Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I sent this to RBob last night. i installed EBL about 40 days ago. the engine was given fueling values from prior pre EBL .bin. showed lean off the chart in EBL. yet were 124 blm with prior set up? i proceeded to enrichen using ve learn. eventually i added fuel manually and globally. eventually some cells were over 100 so increased my BPC to pull them down under 100. last i looked my BPC is at 142 and cells 2600-3000 at 40-50 map are 90 for fuel. it was said i may have a mechanical issue as my BPC should not calculate that high and i should not be at 90 for fuel in those areas. may well be mechanical.

past 40 days i did not have a functional WB. the lean conditions along with ceramic headers apparently cooked the sensor. now i have an adapter to pull wb02 out of ext stream a bit and am getting valid readings.
drivability issue is engine "breaks up" ,falls on its face, under heavy load at onset of AE and recovers moving into PE after the stumble. revs over 5000 rpms eventually.


last night i saw this:

at 3000 rpms under moderately hard accelleration break up occurs. and will clean out if i back off and accellerate again

duty cycle pegs 100%+ (23 lbs FP-80 lbs inj !) confirmed part #. 2560.

TPS was 60-70%

MAP was 70-85

nb 02 sensor in max 950 mvolts.

WB02 shows 11.3/1 during issue.

would a clogged fuel filter cause duty cycle to read high?

am i choking the engine with too much fuel(11.3 was not an issue with prior ECU)?

Dominic Sorresso

"duty cycle pegs 100%+ (23 lbs FP-80 lbs inj !) confirmed part #. 2560.

TPS was 60-70%

MAP was 70-85

nb 02 sensor in max 950 mvolts.

WB02 shows 11.3/1 during issue.

would a clogged fuel filter cause duty cycle to read high?

YES since you need longer PW to feed same fuel amount.

am i choking the engine with too much fuel(11.3 was not an issue with prior ECU)?"

Sounds like it to me. I'm assuming you are very much into PE at this point.
What does the AE look like? If your WB got fired, then how about the NB?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

AE event is about 11.3/1 on moderately hard accelleration and in high 12's low 13's for AE in normal accell. the NB02 shows it working normally in whats up. holds 14.7/1 in CL.

it is a bosch 02 about 3 years old as is the filter. think i should replace just the FF?

i pulled 50% of my AE out past 30 days. no lean pop. just the gurgle effect. now i am way under what i was before the EBL install on AE values. seems like EBL wants very little AE and a whole lot of fuel in VE tables. just not adding up.

i am going to drop FP to 20 and give that a try with current values. if still an issue will replace the F filter.

Dominic Sorresso

Idle doesn't assure you of either a clean FF or good fuel delivery. There's very little fuel required for it. Any chance you can hook up an external FP Gauge while driving.
I don't think that the EBL code causes any particular preference for AE or VE fuel. The AE strategy is whatever you want to implement. I try to put in just enough AE fuel, (primarily from TPS AE and less form MAP) to get me to the AFR I want to be at for WOT. So AE tails off and the VE table takes over. Found that when I implemented the VAFPR, AE fueling was much more accurately controlled with a lot less overshoot.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the info. i can run car to higher rpms and higher MPH(90+) and fueling seems adequate. that is once the engine gets back up after falling on its face with pedal to the floor . i will back off on fuel pressure and rule out it is choking on excessive fuel during AE. you stated i should not need 23 lbs. i agree. 23 lbs FP with 80 lb ink's will support 400 HP. and i dont have that. i already removed a lot of AE fuel? now that my WB is functional i am in a position to monitor AE and PE-WOT.

some of this is contradictory.

i need mucho fuel in VE tables due to VE learn results yet the event feels like too much fuel and reading 11.3/1 on WB. just does not add up.

Dominic Sorresso

Just a suggestion. Check your TPS and MAP sensors if you haven't already done it.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

they seem normal in logs? with ign on TPS runs from 1% to 95%. ign on map shows 95. during VE-L logs they show as expected. TPS is 1.5 years old and new GM. MAP is older. may be original sensor in car. engine coolant sensor is new. if you drive normally you would never know an issues are present. only when i get on pedal does it rear the ugly face.

Grumpy

Tuning with anything but a raxor sharp tune, IMO, is just wasting gas.

If the plugs, plug wires, fuel filter, cap, rotor, aren't fresh, then you need to replace them all.

Not to mention reading old plugs are a waste of time.

AtomicTruck

Remember to keep the problem as simple as possible. From your description, the VE values are working good at cruizing map values, since you can run high mph with good O2 readings.

Stumble on throttle can be caused by both too much or too little fuel. It sounds like you have too much fuel, since you are running 100%. Design a series of tests where you start at one extreme and gradually work your way up to the other extreme. Take copious notes along the way...

11.3 is a good number for "tip-in", it could even be a bit lower and still work. What is your data aqcusition rate on the O2, fast or slow?

Your issue reminds me, way toooo much of my carb tuning nightmares. Make sure you check your high map values in the VE table (the map areas where you are having trouble). Cruuuizzzing along at high mph isn't the same as accelerating at 80-100 map..... It seems like you have two variables in your issue, VE and AE. Your tests to solve this problem may be numerous but they should be well planned and methodical. Think it through and only change one variable at a time....

RednGold86Z

iTrader: (1)

If your TPS is high and your MAP is only 70-85, then, I think your MAP is shot, or you're at a very high altitude, or you're in some alternative fueling mode that is (mis)-calculating your MAP from a TPS reading.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Fuel pressure regulator tested?

You said you have a 95 KPA Map reading with the engine off and a 70-85 KPA reading at 60-75% TPS. What is the KPA at WOT?

EDIT: Doesn't EBL have IAT sensors and other stuff? Is all that connected properly?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Atomic says:

It sounds like you have too much fuel, since you are running 100%.

I am going to pull back on my fuel pressure. i upped from 17.5 to 23 this spring(pre EBL) to get WOT under 13.3/1. when i put in EBL i left it at 23. I am thinking it is drowning in fuel with AE event. PE not so. when AE times out seems it is better. runs PE just fine. but i dont want to lean on it too hard till i can sort this out. keep in mind the VE values at 90 were created through dozens of datalogs with learn ve. i did not create the learned fuel tables other than day one. day one they were super lean(170 BLM). now they are closer to normal. i was able to get hits up to about 3200 rpms in learn ve. since my old tune did not have the expanded VE tables that EBL affords i may be over fueling with VE values over 3200 rpms. those 3200> i fudged day one of EBL from my prior tune. i pulled 25% there this week but did not run car.

Grumpy says:

If the plugs, plug wires, fuel filter, cap, rotor, aren't fresh, then you need to replace them all.

they are all new-good stuff. ignition is acell upgraded. like 3 years old. i am thinking it is not mechanical. car was fine day before the EBL swap. i believe it is my tune. clogged fuel filter may cause the higher than expected fuel in VE but i dont believe i could run PE with proper A/F as i can do. i may replace filter just to rule it out.

++

fuel pressure reg is 2 years old aeromotive 13301. no problems there.

tps and map fully functional in learn VE. looks and acts normal. with tps at 95%(max) the MAP is over 90.

IAT was not installed during tune. it was unset in .bin(malf) and removed in the coolant/iat tables as instructed.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Since all that stuff is fine, then it sounds like the VE tables are simply too rich.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

that is my thought at this point.

VE Learn has the 3200 and under VE tables correct for most part. for obvious reasons it is difficult to get learn at higher rpms and map even thought i tried to get a "hit" with higher rpms holding the gear.

maybe you can explain AE a bit better. i was of belief that AE is OL and is using solely values in the AE table for TPS and MAP. with my WB logs i see two AE events(tps and map) and then i see the PE seperately afterward. that is with PE set for 70% TPS. can VE fuel contribute to AE enrichment? so would i be correct in that just before the AE event there is a contribution from VE table at that rpm /map cell i could be overly rich in? so by taking out VE fueling at rpm/map that ve learn never sees i am in essense removing fuel during AE?

i think i overdid it with VE fuel when i modified the stock EBL.bin.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You asked how AE works with EBL. Unfortunately, only one person can answer that. You will have to wait for RBob on that one. That is the difficult thing about custom code without the source code. The good part is that the engine runs better, but the bad part is that you become dependant upon the code writer.

In the $8D, the VE table affects the AE amount of fuel. AE is enabled if MAP or TPS changes very quickly in time. AE squirts a little bit of fuel for a little bit of time. PE mode sometimes follows AE mode. PE mode also is dependant upon the VE table. PE mode is enabled when TPS and RPM are greater than a certain value and adds fuel constantly (where as AE is removed over time).

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The values in the VE table can be used to help with AE. This is actually more common then folks believe. It is usually done at lower RPM, higher MAP values. I've seen this in stock GM cal's, and have used this technique myself.

What is done is to raise the VE in those areas (low RPM, high MAP) that are easy to hit, but where the engine does not stay. So that when the go-pedal is hit the MAP transitions high for a moment, the VE% is high which adds fuel (AE), then as the RPM's climb the MAP falls off.

Ronny, earlier today I PM'd you.

RBob.
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Hmm, becoming dependent upon the code writer when custom code is involved? Sounds just like GM code. Unless you have someone to explain how the code works, you won't know how it works either.

I seem to answer questions here about both. . .

RBob.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Adding AE the way you mentioned works quite well on some setups.

True about the code. GMs has been dissasembled and documented. In time your code with probably be known just as well. Right now though, it is easier to get help from people when talking about the GM stuff because it has been around longer.
Since the hardware is documented, the code can always be figured out as long as it is not encrypted.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

RBob says: Ronny, earlier today I PM'd you

i dont see a reply at this address or residence????

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Should have a private message here on TGO from me.

RBob.