carls1982z

I RECENTLY moved most of my ve2 fuel table to my ve1 table.--right after that it was way to lean. So i richened it up to get my blm down from 160 to 139 approx. - Now i see that im pushing pretty high in my ve1 table [numbers] and still need to richen it up some. and im already seeing 98 #s in alot of map/rpm cells. --Should i try raising my BPW ????????---OR IS THERE something else that may need adj. --- im a crossfire with 7747 ecm and prominator. 355 eng and 18 psi fuel, with stock injectors. ---I come up with that i need 103 BPW, --Should i raise it . heres my ve 2 table now 1.95
1.17
2.34
6.64
10.16
12.50
13.67
14.45
16.02
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
5.08
24.61

carls1982z

and the ve1 table 76.17 97.27 99.61 99.61 99.61 99.61 99.61 99.61
69.14 89.45 93.36 96.48 99.61 99.61 99.61 97.66
60.55 80.47 83.59 87.11 89.84 94.14 98.05 83.98
53.52 72.27 76.17 79.69 80.86 85.55 91.02 73.83
44.53 65.63 67.58 71.48 72.27 77.73 84.38 65.63
43.75 61.72 62.89 65.63 64.84 70.31 76.95 60.55
32.81 52.34 53.13 57.03 57.42 64.84 70.70 55.08
25.00 42.58 46.48 50.39 51.17 57.42 63.67 50.00
19.53 36.72 40.63 43.36 45.31 50.78 57.03 43.36

carls1982z

Anyone have opin, on my ve1 cells being high and still need to richen VEH ???--- i was told [not here] to lower B.P.W. ??? thats leaning right ?? wouldnt i raise bpw to get it richer so as to lower my cell #s in my ve1 table ?? -OR am i sleeping here. LOL, THANKS

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Carl: I posted same question last year and maybe this year. That is exactly what I had to do to deal with with EBL VE tables. You are non-EBL but the situation may be similar. I asked the question as to whether that is permissable. If you are certain there are no vac leaks causing enleanment or a faulty fuel pump or you are certain you have the injectors you think you have I see no harm. I am waaaayyyy over on BPC to get the 3000-3200 rpms 40-70 MAP under 100. I dont understand why I needed to do that(fudge BPC) but had no other choice.

Anyone know why some engines run over 100 on VE?

Sean82vet

I am not an expert here but...
Do you know your exact fuel pressure? this is required for the BPW calculation. how about the flow rate of your injectors?

Sometimes you need to adjust your bpw to fool your engine to give it what it needs.
Sometimes you need bigger injectors.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

HERE IS A HANDY CALC FOR BPC AND INJECTOR FLOW:

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/ben_...ctorsizing.xls

it also gives you HP supported.

I believe Carl has the BPC accurrately calc'd from earlier posts.

Does anyone know why the sometimes the VE tables go over 100 if BPC is accurrate? My case they are way over 100 as a large increase in BPC was required. In my case they are only over 100 at 2800-3200 and 30-70 map.

Sean82vet

Your car is telling you that it needs more fuel. You have increased your ve tables until you are over 100%.
Your choices are:
change the BPW to fool the engine
Raise fuel pressure - recalculate BPW
install new injectors that flow more fuel - recalculate BPW

your car thinks it needs more fuel, go ahead and give it what it wants.

read this, what you are looking for is about page three.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...free-tune.html

carls1982z

im a 355 eng, stock crossfire 82 injectors from 350 vett.--im at 18.5 psi and 106 as of now BPW.---IM GOING TO raise it to 22, and recalculate. My orig 20 psi was set for 99 bpw, then i had lowered fuel to 18.5, and set bpw to 103.----Then in my tune i always had big jumps in my BLM Readings in which it was hard to get them close.-example is crusin in city they may be 118 to 133.-and get on high way steady speed and they slowly climb to 144 ?? --WHEN i went from old 305 eng to 350 i bought one fuel injector [aftermarket] for front t/body, and a used complete 350 vett body for rear., and varified the rear injector is a 350 vett crossfire.--Maybe the after market is crap ??and is not at its correct lbs rating, ????---- i didnt noticed the lean problem till i moved ve 2 to ve 1.-----ill raise fuel now to 22 and set my BPW to 98.5specs and see what happens-----thanks for the help here guys, as im pretty new to diy tuning.-------------- By the way how the heck do i get my specs in the blue spots in the calculator ???? cant figure out.--- mine that was sent to me a year ago ,all i do is left click and add my #, the one hear i cant get them to go in--- but my table never showed after what my new #s would support as to horse power. --- im terrible with p.c.

carls1982z

ok, i reset my fuel pressure to 22 lbs, and used the calculator to set bpw, but lied and said i had 20 psi.---blm are more in range and i got to lower the ve 1 table to get rid of high #s.-------car loves fuel pressure. ---but my orig problem in tune arrise up.------bad decell surge --I was told i think here to change my DFCO SETTINGS ???-- is this raise ?? -im using tuner pro and 7747 ecm, thier listed as DFCO MIN RPM, AND MAX.-- I think min is at 1000, and max at 1500.---Also theres dfco map--- raise these to ???????

Sean82vet

Ronny,

I now understand your question; it took me all night to figure out.
I believe I have the answer you are looking for.

The Bpc is calculated from engine volume and fuel flow.
The Bpc does not take into account your cam size or intake valve size. In your case the intake lobe and valve have let in X amount of fuel and air. Your car has determined that it needs more fuel to burn all the air.
If you have total ve’s that are more than 100% the computer will truncate them to 100%.

I would suggest that you raise your fuel pressure.
I would also suggest that you restore the stock values in ve1 and ve2 tables and adjust your BPC until the mid range reads a little rich, then adjust the ve’s to suite.

Note: This is suggested only because your engine is far from stock.
Watch your injector duty cycle

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Sean says:

The Bpc is calculated from engine volume and fuel flow.
The Bpc does not take into account your cam size or intake valve size. In your case the intake lobe and valve have let in X amount of fuel and air. Your car has determined that it needs more fuel to burn all the air.
If you have total ve’s that are more than 100% the computer will truncate them to 100%.

Ok. that is understandable. larger cam and heads affect intake flow requiring more fuel. In my case I have adequate fueling with 80 lbs inj's and 24 lbs FP. DC is no where near 95% at the area where the 100 shows in VE. Might be the VE tables need to accomodate 150%? this seems to be where the engine wakes up(2800 rpms). Not sure if that is peak TQ area? But may be where the engine is most efficient(VE)?

adding more FP requires a smaller BPC. that make matter worse as far as getting values under 100. Certainly more FP is needed to keep DC under 100%as well as getting a reasonably safe A/F at higher RPMs in PE.

I have an alternative in that I can run my VAFPR and command any BPC I feel appropriate in table. Not saying that is a smart thing to do but that opportunity exists for me and should affect the VE tables as well as control idle better. Not sure what will happen to those areas I currently at 100.

Sean82vet

You should not need ve’s over 100%
What is your cam spec and engine combo?

Try this (you may like it) raise your fuel pressure to 30psi, do not change anything in the prom.
Log your blm before and after

Then try a BPC of 120
Log your blm before and after

I think you have a beast of an engine and may need more injector.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

previous crossfire vette. 350 cid, xram, 2.0 TB's, 454 injectors, edel rpm aluminum 64 cc heads, crame 2040 cam 210/216 @.05, crane roller rockers, ceramic hedman 1 5/8 headers, dual exhaust/crossover, hooker aero chambers, 7747. Innovative WB.
CHANGES COMPLETED 10/13/2004:
7.4L TB on Holley TBI manifold(Projection), Summit AC with K & N, Aeromotive FP reg, Comp Cams 224/230 @.05 114 LSA, Innovative input of tps/rpm/map data.
09/2005 fresh paint(red of course)
08/16/2006 added Prominator- 8746 ECU with EBL, IAT sensor being added following week.

I have not looked at my logs to confirm but i will guess my DC in those VE cells that are 100 is around 50%. So the fueling is more than adequate. WB shows around 14.5/1 as it is in CL cruising in 4 of 5 gears at say 80mph. If I invoke AE at that 2800 rpm and say 60 MAP area I am still under 100% DC. My WB was out of action past month but when it was functional I think at 5500rpms in PE I was around 96% or so commanded to 12.5/1 A/F. Now WB is working again and will run WOT and see how it looks. As I stated the VAFPR is going to be looked at as well.

Sean82vet

I think you know much more than me in this regard.

I would feel better if you were to humor me and raise your bpc by about 10-15 and log your blm. I *believe* that you will see your ve drop to less than 100%

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have done that.

I think i started with an accurrate calc at around 92 BPC day one of install of EBL. VE was pegged at 100 as stated in that rpms area on first WU datalog. I upped it 10 to like 102. Have done that several times and now at 142. some of the 100 dropped to say 90 and a few stayed at 100. I datalog about twice a week. I ran a WU last night after I upped the BPC another 2 and will look at this PM.

Sean82vet

we would all agree that rasing the ve's adds more fuel, right?
If you are at 142 bpc with 80#injectors and 24psi of fuel and still get over 100% ve, then you have a real monster of an engine.
unfortunatly you still need more fuel, the 100% ve tells us this.
At this point I would suspect that your fuel pump has trouble keeping up, or your psi guage is out to lunch on your fuel pressure.

Sean82vet

rbob, talks about your issue here
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...5ci-first.html

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I dont believe there is much need for fuel at 2800 rpms at 50 map in CL as no load on engine.

I just looked at my datalog just now from this AM. 52% DC at 2800 rpms CL at 60 MAP. 4.2 mSec. that is exactly where i am at 100 in VE table. Plenty of gas available. I also looked at a moderate PE run at a pedal to floor up to 5000 rpms. DC is 64% 4.5 mSec. Still plenty of fuel.

I really dont think the fuel pump or regulator are defective.

I am beginning to think it just needs much more fuel in VE and CL right there as opposed to say 2400 rpms at same MAP.

I can flow a lot of gas in AE(per WB) if I wish so that too suppports fueling adequate.

Sean82vet

you've got me

what is your blm and int at 2800rpm - 60 Map?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Here in WIS as well as Canada it can be 90F one day and 40F the next.
this cool morn i was running about 130 BLM and on a warm humid day I think I am around 125. Whats Up corrects for me any cell if I save the log.

carls1982z

Hey guys, Im going to reset my ve1 and ve2 tables close to a stock bin and start over.---when i moved every thing from ve2 to ve1 everything went haywire, LOL.---since im a crossfire, im not sure which bin but will for now go off the ASDU BIN, and maybe in there at ve2 ill just lower the upper rpm as it goes near 6400. ---And ill set BPW TO 100. and retry. Im sure the asdu bin at ve1 will need to be leaner but ill find out soon here.---And one other question, can i do my adjustments just in ve1, ????? orig if i didnt keep ve2 very smooth you could feel it real good in driving veh.--Car seems very touchy to fuel adjustments. ---ill let ya no how i make out, and thanks for all the imput.

Sean82vet

Carl
what is your cam specs? Motor combo?
why are you running 18psi fuel?

I can send you my bin (for testing only)
I started from the ASDZ bin - 5.7l auto

Carl your posts are hard to read, you need to slow down a little bit.

carls1982z

my eng is a 355, with pro lightning cast heads, approx 9;3 compression, cam is a comp, extrem energy, and i think it had about 480 lift [dont have all spec here -at work ]-ported crossfire intake, stock size t/bodys, eldebrock tubulars, with 3" flow master exaust, cat conv is visually there, 1.5 roller tip rockers,-------The reason i ran 20 psi fuel is i was afraid i would go lean under high rpm/load, with the sock injectors , so i bump it to 20 psi.-Im sure i could go with 18 psi but played it safe with 20.-------Sean, i would love to see, or try your bin, and i could send mine if you of others wanted to see it.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

what platform does ASDU represent?

Carl: Did you obtain off the CF forum Bin library for 7747? that is where I got my .bin from for 7747.

I will assume .bin is a 350 CID truck with auto transmission with 7747 ECU?

You need to do your VE adjustments in both tables. When I ran 7747 I too moved all the table into VE1. I recall now I moved all but left 5 in those cells i moved. dont ask why i just followed grumpy advise. then i just changed VE1 and left 2 with 5.

As a point of interest when I got the VE tables-BLM in line and commanded 12.5 PE on dyno it ran 12.3 and 11.9/1 without a WB to tune. Maybe just lucky? So no concern of engine running lean if you over compensated on fuel.

Sean82vet

Carl
are you auto or standard?
Can you post your bin so Ronny can have a look as well?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

My company at office will block it.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

are your 99+ in VE table all a result of learned BLM?

If so what row on RPMs do they appear. I forget how the 7747 shows VE1. Maybe they are 2800 and 3200 rows?

If so that was my problem as well. I would add 10 to the BPC at your next datalog.

Stock injectors? you mean 65 lbs(crossfire 350 cid)?

carls1982z

So what do mean by platform ?--and yes i got it from a member there,[bin].- I just now got my wide ban hooked up finally.-- and right after start it showed major lean [ 17.0 ] on accelleration and holding rpm around 1800.--- im running the asdu fuel tables now. I see it lean so i ignored the calculator for BPW and at 20 psi i have it at 110, bpw. to get it richer.---BUT in wnaldl it says its rich ???????????? ---holding rpm steady at say 1800 it surges like lean or vacumm leak-----HEY can i email you the bin to look at. ?? not good with pc, so as im not sure how to post it here.

carls1982z

sean sent me a bin to try, and how to set bpw in gear at temp ---i got blm at 125. which turns out to be a bpw of 99.- rightr where calculator said.----i compared my bin to his to see why my bin had haywire blm 110 to 140? only thiong i saw was pe spark, so i set mine to 0 and rechecked and now my blm in my bin are coming in. --why the wild crazy blm 110 to 145 ???? and now ok ????

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: So what do mean by platform ?--

Platform is like a class of GM cars. F body Camaro-FireB and B body I think is Caprice. the trucks as in 7747 ECU, most likely have platforms as well. I think the 7747 bins we used are 350 cid with auto trans in a 1/2 ton. If stick i would suggest a manual .bin.

Quote: and right after start it showed major lean [ 17.0 ] on accelleration

if you are trying to establish the VE tables disregard data on accelleration. it gives you false VE info on datalog. once the VE tables are lookin good and no VE cells over 100(yes you may need to fudge BPC) then you can use the WB to help you with the AE routines. lets get the VE cells nailed and then lets work on AE. if the 17/1 is an AE event obviously you need to add AE fuel. PE is last. also do you recalibrate the WB periodically?

I would be more than happy to look at the .bin but honestly dont see what purpose it would serve.

you state the WB shows lean yet winALDL shows rich? I agree that is a big problem and a big contradiction. is it possible the WB shows say a cell right next to the cell winALDL is looking at? IOW possibly they are both correct?

when i thought my VEtables were all lean I used the tool devise to move entire table richer by using a multiplier of say 1.05. much easier to work rich to lean that vice versa.

Vac leak? I too had that thought for my car. I spent an hour with carb spray all over manifold and TB to manifold. no change. fortunately i had a steady idle when i did test. also make sure the heeaders dont leak expecially at the collector to ext flange. that leak i confirmed a while back and fixed.

carls1982z

Hey ronny and everyone.----the wild and crazy blm are gone like i had recently posted in my bin as to the one sean sent and BPW IS good and at what calculator said it should be. [99]----- I now can work on my blm and get in line and get some where in my tune.-----why in my bin they were going haywire is ???????? were stable after i set p,e. spark to 0 in table. like the bin sean sent.----im going to now read and tune blm.-----Should i aim for 128 as close as possable or is a little lower ok ??? Seems popping in exaust is going away as get very close to 128. [ unburnt fuel ? ]

Sean82vet

Carl
I used the stock asdz bin as a starting point.

I think your starter bin had some issues

Use the email instructions that I sent you.
make sure you have good data before your makes changes to the ve

aim for blm of 122-128, richer is better.

you need rich to do the timing

carls1982z

So sean and everyone.- After i run veh in 1st gear at 1200 up 3200 and note, and adjust my blm's , where do i go from there. [next step]-- [may sound stupid for you tuners lol ]-- but i dont want to get it wrong and need a refresher coarse. - do i then go to 2nd gear ? and do the same.[proubly get same map] or go and drive like in city trafic and record and read and adj.---- Just want to get it right the first time. thanks alot.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

If you have the ample time to datalog i would lock the car in gear and try and to keep it at a specific rpm for say 15 seconds. first do in neutral from say 800 rpms up in increments of 200 to maybe 2400 rpms. then 1st of three. then lock 2nd of three. and finally third of three. run all rpms as high as you feel comfortable. i dont think your PE will come in till 70% on stock bin so you should not be in PE. nor do you want to be. hopefully the roads are level. avoid AE as it will pollute the BLMs. when you look at winALDL you will see some cells you missed. interpolate those.

i just ran my WB today as it was just repaired last week and did not really log with it much. i did not get any hits at 2800 and 3000 rpms for past two weeks logging with NB. WB shows at 2800 rpms around 120 BLM and same at 3000 this morn. my VE tables there were 99 and 100. this is good news as now i have my BPC adequately high where it will pull some fuel there. now this PM will log 3200 and 3400 rpms and see how it looks there.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

If you have the ample time to datalog i would lock the car in gear and try and to keep it at a specific rpm for say 15 seconds. first do in neutral from say 800 rpms up in increments of 200 to maybe 2400 rpms. then 1st of three. then lock 2nd of three. and finally third of three. run all rpms as high as you feel comfortable. i dont think your PE will come in till 70% on stock bin so you should not be in PE. nor do you want to be. hopefully the roads are level. avoid AE as it will pollute the BLMs. when you look at winALDL you will see some cells you missed. interpolate those.

i just ran my WB today as it was just repaired last week and did not really log with it much. i did not get any hits at 2800 and 3000 rpms for past two weeks logging with NB. WB shows at 2800 rpms around 120 BLM and same at 3000 this morn. my VE tables there were 99 and 100. this is good news as now i have my BPC adequately high where it will pull some fuel there. now this PM will log 3200 and 3400 rpms and see how it looks there.

Sean82vet

once you get the flat road work done for all gears and your blm is happy, you will need to find a long hill. Drive up and down the hill in 1st, then 2nd, etc..

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Sean's idea is a good one to populate the higher MAP areas. the load on engine will push the MAP higher for same RPM. there may be an initial onset of AE-MAP but it will leave and wash out.

carls1982z

I think im chasing a bug. !! ---came home today and its same temp here tonight. Car all of a sudden has alot of surge at idle [more than it had] and i had not change an ything except blm in low map with car in first gear and didnt get any blm above 128----took back out and recheck again in low gear, and at 1600 rpm it was 127 and then started that rappid climb thing again. ???[oh no] getting frustrated.----i just went and reload seans bin to start again as i had not gone to much in adj but ??- Seems i might have possable vacuum leak or exaust ??????????----also with seans bin alot of spark knocks still present.----mayby get rid of copper header gasket or retry same type, or replace two band clamps i have at forward part of exaust ????-------im going to do log now of blm in city driving if anyone wants to see, it.- and the one i did at 1st gear------------------UPDATE, [WEND]-Had to make a 40 mile trip to doc, and ran wnaldl while going there and see that BLM readings were 128 [wide latest] while in highway cruise at 60-65 mph.--Hit city traffic and noted blm at low map/rpm.-MY QUESTION-WHEN loged blm in first gear at diff rpms they show down near 120 mostly, but after that highway run and go to slower speed and hit thos same rpm/map thier 128 t0 130.--is this a problem or are they saying i should leave thos 120 readings in low gear alone ?? i orig tried leaning [little] but car started same issue's surging bad.-------Sorry for the long one guys.

Sean82vet

My car may have less compression than yours. Please send me your spark counts from winaldl.
You may have to start form a stock ASDZ main spark table.

You are getting poor data (or not enouph data) from winaldl for your BLM.
you should try using the wide average for your ve corrections.

If your highway numbers are good and you are below the throttle level for PE then it seems that making some progress here. The reason for the 128 on the highway is because your are getting enouph data in those cells to make the correct changes to your ve in those cells.