IroczInOz

Hey guys, I thought I would post up this thread for some interesting reading. The story is somewhat long but will shorten it. I and another mate have been helping a friend get his 383 Miniram tuned. His car was a fitted with a carby not long ago and the swap to the Miniram was done in the last month or so.

Anyway he has a cruise on this weekend, and last week he was away. So we could not get much datalogging done for the tune. He needed the car ready by the weekend so to be safe he booked it in to a Dyno Tune place. Anyway he sent me the results of the outcome.. I thought it would interest some folks on here on what actually gets done in such a Dyno Tune where they charge approximately $800 USD.

Anyway his starting BIN was SAUJPv3 with a few mods to the pumpshot and VE values guessed for the start. They ran that BIN 1st to get a baseline and had to end it short cause it was running LEAN at higher RPM. Before they shut it down it made 185kw (240hp) at rear wheels.

He sent me back a copy of the new BIN with the changes done at the dyno place. The dyno tuned BIN made 216.4Kw (280hp)

Here are the changes:

10/15/2007 07:23:52 Constant: Idle O2 Rich/Lean Slow Zero Error Lower changed from 0.56 Volts (0x80) to 0.00 Volts (0x00).
10/15/2007 07:24:02 Constant: Idle O2 Rich/Lean Slow Zero Error Upper changed from 0.60 Volts (0x88) to 0.00 Volts (0x00).
10/15/2007 07:25:45 Constant: Idle O2 Rich/Lean Slow Zero Error Lower changed from 0.56 Volts (0x80) to 0.00 Volts (0x00).
10/15/2007 07:25:51 Constant: Idle O2 Rich/Lean Slow Zero Error Upper changed from 0.60 Volts (0x88) to 0.00 Volts (0x00).
10/15/2007 07:25:57 Constant: Idle O2 Rich/Lean Threshold Fast changed from 0.60 Volts (0x88) to 0.00 Volts (0x00).
10/15/2007 07:26:02 Constant: Idle O2 Rich/Lean Threshold Fast Hysteresis changed from 0.05 Volts (0x0C) to 0.00 Volts (0x00).

10/11/2007 12:06:56 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Extended to 6400 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:07:40 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:08:08 Table: Volumetric Efficency Lower Table changed.
10/11/2007 12:09:55 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.

10/11/2007 12:13:02 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:14:29 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:14:59 Table: Loop Open % Change AFR Vs. MAP changed.
10/11/2007 12:16:02 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:16:20 Table: Loop Open % Change AFR Vs. MAP changed.
10/11/2007 12:18:19 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Extended to 6400 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:18:43 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Extended to 6400 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:19:17 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:19:51 Table: Volumetric Efficency Lower Table changed.
10/11/2007 12:21:10 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:21:34 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Extended to 6400 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:22:26 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Extended to 6400 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:22:45 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:23:34 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:26:10 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.
10/11/2007 12:32:51 Constant: Spark Advance Initial (Distributor Setting) changed from 5.98 Deg. Advance (0x11) to 8.09 Deg. Advance (0x17).
10/11/2007 12:35:49 Table: Enrich Power Spark Advance Vs. RPM changed.
10/12/2007 05:51:58 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:52:40 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:54:16 Table: Loop Open % Change AFR Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:57:04 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:57:13 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:59:41 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:59:43 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 05:59:47 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/12/2007 06:00:19 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/12/2007 06:01:27 Table: Enrich Accel Delta TPS Pulse Width Factor Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 06:01:47 Table: Enrich Accel Delta TPS Pulse Width Factor Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 06:02:39 Table: Enrich Accel Delta TPS Pulse Width Factor Vs. Temp. changed.
10/12/2007 06:02:42 Table: Enrich Accel Delta MAP Pulse Width Mult. Vs. Temp. changed.
10/14/2007 06:09:59 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/14/2007 06:10:25 Table: Enrich Startup Vs. Temp. changed.
10/14/2007 06:29:57 Constant: IAC Park Position changed from 160.00 Steps (0xA0) to 185.00 Steps (0xB9).
10/14/2007 06:31:16 Constant: IAC Throttle Follower Max. Steps In Drive changed from 230.00 Steps (0xE6) to 240.00 Steps (0xF0).
10/14/2007 06:31:37 Constant: Idle Engine Speed A/C On Added to Base changed from 12.50 RPM (0x01) to 50.00 RPM (0x04).
10/14/2007 06:35:41 Table: Enrich Accel Delta TPS Mult vs. Delta TPS changed.
10/14/2007 06:36:27 Table: Enrich Accel Delta MAP Pulse Width Mult. Vs. Delta MAP changed.
10/14/2007 06:37:30 Table: IAC Idle Steps vs. Temp. changed.
10/14/2007 06:38:13 Table: IAC Warm Park Position Vs. Temp. changed.
10/14/2007 06:38:42 Table: Idle Engine Speed Vs. Temp. changed.
10/14/2007 06:40:47 Table: Spark Advance Main changed.
10/14/2007 06:41:23 Table: Spark Advance Main changed.
10/14/2007 06:41:58 Table: Spark Advance Main changed.

10/15/2007 07:06:13 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Original to 5600 RPM changed.
10/15/2007 07:07:08 Table: Volumetric Efficency Upper Table Extended to 6400 RPM changed.
10/15/2007 07:09:37 Constant: BLM Enable Learn Min. Temp. changed from 44.75 Deg. C (0x71) to 74.75 Deg. C (0x99).
10/15/2007 07:11:23 Constant: IAC Park Position changed from 185.00 Steps (0xB9) to 200.00 Steps (0xC8).
10/15/2007 07:11:26 Constant: IAC Park Position changed from 185.00 Steps (0xB9) to 200.00 Steps (0xC8).
10/15/2007 07:11:44 Constant: IAC Throttle Follower Max. Steps changed from 231.00 Steps (0xE7) to 245.00 Steps (0xF5).
10/15/2007 07:11:44 Constant: IAC Throttle Follower Max. Steps changed from 231.00 Steps (0xE7) to 245.00 Steps (0xF5).
10/15/2007 07:11:57 Constant: IAC Throttle Follower Max. Steps In Drive changed from 240.00 Steps (0xF0) to 255.00 Steps (0xFF).
10/15/2007 07:12:03 Constant: IAC Throttle Follower Max. Steps In Drive changed from 240.00 Steps (0xF0) to 255.00 Steps (0xFF).
10/15/2007 07:12:53 Constant: Loop Closed Delay Timer Cold O2 Temp. changed from 120.00 Sec. (0x3C) to 194.00 Sec. (0x61).
10/15/2007 07:12:56 Constant: Loop Closed Delay Timer Cold O2 Temp. changed from 120.00 Sec. (0x3C) to 194.00 Sec. (0x61).
10/15/2007 07:13:21 Constant: Loop Closed Delay Timer Warm O2 Temp. changed from 90.00 Sec. (0x2D) to 126.00 Sec. (0x3F).
10/15/2007 07:13:28 Constant: Loop Closed Delay Timer Hot O2 Temp. changed from 20.00 Sec. (0x0A) to 40.00 Sec. (0x14).
10/15/2007 07:13:42 Constant: Loop Closed Enable Hot Temp. Threshold changed from 35.00 Deg. C (0x64) to 65.00 Deg. C (0x8C).
10/15/2007 07:13:58 Constant: Loop Closed Enable Min. Temp. changed from 20.00 Deg. C (0x50) to 55.25 Deg. C (0x7F).
10/15/2007 07:14:17 Constant: Loop Closed Timer Cold Temp. Threshold changed from 14.75 Deg. C (0x49) to 22.25 Deg. C (0x53).
10/15/2007 07:16:39 Table: Enrich Power Enable % TPS changed.
10/15/2007 07:17:02 Table: Enrich Power Change to AFR Vs. RPM changed.
10/15/2007 07:18:21 Table: Idle Engine Speed Vs. Temp. changed.

After going through the Tuned Bin and the starting BIN I gave them not much as been changed. Frankly the LOWER VE table has not been edited at all! The cars Idle is not the best. There is still a stumble under light throttle around the 2000-3000 rpm mark.
He told me that it seems the miniram is running out of steam around the 5000rpm mark. Where as it should pull stronger up there and beyond it.

The Spark table has not been edited much at all. Just a few changes maybe in 15 cells. The Upper VE table has been edited slightly nothing major really.

The pump shot values are all 1.37 in every cell.

I get the feeling that a lot of stuff was just done as a band aid fix. I will get him to take some datalogs and tune it the good old fashion way as many of the boys do it here. He has this Dyno Bin to get him out of trouble and into the cruise but I think we can do much better.

I have also attached the dyno graph of the results.

Does 280hp sound like a good number at the wheels from a 383 with big cam and worked motor? I would have expected bigger numbers...

Can someone please explain what purpose was the edits of the O2 rich/lean slow zero error for?

Anyway I thought this may interest some, looks like nothing better then doing it yourself if you can..

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I believe your assesment is correct.

Some things that concern me when looking at the log of changes:

The o2 tables are for idle control of BLM. Reducing the "UPPER, LOWER, & Threshold" values by 50 mV usually can help. Going to 0.00 I'm not sure if that is a good thing unless you are going OL all the time. Your idle may improve by bringing them back inline when you can play with it.

Adjusting the "Original" VE table to 5600 and the "Extended to 6400".
You use one or the other, not both.

Was the distributor moved when the bin was changed to 8* ?
The SAUJP can be too agressive for some combos. Reducing the whole table by 2* would get rid of some knocks if they were seen during the pulls.
Check it with a light so you know where it ended up.

Closed loop timers were increased.
I've always reduced the times to match when the o2 sensor begins to switch consistently. The Open loop time is when the engine will either like the tune or not. I like to get the BLMs working as soon as possible. On the bigger 383 and mods, it may not like closed loop so well though. Goes back to the idle o2 values above.
Closed loop warmup enables were increased probably for the same reason.
Just keeping it in OL until it is stable.
This thing could just be a real monster to tune and requires OL all the time.
If that is the case then the HP numbers are almost certainly low.

The chart shows 2nd gear.
I though the pulls should be done at 1:1 (usually 3rd) ?
Maybe the downshift at WOT gets in the way of doing that.

IMO the spark table in any bin is not at its peak for performance at every point for a specific combo. The AFR looks straight on the plot so I have to assume they tuned the fuel to the existing spark table and did not optimize the spark at each point. Just went lower where knocks occurred.
Something I've dreamed that the dyno guys do but maybe not.

Just my observations.
Curious to what other see too.

IroczInOz

Thanks for the heads up on some of those issues. The transmission is a TH 350 so not sure why it was not done in 3rd. The spark table was edited by a bit when we started off so max advance in the table is around 39 instead of the 46.

The CAM has big overlap which screws with the O2 readings at idle and makes it run richer then what it needs to be. Yeah I would have expected higher power numbers too. Maybe with time we can get this thing better.

So when using the extended VE tables to 6400rpm you should basically zero out the original to 5600? I was not aware that this could play any role having them the same.

IroczInOz

Just to add a little more here is the Upper VE table and Pumpshot table along with the IAC vs temp table.

To me that pumpshot table looks like a quick fix and not much time was taken to get that correct. VE table looks average too don't think much time was taken with that either.

And to top it off my mate is not happy, car runs super rich now, stalls at Idle when put into Gear. Does not like to be started when warm. And also has a stumble at low rpm when you get on it.

A lot to be desired when paying for a so called DYNO tune and paying big $$$. Looks like we will try and slowly tune his car by the information on here. I can see it coming out much better.

ben73

Without more engone specs, its hard to know how much it should be making, but a "383 ci miniram engines with a big cam" should be making more than 280hp at the tyres.
Note that the Dyno Dynamics dynos read lower than the American Mustang and DynoJet dynos.

Same old story... If you want something done right, you must do it yourself.

19doug90

on a dyno jet my 355 stealth ram, 180cc iron eagle heads that flow about 10 cfm better then stock, and a 224/230 cam

i made 275hp 315 ft lbs on a dynojet dyno

this was with electircal problems, lack of a vss running the motor rich and a horribly restrictive exhaust.
now that i have long tubes and all mandrel i expect with a good set of aluminum heads to be able to make power in the 375hp 350 ft lb range at the wheels

btw my dyno tune was garbage as well, just got the stuff from moates i need to program chips. the bin he leftin the car he barely modified from my tpi setup, all of the fueling falls off after 4400 rpms. yikes considering i make peak power at 6000

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I have done several AFR 195 383 miniram cars. 2 vettes and a camaro. All of them averaged about 380hp at the wheels. Cam will play a large part in that number. The vettes ran a TPiS 406X, and the camaro ran a Crane cam forget the specs. They changed many things but, I do not think they really aproached it from a systematic stand point.

Personally I always start at the VE tables.
TPS enrichment table
timing table
Back to VE tables
Back to TPS enrichment
VE idle tuning
min idle setting
Temperature related enrichments
Open loop vs close loop timers for large cams
A/F for large cams
back to VE table
back to timing
back to VE table.

Do a burn out!

IroczInOz

Well the CAM in the car is Edelbrock Torker-Plus

RPM RANGE: 2500-6500

Duration at 0.006" Lift: Intake: 292° Exhaust: 300°
Duration at 0.050" Lift: Intake: 232° Exhaust: 234°
Lift at Cam: Intake: 0.325" Exhaust: 0.325"
Lift at Valve: Intake: 0.488" Exhaust: 0.488"
Timing at 0.050" lift: Open Close
Intake: 10° BTDC 42° ABDC
Exhaust: 47° BBDC 7° ATDC
Centerlines: Lobe Separation - 108° Intake Centerline - 106°


Forged 383 Scat Stroker crank and rods with SpeedPro forged pistons
Performer RPM Alloy heads

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That is a huge difference 280 - 380hp.. Wonder what a DIY tune will get it to. Looks like a WB02 sensor is the go for the WOT fueling.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Well that cam is not doing you any favors, especially with those heads. I have worked with a couple engines that have used those heads. I have had the most luck using cams with an LSA of 110-114, durations at .050 less than 230, and lift at .050 around .515 at the valve.

Your working with a realatively small runner size in the head, for a 383. I think they are 180cc or 175cc. Don't get me wrong they will make plenty of power. I think 375 is easily attainable. Cam will be critical as well as tuning. With the smaller heads I have found that high lift works much better than duration. Also keeping overlap to a min also helps. My OPINION is that in a small runner head you need to work on the velocity of flow. If duration of the intake and exhaust event last to long, boundry layers will have time to form in the passages, causing things to slow down.

As for tuning, it is all DIY. It just depends on who is punching the keys and how knowledgeable they are. A WB is not absolutely necessary. I have tuned many a 730 with out one. It is a nice piece of data to have, especially if you now how to use it. A dyno is also a great tool to have, but once again not absolutely necessary.

I think people make tuning too complicated. Here is the short of it. Every engine has a given RPM band, if it runs up smoothly through that RPM band, then half the battle is won, if not you need to work on the rpm areas that are not smooth or week. You do that by changing the fuel mixture or timing. Once that is done, search for power.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

368RWHP AND 388RWTQ. With a 383 TF heads LPE219 cam. Shorties and converters. Tuned with the 411 ECM in about 30 minutes on the dyno. Cam specs 219/219 560/560 112

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

VE master is good for a quick rough-in ve tune when working on a new combo. I don't know why they didn't start with that to rough-in the ve tables, and then nail-down the a/e and idle stuff?

IroczInOz

I think they just did a rough quick job and added fuel everywhere to combat the certain lean spots. That fixed the lean problem in the areas but put extra unwanted fuel everywhere else. At IDLE the IAC is at 200 steps and does not move. He is going back to them to fix it up and do a better job because the money he paid he deserves a lot better!