View Poll Results: Which wideband should I buy?
Zeitronix
8
47.06%
lm1
4
23.53%
lc1
5
29.41%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll
WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
04-20-2007, 09:20 PM
#1
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Well I have about 300 in the savings account and I've decided to put it towards a wideband... But which one? I really like the zeitronix, it's cheaper then the lm1, smaller and comes with options for an egt sensor, 3.5 bar map sensor (50 psi) and an alarm trigger as well as nb switching point. the zeitronix with the egt sensor is the same price as the lm1. I've heard bad things about the lc1 and lm1's durability. I like the lc1 for it's price but I'm worried that its the bare minimum.
Anybody have any onpinions?
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm $279
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php $349
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php $200
Anybody have any onpinions?
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm $279
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php $349
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php $200
Last edited by Blazin4x4; 04-20-2007 at 09:30 PM.
04-20-2007, 10:16 PM
#2
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Car: 2010 Camaro 2SS, 1994 Chevy Blazer
Engine: 6.2L, 355TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 posi, 3.73
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
I have used both the Innovate models, and they work quite well. But, I really like the looks of the Zeitronix unit. It has alot of stuff included that is bought seperately on the Innovate system. Just for reference, some of the super accurate Widebands are $2K and up. One question I had about the Zeitronix is does it auto calibrate for each new sensor like the Innovate?
04-20-2007, 10:43 PM
#3
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
I didn't see anything but I'm a little suspicious of the whole auto calibrate thing... how can it tell the condition of the sensor? Same with altitude?
04-21-2007, 05:49 PM
#4
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Car: 2010 Camaro 2SS, 1994 Chevy Blazer
Engine: 6.2L, 355TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 posi, 3.73
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
"
If you connected a LED to the calibration button, you will at first see the LED blink slowly and
steadily. If it blinks for a fixed number of pulses, then switches off for 2 seconds and then repeats,
you have an error code. See Appendixfor details.
Slow and steady blinking indicates that the sensor is warming up to its optimum operating
temperature. The warm-up period will last for about 30 seconds for a cold sensor, depending on
the sensor type used.
After the sensor is warmed up the meter automatically calibrates the sensor heater controller to
the particular sensor. During this 20-second period the LC-1 collects and calculates sensor
specific data required to quickly reach operating temperature in the future. After the first time use
the meter will use these values to regulate the sensor's temperature. During the heater calibration
the optional LED will blink fast and steady.
After that period the LC-1 will automatically perform a free air calibration. During this 2 second
period a connected LED will go off. The LC-1 will now calibrate itself by using air as a reference
gas with known oxygen content.
After the free air calibration is finished the LED should light up steady and continuously,
indicating correct operation of the LC-1."
If the correct temp of the sensor is not maintained, it will not be accurate.
So it is very important on how well the wideband controller can adapt to each sensor. Thus the auto-calibrate is actually learning each new sensor's
slight diff in the way they heat. At least that is what I learned at EFI school.
I am doing more research on how the Zeitronix actually controls the sensor, because I like it the best so far.
Later, Randy
steadily. If it blinks for a fixed number of pulses, then switches off for 2 seconds and then repeats,
you have an error code. See Appendixfor details.
Slow and steady blinking indicates that the sensor is warming up to its optimum operating
temperature. The warm-up period will last for about 30 seconds for a cold sensor, depending on
the sensor type used.
After the sensor is warmed up the meter automatically calibrates the sensor heater controller to
the particular sensor. During this 20-second period the LC-1 collects and calculates sensor
specific data required to quickly reach operating temperature in the future. After the first time use
the meter will use these values to regulate the sensor's temperature. During the heater calibration
the optional LED will blink fast and steady.
After that period the LC-1 will automatically perform a free air calibration. During this 2 second
period a connected LED will go off. The LC-1 will now calibrate itself by using air as a reference
gas with known oxygen content.
After the free air calibration is finished the LED should light up steady and continuously,
indicating correct operation of the LC-1."
If the correct temp of the sensor is not maintained, it will not be accurate.
So it is very important on how well the wideband controller can adapt to each sensor. Thus the auto-calibrate is actually learning each new sensor's
slight diff in the way they heat. At least that is what I learned at EFI school.
I am doing more research on how the Zeitronix actually controls the sensor, because I like it the best so far.
Later, Randy
04-22-2007, 12:22 PM
#5
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
wow... thats a trip... one more question though. How does it get a "free air sample" when it's inside of the exhaust pipe of a running motor?
I'm still a little skeptical, probably because I want the zeitronix though. I just hope it's accurate.
I'm still a little skeptical, probably because I want the zeitronix though. I just hope it's accurate.
04-22-2007, 06:57 PM
#6
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Car: 2010 Camaro 2SS, 1994 Chevy Blazer
Engine: 6.2L, 355TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 posi, 3.73
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Apparently the Innovate must be calibrated before installing the sensor in the exhaust.
04-22-2007, 07:22 PM
#7
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Car: 84 Z28 H.O. w/Megasquirt II
Engine: semi-stock L69
Transmission: T-5 non W/C
Axle/Gears: 3.73 open
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Yes, to "properly" calibrate lc-1(that's what I got), you need to take it out of the exhaust pipe or let your car sit outside the garage for 24 hours or more.
You COULD kill your fuel while traveling at speed. This will pump fresh enough air through the exhaust very quickly and you could hit the recalibrate button. 2-4 second calibration later, restore fueling and your golden. It's a little tricky, but it can be done on the fly. Your at running voltage for this one, so I think it's the most accurate.
Or, something a bit easier. Oh, and your parked for this one. Unplug your injectors(or carb equivilent), hold the throttle open, and run the starter for 8-10 seconds. That should work just as well a removing it from the pipe. Just don't run the starter AND calibrate at the same time. The voltage draw of the starter running will skew your calibration due to lower supply voltage.
Unless your planning on running WideBand O2s on more than one vehicle, I don't see the reason for more than just the basics. I mean, I'm running a lc-1, and it has served my daily driven needs wonderfully. Unless your racing for money at the track or running a really hopped up motor, the lc-1 can be quite reliable when used properly.
You COULD kill your fuel while traveling at speed. This will pump fresh enough air through the exhaust very quickly and you could hit the recalibrate button. 2-4 second calibration later, restore fueling and your golden. It's a little tricky, but it can be done on the fly. Your at running voltage for this one, so I think it's the most accurate.
Or, something a bit easier. Oh, and your parked for this one. Unplug your injectors(or carb equivilent), hold the throttle open, and run the starter for 8-10 seconds. That should work just as well a removing it from the pipe. Just don't run the starter AND calibrate at the same time. The voltage draw of the starter running will skew your calibration due to lower supply voltage.
Unless your planning on running WideBand O2s on more than one vehicle, I don't see the reason for more than just the basics. I mean, I'm running a lc-1, and it has served my daily driven needs wonderfully. Unless your racing for money at the track or running a really hopped up motor, the lc-1 can be quite reliable when used properly.
Last edited by pizza_guy; 04-22-2007 at 07:35 PM.
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04-24-2007, 07:50 PM
#8
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
So What exactly breaks/fails on the innovative stuff? I've heard people say they had to send em back and get new ones but what breaks?
04-25-2007, 08:56 PM
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Car: 1990 Chevy 454SS
Engine: 454
Transmission: TH400
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
I have the ZT-2. Pleased with it. Been running it for about 2 years. Still on the original oxy sensor, using the NB and WB output to the EBL.
I did have to send it back and get an internal fuse replaced. My fault. Burned the sensor harness up breaking in a new cam. New ones are supposed to have a reset breaker inside, instead of the non-user replacable fuse. 25$ to get the fuse replaced with the breaker. 12$ or so for the new harness.
Been working fine ever since that.
just my .02$ worth.
I did have to send it back and get an internal fuse replaced. My fault. Burned the sensor harness up breaking in a new cam. New ones are supposed to have a reset breaker inside, instead of the non-user replacable fuse. 25$ to get the fuse replaced with the breaker. 12$ or so for the new harness.
Been working fine ever since that.
just my .02$ worth.
04-25-2007, 09:23 PM
#10
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Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
I have the ZT-2. Pleased with it. Been running it for about 2 years. Still on the original oxy sensor, using the NB and WB output to the EBL.
I did have to send it back and get an internal fuse replaced. My fault. Burned the sensor harness up breaking in a new cam. New ones are supposed to have a reset breaker inside, instead of the non-user replacable fuse. 25$ to get the fuse replaced with the breaker. 12$ or so for the new harness.
Been working fine ever since that.
just my .02$ worth.
I did have to send it back and get an internal fuse replaced. My fault. Burned the sensor harness up breaking in a new cam. New ones are supposed to have a reset breaker inside, instead of the non-user replacable fuse. 25$ to get the fuse replaced with the breaker. 12$ or so for the new harness.
Been working fine ever since that.
just my .02$ worth.
04-26-2007, 10:36 PM
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Car: 91 Camaro
Engine: 3.1...not hardly stock
Transmission: 700r4....not stock either
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
how did you burn up the sensor harness during break in? was it laying on a header or something?
04-27-2007, 08:36 AM
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Car: 1990 Chevy 454SS
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Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Its re-routed more better now.
04-28-2007, 04:28 PM
#13
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Hold on... can I even run the lc1 or lm1 with my 7747? I was reading something that said it was for obd II systems.
04-28-2007, 05:42 PM
#14
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Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
I own a Zeitronix. It started acting up recently. The O2 at idle indicates 14.7:1. At any throttle setting above idle it goes up to 20.0:1. What gives? Maybe the O2 sensor is shot. I haven't had time to T/S it. All in all it is a good unit. I'm impressed with the options in such an economical kit. I set mine up to read O2, EGT, TPS and, RPM.
04-28-2007, 07:17 PM
#15
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Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
The ZT-2 needs to have the unit grounded properly or it will get flaky. Read the instructions. I think its the brown wire needs to go to ground.
04-28-2007, 07:40 PM
#16
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Another question on the lc1...
So you can't read afr vz rpm unless you buy a 100 dollar rpm converter?
So you can't read afr vz rpm unless you buy a 100 dollar rpm converter?
04-29-2007, 09:20 AM
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Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
So, what all do I need for the WB setup? How does it hook in to the EBL?
Wheres the cheapest to buy? I guess I am a little confused with the equipment. Is it just like the 3 wire narrow band? (switched 12v, ground, data)
----------
Poll results say Zeitronix is the most popular.
Just read the instructions, seems straightforward. Seems a little easier to use than the LC-1/LM-1
Wheres the cheapest to buy? I guess I am a little confused with the equipment. Is it just like the 3 wire narrow band? (switched 12v, ground, data)
----------
Poll results say Zeitronix is the most popular.
Just read the instructions, seems straightforward. Seems a little easier to use than the LC-1/LM-1
Last edited by 91chevz71; 04-29-2007 at 09:37 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
04-29-2007, 10:55 AM
#18
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Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Yeah, I know about grounds. I've been an avionics tech on airplanes for 32 years. I originally grounded it good. But I need to take some time to troubleshoot it. It just hasn't been a priority lately.
04-29-2007, 11:46 PM
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Car: 91 Camaro RS Convertible
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 5-Speed
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
I've been running the LC1 for a season and it has worked out great. You are correct in saying you can't plot AFR vs. RPM without their converter. BUT, the real benefit comes if you're running the EBL (which you should be with any hopped up TBI motor) because you can run the LC1 directly into the EBL and record its output along with all other readings and do VE learns based on the WB. It's a beautiful thing, but if I didn't have EBL I would most likely not get the LC1. My thoughts on it
05-03-2007, 01:10 AM
#20
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Car: 1988 Chevy silverado K5
Engine: 350 bored .030, crane cams hyd bluprint l-79 cam 447 lift 272 dur, camel hump heads port and polished 1.94 1.50, afterburner headers and y pipe, holley 670 cfm tbi, holley projection dual plane manifold, accel high pressure fuel pump, 3 inch exhaust
Transmission: 700 r4 with corvette servo and shift kit.
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Sooooo can I run the lc1 with my 7747?
I really can't afford 500 for the ebl and a wb at the moment hence my problem.
I really can't afford 500 for the ebl and a wb at the moment hence my problem.
05-03-2007, 08:52 AM
#21
Supreme Member
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Blazin,
As Jeremy said, any WB should be hooked up with the EBL. The data rate for the 7747 is about 1 frame/1.2sec. My ZT-2 will spit out 35frames/sec. Particularly in the case of WOT operation, which is where a WB shines, the 7747 will lose most or all of the data. So I basically used the WB output with MAP, RPM and AFR to tune in O/L. Having EBL allows me to see the WB readings that are connected to all the other ECM events in real time. Bite the bullet, and buy the EBL. At $3.00+ a gallon, you'll save the money just in the gas you use for tuning.
As Jeremy said, any WB should be hooked up with the EBL. The data rate for the 7747 is about 1 frame/1.2sec. My ZT-2 will spit out 35frames/sec. Particularly in the case of WOT operation, which is where a WB shines, the 7747 will lose most or all of the data. So I basically used the WB output with MAP, RPM and AFR to tune in O/L. Having EBL allows me to see the WB readings that are connected to all the other ECM events in real time. Bite the bullet, and buy the EBL. At $3.00+ a gallon, you'll save the money just in the gas you use for tuning.
05-03-2007, 01:56 PM
#22
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Blazin: The ECU ,in your case a 7747, has nothing to do with the LC1 or LM1. In fact I bet there are as many carb users as EFI. it is a stand alone system that records A/F. Need not have any interaction with ECU. I have the LM-1 with the optional LMA2. my WB logs show A/F in say .10 second intervals along with RPM-TPS-MAP. I think most valuable is the TPS as a reference to note when the AE event occurs. You can patch the WB data into the ECU during a VE learn with EBL although I have not yet done so. also i believe you can do same but still retain Learn off of NB02. That i will do soon. Innovate has a forum to help you get the WB set up and answer any tuning or use questions.
My issue with my WB and this applies to possibly all WB is the sensor. My car destroys them way too fast. Last one lasted 3 months. I think my exhaust gas is over 950 deg(improper tune?) which is the max the sensor will tolerate. OR possibly my sensor starts at engine run and that may be too early so condensation hits it and its kaput. that is my WB state today kaput. also i use a bung extender(sounds kinky right?) and recommend it to pull it sensor a ways out of ext stream.
My issue with my WB and this applies to possibly all WB is the sensor. My car destroys them way too fast. Last one lasted 3 months. I think my exhaust gas is over 950 deg(improper tune?) which is the max the sensor will tolerate. OR possibly my sensor starts at engine run and that may be too early so condensation hits it and its kaput. that is my WB state today kaput. also i use a bung extender(sounds kinky right?) and recommend it to pull it sensor a ways out of ext stream.
05-03-2007, 08:57 PM
#23
Senior Member
Re: WB choices... lc1, lm1, or zeitronix?
Blazin: The ECU ,in your case a 7747, has nothing to do with the LC1 or LM1. In fact I bet there are as many carb users as EFI. it is a stand alone system that records A/F. Need not have any interaction with ECU. I have the LM-1 with the optional LMA2. my WB logs show A/F in say .10 second intervals along with RPM-TPS-MAP. I think most valuable is the TPS as a reference to note when the AE event occurs. You can patch the WB data into the ECU during a VE learn with EBL although I have not yet done so. also i believe you can do same but still retain Learn off of NB02. That i will do soon. Innovate has a forum to help you get the WB set up and answer any tuning or use questions.
My issue with my WB and this applies to possibly all WB is the sensor. My car destroys them way too fast. Last one lasted 3 months. I think my exhaust gas is over 950 deg(improper tune?) which is the max the sensor will tolerate. OR possibly my sensor starts at engine run and that may be too early so condensation hits it and its kaput. that is my WB state today kaput. also i use a bung extender(sounds kinky right?) and recommend it to pull it sensor a ways out of ext stream.
My issue with my WB and this applies to possibly all WB is the sensor. My car destroys them way too fast. Last one lasted 3 months. I think my exhaust gas is over 950 deg(improper tune?) which is the max the sensor will tolerate. OR possibly my sensor starts at engine run and that may be too early so condensation hits it and its kaput. that is my WB state today kaput. also i use a bung extender(sounds kinky right?) and recommend it to pull it sensor a ways out of ext stream.
True to this.
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