WB unit (in the WUD preferences dialog). The output voltage of the LC-1 can be checked with a DVM. It should match up with the 0 to 5V as 10:1 to 20:1.
2) yes, the laptop can ding when knock occurs. To enable/disable it there is a check box in the WUD preferences dialog.
3) knock counts are basically 1 msec slices. The ESC module reports knock in pulses of 1 msec each being sent to the ECM. If knock is bad there can be multiple 1 msec pulses back-to-back. Meaning you can have a 2 or 3 msec pulse.
Using the whole 16 bit PA3 counter value, a 1 msec pulse is 64 counts (or there abouts, it is not a perfect 1 msec). This is the count shown on the main display vertical bar gage. On the Areas of Spark Knock display the counts are divided by 63. This gives a better representation of the actual knock counts.
From looking at the "to airport" log the knock was occuring under light load. This can be caused by other then real detonation.
RBob.
09-29-2008, 11:56 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Ronny,
Thanks again for the bin. Unfortunately, your EBL is the classic and I have the flash. Bob told me that all I should use is your SA tables and start with a fresh bin.
RBob,
Tony was blipping the throttle when down shifting which what was causing the knocks. Like you said, it may have been clutch engagement or something else other that actual knock.
Does what I suggested sound correct? That is bring the commanded AFR back up and start doing some open loop WB Learns?
Thanks again for the bin. Unfortunately, your EBL is the classic and I have the flash. Bob told me that all I should use is your SA tables and start with a fresh bin.
RBob,
Tony was blipping the throttle when down shifting which what was causing the knocks. Like you said, it may have been clutch engagement or something else other that actual knock.
Does what I suggested sound correct? That is bring the commanded AFR back up and start doing some open loop WB Learns?
09-29-2008, 01:40 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
The WB VE Learn will change the VE table so that the reported AFR matches the commanded AFR. Once this is close you can then change the commanded AFR to suit. Remember that there isn't any particular magic AFR number. Best to let the engine let you know what it wants, and adjust accordingly.
At the same time, I don't know what the commanded AFR is, or how much E is in the fuel.
RBob.
At the same time, I don't know what the commanded AFR is, or how much E is in the fuel.
RBob.
09-30-2008, 02:44 AM
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LC-1 BullS$!T
OK, so I connected to LC-1 w/ LM Programmer. Each time I connect, AO1&2 go back to default setting w/ AO1 like a NB and AO2 from 7-22 = 0-5V. I put each to 10-20 = 0-5. Each time I get the same result even after using the reset calibration and starting over with free air calibration. It's late and I'm a bit perturbed.
O-meter - brown wire - AO2 jumps to 15 on key on and EBL stays at 10. After I fire it up, they somewhat stay together, then the o-meter takes off.
I checked with a DMV and they both appear to be reading what is being sent out by the WB, which leads me to believe that the problem is the LC-1.
Other facts in no particular order:
All grounds tie into a single wire on the engine head.
All connections are soldered and heat shrinked.
o-meter is calibrated 10-20 = 0-5V
All power comes from the same source, a fused lead soldered into the power windows. 12V verified.
Most of the time I was getting 5V @ ometer and 0 at EBL with key off.
During programing, LC-1 flashed steadily.
After programing, power down and removal of the connection, it blinks slow (heat up) then fast, then goes solid.
I did not update the firmware.
I know that I saw some other similar threads in the past, but I'm tired so I check them out tomorrow as well as give moates a call. Nothing else to say other than
In Advance.
O-meter - brown wire - AO2 jumps to 15 on key on and EBL stays at 10. After I fire it up, they somewhat stay together, then the o-meter takes off.
I checked with a DMV and they both appear to be reading what is being sent out by the WB, which leads me to believe that the problem is the LC-1.
Other facts in no particular order:
All grounds tie into a single wire on the engine head.
All connections are soldered and heat shrinked.
o-meter is calibrated 10-20 = 0-5V
All power comes from the same source, a fused lead soldered into the power windows. 12V verified.
Most of the time I was getting 5V @ ometer and 0 at EBL with key off.
During programing, LC-1 flashed steadily.
After programing, power down and removal of the connection, it blinks slow (heat up) then fast, then goes solid.
I did not update the firmware.
I know that I saw some other similar threads in the past, but I'm tired so I check them out tomorrow as well as give moates a call. Nothing else to say other than
In Advance. Last edited by graebz28; 09-30-2008 at 10:22 AM.
09-30-2008, 02:50 AM
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AFR and E
We were using 12.8 then went
11.80 - 6375
11.80
11.80
12.00
12.00
12.80
12.80
12.80 - 800
As far as I can tell, KC has the fed mandated 10% of E. I am currently running BP 92.
11.80 - 6375
11.80
11.80
12.00
12.00
12.80
12.80
12.80 - 800
As far as I can tell, KC has the fed mandated 10% of E. I am currently running BP 92.
09-30-2008, 09:52 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
On the ride in, EBL WB reading maxed out at 12. O-meter was at 15 on key on, then jump around a lot like it was picking up noise. I thought I logged it, but the logger was paused somehow.
09-30-2008, 12:09 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
With 10% E, the general area for WOT is 12.0 to 12.3 AFR. So you are not too far off with 11.8:1.
With a cat-con GM makes the mid-range rich to put out the cat. This helps to prevent melting it.
The logging can be paused by hitting the Enter key. Then un-paused by hitting the space bar. It may be that hitting any key will un-pause it, not sure.
RBob.
With a cat-con GM makes the mid-range rich to put out the cat. This helps to prevent melting it.
The logging can be paused by hitting the Enter key. Then un-paused by hitting the space bar. It may be that hitting any key will un-pause it, not sure.
RBob.
10-04-2008, 03:06 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
I have not been on the site for a while and even then for some reason did not get email from here....
Ever have all your cookies deleted and have to remember all your passwords? It sux..
Anywho I'm glad to hear that you got it going. I'll bet now with that 6 speed that you want a steeper rear gear......right?
Ever have all your cookies deleted and have to remember all your passwords? It sux..
Anywho I'm glad to hear that you got it going. I'll bet now with that 6 speed that you want a steeper rear gear......right?
10-21-2008, 09:49 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
I never understood about power bands of a cam prior to driving this car. I think the hotcam is 1500-6500, and the car does not make power below 1800. If I need to move, I have to down shift. Also, I need to bring the car up higher in RPMs when releasing the clutch to prevent shutter.
With the 3.42s I am not in 6th very much since I need to be above 1800. 3.73s or 3.90s are definately needed.
With the 3.42s I am not in 6th very much since I need to be above 1800. 3.73s or 3.90s are definately needed.
10-21-2008, 09:56 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
RBob,
Every time I enter closed loop, the ClsdLp and Learn light come on. Driving to work today, I saw it drop out of closed loop and both lights go off. I enabled the learn and stopped it, but that did not change anything.
I have been on the road for the last two weeks, so no progress on the WB. I downloaded LogWorks3 and now the LC-1 appears to hold the AO ranges. Prior to my problems, the WB was very steady, now it wanders quite a bit. What is it supposed to read after sitting overnight? Full scale (20:1)? I took the o-meter out to limit problematic possibilities. I'll grab a datalog tonight. I plan to try and recalibrate it this weekend. I'm studying for the Fundamentals of Engineering test I need to take this weekend.
Every time I enter closed loop, the ClsdLp and Learn light come on. Driving to work today, I saw it drop out of closed loop and both lights go off. I enabled the learn and stopped it, but that did not change anything.
I have been on the road for the last two weeks, so no progress on the WB. I downloaded LogWorks3 and now the LC-1 appears to hold the AO ranges. Prior to my problems, the WB was very steady, now it wanders quite a bit. What is it supposed to read after sitting overnight? Full scale (20:1)? I took the o-meter out to limit problematic possibilities. I'll grab a datalog tonight. I plan to try and recalibrate it this weekend. I'm studying for the Fundamentals of Engineering test I need to take this weekend.
10-21-2008, 11:33 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
The ECM will drop out of closed loop and learn for a number of reasons. If the O2 goes inactive, lean cruise mode active, or open loop decel enabled are a few. Can use the analysis dispaly and dump the log. Then open the dump file in Notepad or Word pad. Lots of information to show what happened.
RBob.
RBob.
10-21-2008, 02:44 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
I know what you mean about the powerband on the cam...it pulls okay from 2k-3k, but really wakes up above 3k. Looking at the torque curve when mine was on the dyno, it's no wonder why...here's a link with the hp/tq curves: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...c-lt4-hot.html
The torque jumps up about 50 ft-lb just before 3k. Does your engine feel like this as well?
Good luck on the FE. I'll be taking it in the spring.
The torque jumps up about 50 ft-lb just before 3k. Does your engine feel like this as well?
Good luck on the FE. I'll be taking it in the spring.
10-22-2008, 11:34 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Rbob,
Thanks in advance again for all the help.
You may have missed my point in the above post. As soon as the car goes into closed loop, the ClsdLP AND LEARN lights come on but I did NOT turn learn on. Why does EBL force the learn. Again, I turned learn on and off to see if that helped, but it always stays on.
I drove to lunch yesterday and logged. WB was all zeros in the log even though I saw live values on WUD and LogWorks. They appear to be dead on to each other. On way home, it came back but was extremely sluggish when I did a few 4th gear throttle stabs.
I burned through half a tank at only 80 miles?
I attached a throttle stab before the problem, and two from yesterday. Can you take a peak to see if you see anything out of the ordinary.
Thanks in advance again for all the help.
You may have missed my point in the above post. As soon as the car goes into closed loop, the ClsdLP AND LEARN lights come on but I did NOT turn learn on. Why does EBL force the learn. Again, I turned learn on and off to see if that helped, but it always stays on.
I drove to lunch yesterday and logged. WB was all zeros in the log even though I saw live values on WUD and LogWorks. They appear to be dead on to each other. On way home, it came back but was extremely sluggish when I did a few 4th gear throttle stabs.
I burned through half a tank at only 80 miles?
I attached a throttle stab before the problem, and two from yesterday. Can you take a peak to see if you see anything out of the ordinary.
10-22-2008, 01:52 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Regarding above, what does the Learn light indicate? I could have sworn that before it only came on when I was in a VE or WB learn. I have been reading up on a regular ECMs having a learn while in closed loop.
What is LearnCr?
EBL documentation does not describe anywhere what the leds on WUD are and what the headers of the logs are, unless I missed them a hundred times It would be a good adder.
What is LearnCr?
EBL documentation does not describe anywhere what the leds on WUD are and what the headers of the logs are, unless I missed them a hundred times
It would be a good adder. Last edited by graebz28; 10-22-2008 at 02:06 PM.
10-22-2008, 02:08 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
The Learn & closed loop on the WUD are ECM operations. This is the ECM going into closed loop mode. Closed loop allows the INT to change and enables proportional gains.
Then learn enables the BLMs to change.
LeanCr is lean cruise mode. The AFR is leaned out and spark timing added (typically). This results in better mileage.
Youa re correct about the indicators & log headers not being described. Need to make a note to do that.
If you saw line WB values on the WUD and not in the log, check that you didn't change the WB settings in the Preferences dialog.
RBob.
----------
The engine is going way-way rich on the throttle stabs. Check the WB column. As the throttle is held the AFR gets back to normal. Good possibility there is too much AE (which will also kill fuel mileage).
Go to the AE - MAP PW and AE - TPS PW tables and reduce the entire tables by 20 % (multiply by .8). See if it gets better.
RBob.
Then learn enables the BLMs to change.
LeanCr is lean cruise mode. The AFR is leaned out and spark timing added (typically). This results in better mileage.
Youa re correct about the indicators & log headers not being described. Need to make a note to do that.
If you saw line WB values on the WUD and not in the log, check that you didn't change the WB settings in the Preferences dialog.
RBob.
----------
Go to the AE - MAP PW and AE - TPS PW tables and reduce the entire tables by 20 % (multiply by .8). See if it gets better.
RBob.
Last edited by RBob; 10-22-2008 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-29-2008, 02:03 PM
#32
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Raped Ape
OK, so my car was running like crap and I had to take it from KC to KU in Lawrence, KS to take my FE exam. (Enough acronyms yet?) Found one of the wires on the header. Fix that and I am just under my 15th WB Learn and it just keeps getting better each time. I am starting to get some knocks, so I am assuming to begin pulling some timing out.
The learns keep adding VE in the lower right of the table and taking some out in the upper left. This makes sense to me since Tony and I added VE across the entire table when we were doing the WB learns incorrect; not disabling closed loop. The cam power band is above 1500, the upper left of table would need to be lowered and the powerband raised.
The car drivabilty in 5th and 6th at low rpms has increased tremendously. Not to mention the upper power band is screaming. I am hitting my rev limiter at 5500 now, since I precautionary set it there. Now I think I will raise it to 6000.
My question now is how many more WB learns to do? I attached my current tables. I just want to see if it makes sense to others running the same set-up. I read to do one more BLM learn after I am done with the WBs. I am just worried about the accuracy of the WB. I wish I had a way to test it. Last time I pulled it, there was some carbon build up on it a little. Should I spray it with the air compressor?
I pulled one plug. There was a little build up on the base/threads, but the electrode and insulator was just slighty grayish (ash?)
Also, does anyone have an SA table to an aluminum headed 350 for comparison?
Idle was about 1200, so last night I moved the idle screw on the TB(with car off) until I got it to 925-975. Start up is a little choppy for the first minute, but I typically just start up and go nice until it hits op temp. Now it purrs.
The learns keep adding VE in the lower right of the table and taking some out in the upper left. This makes sense to me since Tony and I added VE across the entire table when we were doing the WB learns incorrect; not disabling closed loop. The cam power band is above 1500, the upper left of table would need to be lowered and the powerband raised.
The car drivabilty in 5th and 6th at low rpms has increased tremendously. Not to mention the upper power band is screaming. I am hitting my rev limiter at 5500 now, since I precautionary set it there. Now I think I will raise it to 6000.
My question now is how many more WB learns to do? I attached my current tables. I just want to see if it makes sense to others running the same set-up. I read to do one more BLM learn after I am done with the WBs. I am just worried about the accuracy of the WB. I wish I had a way to test it. Last time I pulled it, there was some carbon build up on it a little. Should I spray it with the air compressor?
I pulled one plug. There was a little build up on the base/threads, but the electrode and insulator was just slighty grayish (ash?)
Also, does anyone have an SA table to an aluminum headed 350 for comparison?
Idle was about 1200, so last night I moved the idle screw on the TB(with car off) until I got it to 925-975. Start up is a little choppy for the first minute, but I typically just start up and go nice until it hits op temp. Now it purrs.
Last edited by graebz28; 10-29-2008 at 02:53 PM.
10-29-2008, 02:28 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
VE and SA tables
Last edited by graebz28; 10-29-2008 at 06:26 PM.
10-29-2008, 03:03 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Glad it's running well man! Why does the timing increase to 13 or so before dropping to 10 then going back up to full timing? Was it pinging in this area? If this is the area that you're mashing the throttle, could it be from the too rich AE? Methinks that might be a cause, if so, I'd say clean the AE up a bit first, add the timing back in and see if the pinging persists. I may have to plan another trip out there for a ride!!! This time maybe I'll bring Megaton with me! (met him at the tournament last weekend )
Awesome to see the bird kicking butt again!
Tony
) Awesome to see the bird kicking butt again!
Tony
10-29-2008, 06:25 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Thanks TonyC. Tell the girlfriend to get you EBL for X-mas!
Not sure why the timing is like that. I think we may have pulled it down cause we were pinging a bit there. According to RBob's statement above, I think we are where we should be at AE. My fourth gear runs bog a bit at 2000k punch.
RBob,
My last two datalogs do not have WB again, however it appears on WUD. Any thoughts. Does it not log this during a learn maybe?
Didn't post my low VE before. What's up with the valley of death?
Not sure why the timing is like that. I think we may have pulled it down cause we were pinging a bit there. According to RBob's statement above, I think we are where we should be at AE. My fourth gear runs bog a bit at 2000k punch.
RBob,
My last two datalogs do not have WB again, however it appears on WUD. Any thoughts. Does it not log this during a learn maybe?
Didn't post my low VE before. What's up with the valley of death?
Last edited by graebz28; 10-29-2008 at 07:12 PM.
10-29-2008, 09:30 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
The ADC channels are always logged. So even if the WB isn't selected during the logging the data is in the log file. As long as it is connected and providing a signal to the EBL the data will be there.
From the log files you can see the WB data on the analysis screen, graph, and dump file. If you don't see a value other then 0.0 check the Preferences to be sure that the WB channel and unit is correctly selected.
As for your valley of death. This is usually caused by either too much AE or too consistent driving. By too consistent it is that you are using the throttle and gears the same each and every time. This will limit the VE Learn coverage. Can check this by looking at the corrections display of the VE Learn screen.
If the coverage is decent then go back to the analysis display along with the dump log file and see what the WB is reporting at your hit the throttle.
Have you reduced the AE as I previously suggested? If so you may need to further reduce it.
RBob.
From the log files you can see the WB data on the analysis screen, graph, and dump file. If you don't see a value other then 0.0 check the Preferences to be sure that the WB channel and unit is correctly selected.
As for your valley of death. This is usually caused by either too much AE or too consistent driving. By too consistent it is that you are using the throttle and gears the same each and every time. This will limit the VE Learn coverage. Can check this by looking at the corrections display of the VE Learn screen.
If the coverage is decent then go back to the analysis display along with the dump log file and see what the WB is reporting at your hit the throttle.
Have you reduced the AE as I previously suggested? If so you may need to further reduce it.
RBob.
10-30-2008, 10:44 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
If you don't see a value other then 0.0 check the Preferences to be sure that the WB channel and unit is correctly selected.
As for your valley of death. This is usually caused by either too much AE or too consistent driving. By too consistent it is that you are using the throttle and gears the same each and every time. This will limit the VE Learn coverage. Can check this by looking at the corrections display of the VE Learn screen.
Have you reduced the AE as I previously suggested? If so you may need to further reduce it.
Should I be concerned if the WB looks a little fouled?
Last edited by graebz28; 10-30-2008 at 10:58 AM.
10-30-2008, 01:18 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Is it better to do long or short WB learns? I typically have been turning it on, stagging at the entrance to the freeway, blast through 1-4. Then, do a few 4th or 3-4 gear pulls from 2k up. After that, i flash again and repeat. I also have done a few on the street going to work and mainly just hitting 1st and 2nd.
Should I be concerned if the WB looks a little fouled?
Should I be concerned if the WB looks a little fouled?
Note how it starts at low RPM high MAP and travels to higher RPM low MAP. That is the path through the VE table during just pulling out, such as in traffic.
The best way to do VE learns is to mix it up. Along with a steady throttle. IOW, move the throttle to a new posiiton and hold it for a moment. When the throttle is moving no learn can take place.
Can run the RPM up at low and medium loads. Take different routes, find hills, take them at different speeds & loads. Use an industrial park after hours and do traffic crawls.
Make sure that the VE Learn CTS thresholds bracket the normal operating temperature of the engine. For other then WOT learning lots of driving in varying RPM & loads & conditions does the trick.
A little carbon on the WB is normal.
RBob.
10-31-2008, 11:51 AM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Double checked the WB settings. When I play back a log, I see the WB, just not when I analyze and/or dump.
Changing AE now and going for a run.
Changing AE now and going for a run.
11-05-2008, 12:53 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
OK, I know I have a long way to go and my head hurts from doing a ton of research on old post, but can you verify I am reading the below correctly.
I think that the WB learns are done, at least I am not seeing much corrections anymore. So I re-enabled closed loop and started doing BLM learns again.
What appears to happen below is that I stomp throttle (4th gear), I get knocks and the timing retards a few. When AE kicks in, it is not enough pump shot and we go real lean for a few, then continue to drop past commanded AFR and go way rich.
I read somewhere RBob says he manually adjusts the VE based on WB. I took out .8 from the AE and was getting 20:1 when I stabbed so I went back the other way for now.
I compared my AE to Ronny's and it looks like I am almost double what he has.
Should I stay with trying to get the VE High table better by comparing AFR and WB? In open loop?
I have not enabled n/v yet because I am not sure if I want to go there yet. When I do, should I start with the settings from the 5.3L bin? That is the only one that I see has some numbers in the N/V - Manual Trans Ratios.
----------
Also, I switched the WB to channel 1 and took the system ground to the ECU. I seems to be working better now and I am getting the WB in analysis dumps. I also did another free air calibration.
I think that the WB learns are done, at least I am not seeing much corrections anymore. So I re-enabled closed loop and started doing BLM learns again.
What appears to happen below is that I stomp throttle (4th gear), I get knocks and the timing retards a few. When AE kicks in, it is not enough pump shot and we go real lean for a few, then continue to drop past commanded AFR and go way rich.
I read somewhere RBob says he manually adjusts the VE based on WB. I took out .8 from the AE and was getting 20:1 when I stabbed so I went back the other way for now.
I compared my AE to Ronny's and it looks like I am almost double what he has.
Should I stay with trying to get the VE High table better by comparing AFR and WB? In open loop?
I have not enabled n/v yet because I am not sure if I want to go there yet. When I do, should I start with the settings from the 5.3L bin? That is the only one that I see has some numbers in the N/V - Manual Trans Ratios.
Code:
VE% TPS AFR WB Ae Pe SA CTS IAT I/C O2 G/S KnkCt sPW aPW DC% 57 9 14.7 14.8 N N 30 181 100 172 668 73 5438 0.977 0 7 66 14 14.7 14.6 N N 30 181 100 172 752 87 5438 2.197 0 16 90 47 12.7 14.8 Y N 28 181 100 172 783 119 5438 8.118 0 62 89 100 12.7 17.8 Y Y 11 181 100 169 84 110 5438 7.843 0 57 91 100 12.7 16.9 Y Y 12 181 100 169 44 129 5438 7.111 0 56 89 100 12.7 12.7 Y Y 11 181 100 168 735 110 5535 6.5 0 48 91 100 12.7 11.3 Y Y 11 181 100 168 867 128 5535 6.104 0 47 91 100 12.7 11.2 Y Y 12 181 100 168 898 115 5535 5.951 0 45 91 100 12.6 10.6 Y Y 13 181 100 169 916 125 5535 5.737 0 44 91 100 12.7 10.5 Y Y 13 181 100 169 925 114 5535 5.676 0 43 91 100 12.7 10.5 Y Y 13 181 100 171 938 121 5535 5.371 0 41 91 100 12.7 10.5 Y Y 13 181 100 169 938 120 5535 5.157 0 39 91 100 12.7 10.9 Y Y 13 181 100 169 934 123 5535 4.852 0 37 91 100 12.7 10.8 Y Y 13 181 100 169 938 121 5535 4.578 0 35 91 100 12.7 10.8 Y Y 13 181 100 169 938 125 5535 4.578 0 36 91 100 12.7 11 Y Y 13 181 100 169 929 123 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.3 Y Y 13 181 100 169 929 126 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.3 Y Y 14 181 100 169 925 125 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.7 Y Y 14 181 100 169 920 126 5535 4.395 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.7 N Y 14 181 100 169 925 126 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.8 N Y 14 181 100 169 916 122 5535 4.15 0 33 91 100 12.7 11.6 N Y 14 181 100 169 916 123 5535 4.15 0 33 91 100 12.7 11.8 N Y 14 181 100 169 920 125 5535 4.15 0 33 91 100 12.6 11.9 N Y 14 181 100 169 912 128 5535 4.12 0 32 91 100 12.7 12.1 N Y 14 181 100 169 907 127 5535 4.12 0 33 90 100 12.6 12.3 N Y 15 181 100 169 903 130 5535 4.12 0 33 90 100 12.6 12.2 N Y 15 181 100 169 907 128 5535 4.12 0 34 90 99 12.6 12.1 N Y 15 181 100 169 903 128 5535 4.089 0 34 91 87 12.6 12.2 N Y 14 181 100 169 912 127 5535 4.059 0 33 90 72 12.6 11.9 N Y 15 181 100 169 912 128 5535 3.967 0 33 90 62 12.5 11.6 N Y 16 181 100 169 920 131 5535 3.937 0 33 91 49 12.5 11.4 N Y 18 181 100 169 916 131 5535 3.815 0 32 91 38 12.6 11 N Y 18 181 100 169 938 133 5535 3.571 0 29 91 33 14.7 10.5 N N 21 181 100 169 942 133 5535 2.472 0 20 88 28 14.7 10.1 N N 25 181 100 169 956 127 5535 2.289 0 19 83 22 14.7 10.2 N N 27 181 100 169 956 118 5535 1.923 0 16 80 19 14.7 10.4 N N 28 181 100 169 956 117 5535 1.709 0 14 78 18 14.7 10.8 N N 30 181 100 169 942 115 5535 1.617 0 13 78 15 14.7 11.2 N N 30 181 100 169 938 112 5535 1.465 0 12 78 13 14.7 11.5 N N 30 181 100 171 925 111 5535 1.465 0 12 80 13 14.7 11.7 N N 31 181 100 171 916 120 5535 1.465 0 12 80 10 14.7 11.6 N N 30 181 100 169 929 116 5535 1.312 0 11 70 7 14.7 11.6 N N 30 181 100 171 938 104 5535 1.16 0 9 51 3 15.2 11.3 N N 31 181 100 171 938 74 5535 0 0.93 0 55 0 15.2 11.1 N N 31 181 100 173 938 78 5535 0 0 0 53 0 15.1 10.9 N N 31 181 100 173 916 79 5535 0 1.02 8
Also, I switched the WB to channel 1 and took the system ground to the ECU. I seems to be working better now and I am getting the WB in analysis dumps. I also did another free air calibration.
Last edited by graebz28; 11-05-2008 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
11-05-2008, 01:10 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
OK, I know I have a long way to go and my head hurts from doing a ton of research on old post, but can you verify I am reading the below correctly.
I think that the WB learns are done, at least I am not seeing much corrections anymore. So I re-enabled closed loop and started doing BLM learns again.
What appears to happen below is that I stomp throttle (4th gear), I get knocks and the timing retards a few. When AE kicks in, it is not enough pump shot and we go real lean for a few, then continue to drop past commanded AFR and go way rich.
I read somewhere RBob says he manually adjusts the VE based on WB. I took out .8 from the AE and was getting 20:1 when I stabbed so I went back the other way for now.
I compared my AE to Ronny's and it looks like I am almost double what he has.
Should I stay with trying to get the VE High table better by comparing AFR and WB? In open loop?
I have not enabled n/v yet because I am not sure if I want to go there yet. When I do, should I start with the settings from the 5.3L bin? That is the only one that I see has some numbers in the N/V - Manual Trans Ratios.
----------
Also, I switched the WB to channel 1 and took the system ground to the ECU. I seems to be working better now and I am getting the WB in analysis dumps. I also did another free air calibration.
I think that the WB learns are done, at least I am not seeing much corrections anymore. So I re-enabled closed loop and started doing BLM learns again.
What appears to happen below is that I stomp throttle (4th gear), I get knocks and the timing retards a few. When AE kicks in, it is not enough pump shot and we go real lean for a few, then continue to drop past commanded AFR and go way rich.
I read somewhere RBob says he manually adjusts the VE based on WB. I took out .8 from the AE and was getting 20:1 when I stabbed so I went back the other way for now.
I compared my AE to Ronny's and it looks like I am almost double what he has.
Should I stay with trying to get the VE High table better by comparing AFR and WB? In open loop?
I have not enabled n/v yet because I am not sure if I want to go there yet. When I do, should I start with the settings from the 5.3L bin? That is the only one that I see has some numbers in the N/V - Manual Trans Ratios.
Code:
VE% TPS AFR WB Ae Pe SA CTS IAT I/C O2 G/S KnkCt sPW aPW DC% 57 9 14.7 14.8 N N 30 181 100 172 668 73 5438 0.977 0 7 66 14 14.7 14.6 N N 30 181 100 172 752 87 5438 2.197 0 16 90 47 12.7 14.8 Y N 28 181 100 172 783 119 5438 8.118 0 62 89 100 12.7 17.8 Y Y 11 181 100 169 84 110 5438 7.843 0 57 91 100 12.7 16.9 Y Y 12 181 100 169 44 129 5438 7.111 0 56 89 100 12.7 12.7 Y Y 11 181 100 168 735 110 5535 6.5 0 48 91 100 12.7 11.3 Y Y 11 181 100 168 867 128 5535 6.104 0 47 91 100 12.7 11.2 Y Y 12 181 100 168 898 115 5535 5.951 0 45 91 100 12.6 10.6 Y Y 13 181 100 169 916 125 5535 5.737 0 44 91 100 12.7 10.5 Y Y 13 181 100 169 925 114 5535 5.676 0 43 91 100 12.7 10.5 Y Y 13 181 100 171 938 121 5535 5.371 0 41 91 100 12.7 10.5 Y Y 13 181 100 169 938 120 5535 5.157 0 39 91 100 12.7 10.9 Y Y 13 181 100 169 934 123 5535 4.852 0 37 91 100 12.7 10.8 Y Y 13 181 100 169 938 121 5535 4.578 0 35 91 100 12.7 10.8 Y Y 13 181 100 169 938 125 5535 4.578 0 36 91 100 12.7 11 Y Y 13 181 100 169 929 123 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.3 Y Y 13 181 100 169 929 126 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.3 Y Y 14 181 100 169 925 125 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.7 Y Y 14 181 100 169 920 126 5535 4.395 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.7 N Y 14 181 100 169 925 126 5535 4.425 0 35 91 100 12.7 11.8 N Y 14 181 100 169 916 122 5535 4.15 0 33 91 100 12.7 11.6 N Y 14 181 100 169 916 123 5535 4.15 0 33 91 100 12.7 11.8 N Y 14 181 100 169 920 125 5535 4.15 0 33 91 100 12.6 11.9 N Y 14 181 100 169 912 128 5535 4.12 0 32 91 100 12.7 12.1 N Y 14 181 100 169 907 127 5535 4.12 0 33 90 100 12.6 12.3 N Y 15 181 100 169 903 130 5535 4.12 0 33 90 100 12.6 12.2 N Y 15 181 100 169 907 128 5535 4.12 0 34 90 99 12.6 12.1 N Y 15 181 100 169 903 128 5535 4.089 0 34 91 87 12.6 12.2 N Y 14 181 100 169 912 127 5535 4.059 0 33 90 72 12.6 11.9 N Y 15 181 100 169 912 128 5535 3.967 0 33 90 62 12.5 11.6 N Y 16 181 100 169 920 131 5535 3.937 0 33 91 49 12.5 11.4 N Y 18 181 100 169 916 131 5535 3.815 0 32 91 38 12.6 11 N Y 18 181 100 169 938 133 5535 3.571 0 29 91 33 14.7 10.5 N N 21 181 100 169 942 133 5535 2.472 0 20 88 28 14.7 10.1 N N 25 181 100 169 956 127 5535 2.289 0 19 83 22 14.7 10.2 N N 27 181 100 169 956 118 5535 1.923 0 16 80 19 14.7 10.4 N N 28 181 100 169 956 117 5535 1.709 0 14 78 18 14.7 10.8 N N 30 181 100 169 942 115 5535 1.617 0 13 78 15 14.7 11.2 N N 30 181 100 169 938 112 5535 1.465 0 12 78 13 14.7 11.5 N N 30 181 100 171 925 111 5535 1.465 0 12 80 13 14.7 11.7 N N 31 181 100 171 916 120 5535 1.465 0 12 80 10 14.7 11.6 N N 30 181 100 169 929 116 5535 1.312 0 11 70 7 14.7 11.6 N N 30 181 100 171 938 104 5535 1.16 0 9 51 3 15.2 11.3 N N 31 181 100 171 938 74 5535 0 0.93 0 55 0 15.2 11.1 N N 31 181 100 173 938 78 5535 0 0 0 53 0 15.1 10.9 N N 31 181 100 173 916 79 5535 0 1.02 8
Also, I switched the WB to channel 1 and took the system ground to the ECU. I seems to be working better now and I am getting the WB in analysis dumps. I also did another free air calibration.
Rbob, do you prefer adjusting the AE for TPS changes or MAP changes? Just a theory, but could it be that the big 2" throttle blades cause such a rapid increase in manifold pressure (drop in vacuum) that it renders the large AE fueling useless? If this was the case, maybe try and base the majority of the AE off of deltaTPS.
11-05-2008, 02:37 PM
#42
Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
My AE tables are based upon 80 lbs injectors at 20 lbs FP. I have since changed them a few times experimenting AETPS vs MAP. Today I pulled the MAP values back down 20% and enrichened TPS at TPS position 0-25% by 25%. See my post. I am fat during end of AE but somewhat lean in PE at about 12.9/1? That is way too lean for E10. I pulled a lot of AETPS 25% -50% past month tuning. I am commmanded to 12.0/1 for PE currently. Was at 12.3/1 commanded up until a couple weeks ago. AE is a struggle but was much worse.
Grams per sec? I see you are maxed at 130. Is that what is expected? This am I did a TPS 100%PE and saw 147 at 3400 rpms at 82 MPH . I never looked at gramspersec till past couple weeks. apparently some value as a tuning parameter.
Grams per sec? I see you are maxed at 130. Is that what is expected? This am I did a TPS 100%PE and saw 147 at 3400 rpms at 82 MPH . I never looked at gramspersec till past couple weeks. apparently some value as a tuning parameter.
11-05-2008, 04:54 PM
#43
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
AE is fun to tune. There are several threads on it here at TGO.
The lean spike that is seen at the moment the throttle is opened can not be gotten rid of. It will happen with MPFI, TBI, or a (gasp) carb. Best bet is to put as much AE into the dTPS PW. And as little as possible in dMAP PW.
What I do for tuning AE is step response. This is where from a steady state condition (cruise, stopped, high speed, but steady state), then quickly push the go-pedal and hold it. Don't push the go-pedal all of the way, do it where it is depressed 20%, then a couple of steps to 40%, and so on.
In the dump file the last columns are AE information. Shows the delta TPS and MAP (used to see what area of the TAP & MAP PW tables are being used), along with the PW values. Then the final AE that is added to the sync PW (for TBI).
Once the small step response AE is tuned in, then move on to larger steps.
Note the AE vs RPM compensation table. As the engine RPM increases less AE is required. This has to do with the flow velocity through the intake. A punch at 4800 RPM on a 6200 RPM engine is going to need little AE if any at all.
Most of the time AE is needed at low RPM through low-mid RPM, then tapers off. On the dTPS PW table, it isn't unusual to have the AE lowered as the dTPS increases. Part of this is due to the ECM going into PE mode.
In the above data log posting, each line entry is 1/17th of a second. That is, 17 lines for 1 second of time. This is as long as no lines have been removed.
RBob.
The lean spike that is seen at the moment the throttle is opened can not be gotten rid of. It will happen with MPFI, TBI, or a (gasp) carb. Best bet is to put as much AE into the dTPS PW. And as little as possible in dMAP PW.
What I do for tuning AE is step response. This is where from a steady state condition (cruise, stopped, high speed, but steady state), then quickly push the go-pedal and hold it. Don't push the go-pedal all of the way, do it where it is depressed 20%, then a couple of steps to 40%, and so on.
In the dump file the last columns are AE information. Shows the delta TPS and MAP (used to see what area of the TAP & MAP PW tables are being used), along with the PW values. Then the final AE that is added to the sync PW (for TBI).
Once the small step response AE is tuned in, then move on to larger steps.
Note the AE vs RPM compensation table. As the engine RPM increases less AE is required. This has to do with the flow velocity through the intake. A punch at 4800 RPM on a 6200 RPM engine is going to need little AE if any at all.
Most of the time AE is needed at low RPM through low-mid RPM, then tapers off. On the dTPS PW table, it isn't unusual to have the AE lowered as the dTPS increases. Part of this is due to the ECM going into PE mode.
In the above data log posting, each line entry is 1/17th of a second. That is, 17 lines for 1 second of time. This is as long as no lines have been removed.
RBob.
11-05-2008, 07:34 PM
#44
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
In the above data log posting, each line entry is 1/17th of a second. That is, 17 lines for 1 second of time. This is as long as no lines have been removed.
To manually tune in the VE tables then, I should stay out of AE and PE and compare AFR to WB. That is an average of the WB since in closed loop it will swing back and forth for the cat? What interval for the average?
Should I be using the averaging function of the LC-1 or just keep it raw. I have it set to the lowest averaging interval.
Thanks you guys for the input.
Ronny, are you using the n/v function yet? Your VE tables look nice and smooth. Was that all via learns or did you smooth it out?
I found a dyno out here. Hope to hit it up this weekend to verify the WB is accurate and get a baseline. 65 for 3 pulls with A/F. Hopefully they can use my bung cause, correct me if I am wrong, that if it is measured in the tailpipe it will be way off due to the cat.
11-05-2008, 07:45 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
When you mentioned in the previous post that I posted about manually tuning VE via a WB, was this from a pre-EBL posting of mine?
The reason I ask is that the VE Learn using a WB will tune in PE/WOT VE values. It is recommended that you start rich and let the WB lean from there. Then check the VE Learn corrections before using the new calibration. this is a double check that the WB based corrections are reasonable. No sense in holing a piston because something happended to the WB unit.
To use the WB for WOT VE Learning set the forced open loop flag(s) and drive around. The WUD will compare the commanded AFR to the WB reported AFR and make corrections.
RBob.
The reason I ask is that the VE Learn using a WB will tune in PE/WOT VE values. It is recommended that you start rich and let the WB lean from there. Then check the VE Learn corrections before using the new calibration. this is a double check that the WB based corrections are reasonable. No sense in holing a piston because something happended to the WB unit.
To use the WB for WOT VE Learning set the forced open loop flag(s) and drive around. The WUD will compare the commanded AFR to the WB reported AFR and make corrections.
RBob.
11-06-2008, 09:23 AM
#46
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Makes sense to me. I was looking at the other log stuff, I just left it out to keep the post small.
To manually tune in the VE tables then, I should stay out of AE and PE and compare AFR to WB. That is an average of the WB since in closed loop it will swing back and forth for the cat? What interval for the average?
Should I be using the averaging function of the LC-1 or just keep it raw. I have it set to the lowest averaging interval.
Thanks you guys for the input.
Ronny, are you using the n/v function yet? Your VE tables look nice and smooth. Was that all via learns or did you smooth it out?
I found a dyno out here. Hope to hit it up this weekend to verify the WB is accurate and get a baseline. 65 for 3 pulls with A/F. Hopefully they can use my bung cause, correct me if I am wrong, that if it is measured in the tailpipe it will be way off due to the cat.
To manually tune in the VE tables then, I should stay out of AE and PE and compare AFR to WB. That is an average of the WB since in closed loop it will swing back and forth for the cat? What interval for the average?
Should I be using the averaging function of the LC-1 or just keep it raw. I have it set to the lowest averaging interval.
Thanks you guys for the input.
Ronny, are you using the n/v function yet? Your VE tables look nice and smooth. Was that all via learns or did you smooth it out?
I found a dyno out here. Hope to hit it up this weekend to verify the WB is accurate and get a baseline. 65 for 3 pulls with A/F. Hopefully they can use my bung cause, correct me if I am wrong, that if it is measured in the tailpipe it will be way off due to the cat.
AFR is just a tool to tune for power; a car should not be tuned for AFR. As long as the AFR on your wideband is *repeatable and consistent* then you will be able to tune for power.
Good luck man, this is exciting stuff!
11-06-2008, 09:42 AM
#47
Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
My VE tables are learned to the extent there are corrections in maybe 70% of the cells. As you are aware some cells are difficult to learn in. I smooth every time I do a Learn VE. I started using a factor of .95 and now am using .70(Tunerpro). seems the smoothing is not all that great. Now the bin you are looking at was changed since I am seeing a lean PE(20 lbs 80 lbs) at 12.90/1. So I pulled about 10% out of VE 3600 rpms/70MAP and up. I think the puter looks at those VE cells to calc PE. Duty cycle in PE max I see is 65%.
I AM using NB for BLM tuning. WB for PE and AE. I still need to patch into WU datalogs my AFR. My output(only one?) on controller is now powering my piller mount AFR gauge. I wonder if I can split it? Anyone know?
I AM using NB for BLM tuning. WB for PE and AE. I still need to patch into WU datalogs my AFR. My output(only one?) on controller is now powering my piller mount AFR gauge. I wonder if I can split it? Anyone know?
Last edited by Ronny; 11-06-2008 at 10:17 AM.
11-06-2008, 03:25 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
When you mentioned in the previous post that I posted about manually tuning VE via a WB, was this from a pre-EBL posting of mine?
I AM using NB for BLM tuning. WB for PE and AE. I still need to patch into WU datalogs my AFR. My output(only one?) on controller is now powering my piller mount AFR gauge. I wonder if I can split it? Anyone know?
http://www.hotektech.com/GMCSignalConditioners.htm
Google "Voltage Signal Splitter" for other options.
You really shouldn't be concerned with the WB number as long as it's "safe". Obviously if the AFR is creeping up into the 14's - 15's range, stop the run and rethink some of the tables (or do more learns).
start rich and let the WB lean from there. Then check the VE Learn corrections before using the new calibration. this is a double check that the WB based corrections are reasonable. No sense in holing a piston because something happended to the WB unit.
At any rate it is starting to make more sense now. I know that if I moderately stab the throttle I get better response than going 0 -> 100%.
I get knocks just punching it at idle right now, so I need to verify if it is true or not. I found I have a noisy tension pulley with a auto stethoscope, so I'll pull off the belt and give it a stab and see what happens. I have another one in the garage if it is.
11-26-2008, 02:31 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
And the tuning saga continues...
Car is running great, but I have a few concerns. Since it is getting really cold right now, I noticed a very lean start up. I adjusted the RPMs vs CTS (soorry forgot the correct XREF) and made it run a bit higher at colder temps. One problem I see is while the map is only moving from 41-43, the SA ramps from 20-30 until it gets warmer. I still have not hooked up my A/C, so I experimented today and turned it on just to get the steps to increase by 10 and +50 RPMs.
When warmed up and running, I get some knocks blipping in neutral. I have been pulling back a little and it seems to be getting better on counts. Pulling this back seems to make the car run smoother as well. I was expecting more timing than most with the E-TEC 200s, but as other post have shown efficient heads will require less timing.
When I do a slow ramp to WOT, the car breaks the tires loose at 3600 or so, which is kinda good to bring me out of the hole controlled. I am getting a few knocks in the upper rpm and high map, but not really that much.
My next step is to verify the latency since I read some good articles on that. I have a new hand-held scope at work I can borrow, but need some clarification on how to actually hook it up. I also need to get a better dizzy clamp since timing walked from 6 to 9.5 on me. I just adjusted it in the prom rather than moving it physically. I'll have to check it again this weekend before messing with anything else. Also, need to implement N/V ratios.
Last week to go to the track. I have been meaning to go for weeks, but I never seem to get out the door until 2 hours before they close. I hope to spend all day there Sunday. Anybody else going to KCIR?
Car is running great, but I have a few concerns. Since it is getting really cold right now, I noticed a very lean start up. I adjusted the RPMs vs CTS (soorry forgot the correct XREF) and made it run a bit higher at colder temps. One problem I see is while the map is only moving from 41-43, the SA ramps from 20-30 until it gets warmer. I still have not hooked up my A/C, so I experimented today and turned it on just to get the steps to increase by 10 and +50 RPMs.
When warmed up and running, I get some knocks blipping in neutral. I have been pulling back a little and it seems to be getting better on counts. Pulling this back seems to make the car run smoother as well. I was expecting more timing than most with the E-TEC 200s, but as other post have shown efficient heads will require less timing.
When I do a slow ramp to WOT, the car breaks the tires loose at 3600 or so, which is kinda good to bring me out of the hole controlled. I am getting a few knocks in the upper rpm and high map, but not really that much.
My next step is to verify the latency since I read some good articles on that. I have a new hand-held scope at work I can borrow, but need some clarification on how to actually hook it up. I also need to get a better dizzy clamp since timing walked from 6 to 9.5 on me. I just adjusted it in the prom rather than moving it physically. I'll have to check it again this weekend before messing with anything else. Also, need to implement N/V ratios.
Last week to go to the track. I have been meaning to go for weeks, but I never seem to get out the door until 2 hours before they close. I hope to spend all day there Sunday. Anybody else going to KCIR?
Last edited by graebz28; 11-26-2008 at 04:54 PM.
02-03-2009, 04:04 PM
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Re: L31 E-tec hotcam breakin starts today
Update - Car is still running great getting about 15 mpg, which is pretty good seeing that I have been keeping it at high rpms doing open loop WB learns. Attached is a log from a cold start along with some slow runs up to 6000+ to tune the upper band. I originally was really low on VE there, so I bumped it up a lot and started working back down rather than running lean.
I have a few questions:
Does the logger log higher than 6375? Hard to tell where I am with the stock tach.
Why is my AFR so off at start up? I need to reset the IAC and mechanical idle screw. I was running as low as 750 in closed loop but it jumped around. I now keep it at 900, so I need to get the IAC steps closer to 0 at op temp idle. Compared to the very bottom of log, open loop idle is pretty dead on, but IAC is at 39.
Can I zero out the timing bias i.e. SA - Coolant Comp Bias SA, so that the timing tables are more accurate. Why are all the bias set to 9.84 (~10)? I added a couple column to start figuring out how SA is calculated.
I am working on making an excel template with some code to do color coding with the cells to shrink it down. I added color to the current one so that I can see AE PE DE more clearly and put some autofilters in. Unfortunately, I had to upload a csv due to size restrictions.
Other notes: I am still pulling timing out it seems. I got a Fluke heat gun and started measuring header temps, but don't really know how to interpret the results. It seems that #6 and #7 are hottest, reaching 700 after a few throttle stabs from idle.
Should I be worried about learning in severe cold temps? I will probably revisit when it warms up here.
Regarding CTS vs IAT/CTS, when would you choose one over the other. I have not seen much info on the latter.
Thanks again as always for everyones help. Please let me know if you see anything of concern in the log.
I have a few questions:
Does the logger log higher than 6375? Hard to tell where I am with the stock tach.
Why is my AFR so off at start up? I need to reset the IAC and mechanical idle screw. I was running as low as 750 in closed loop but it jumped around. I now keep it at 900, so I need to get the IAC steps closer to 0 at op temp idle. Compared to the very bottom of log, open loop idle is pretty dead on, but IAC is at 39.
Can I zero out the timing bias i.e. SA - Coolant Comp Bias SA, so that the timing tables are more accurate. Why are all the bias set to 9.84 (~10)? I added a couple column to start figuring out how SA is calculated.
I am working on making an excel template with some code to do color coding with the cells to shrink it down. I added color to the current one so that I can see AE PE DE more clearly and put some autofilters in. Unfortunately, I had to upload a csv due to size restrictions.
Other notes: I am still pulling timing out it seems. I got a Fluke heat gun and started measuring header temps, but don't really know how to interpret the results. It seems that #6 and #7 are hottest, reaching 700 after a few throttle stabs from idle.
Should I be worried about learning in severe cold temps? I will probably revisit when it warms up here.
Regarding CTS vs IAT/CTS, when would you choose one over the other. I have not seen much info on the latter.
Thanks again as always for everyones help. Please let me know if you see anything of concern in the log.
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