5thgear

What is the best system for a 350 5.7 tbi highly modified engine?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

EBL, hands down.

5thgear

What is the best chip burner and eprom I am new to this whole tuning the ECM thing.I see the EBL site says I need these items but I dont know what to get other than the EBL. THanks again. Now maybe I can get all the power out of this beast.

Dave Farr

I'm running MPFI on an old 7747 system- originally Edelbrock, I'm in the same boat. By the time you buy all the burning software and hardware a newer system that competes with Megasquirt called VEMS out of Europe starts looking good, with full WBO2 operation, sequential, bank to bank, and no chips just the laptop. Should be around $650.

Mangus

$295 for EBL, installed, w/ ECM even
+ $85 for Moates BURN1 (chip burner)
+ $0 Tuning software
------------------------
$380

$380 is far less than $650. Unless I'm missing something, or my "new math" is incorrect. If I'm not, "VEMS" better clean your house and cook your food, too.

DM91RS

"new math"...........

3.8TransAM

Its insulting to R "The Man" Bob to compare the EBL to the MegaSquirt in that way.

EBL has true functionality akin to modern factory ecms and way more control over every facet of fuel and spark than the MS could dream of

later
Jeremy

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Comparing the VEMS, Megasquirt, and EBL is difficult because they are very different systems.

The EBL is targeted at TBI using a late 80's - early 90's ECM with assembly code. It works with a single distributor and TBI. RBob does great work and is a great contributor to the board, but it is still old hardware and assembly code. He made a marginal TBI ECM into a great TBI ECM.

Megasquirt can do various fueling modes and spark modes and can handle boost. It is written and "C" and the source is widely available. Possibilites are endless with this system if you know how to code and understand hardware. It is the most adjustable system in that sense. It is also getting CAN support and will be able to do SEFI.

VEMS is the most advanced system and the most money also. It can do various fueling modes (including SEFI) which would allow large Hi-Z injectors. It can also fire 8 coils. It is also LSU4 WBO2 ready (so subract the controller price from the cost). The source code appears to be closed so that limits it.

In the end, choosing an ECM depends on the application (fuel, spark, other controls), you knowledge of electronics & coding, and cost.

Saying any one of the ECMs are better than the other is a null statement. No one has backed up why they say one is better than the other. When if fact they are all good. You just need to apply the best one for the application.

EDIT: To answer the poster's question. My preference for a 350ci TBI would be to use the EBL code & hardware.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

What version of "C" source code of the MS are you comparing it to? The later versions are getting more sophisticated. Has RBob released the source code for EBL? Is that how you compared it?

Dominic Sorresso

EBL has the functionality to run MPFI systems as well. Even the old technology 7747 has more range and capability than most Aftermarket systems including MS. Not sure how you could compare the two.

5thgear

Wow Looks like I opened a can of worms.Thanks for all the information. I will be going with the EBL. Is the moates burn1 all I will need besides the EBL and my laptop.Thanks again for all the information.

novass

iTrader: (1)

Ok to further stirr the pot. Would the EBL be better, easier to tune and more drivable, than the 7749 ($58) to run boost on a tpi motor?

Dominic Sorresso

Novass,

Not having had experience with either boosted motors or the 7749, I would defer that answer to someone like RBob. I believe he has 2 and 3 bar capability in EBL. I haven't explored it.

novass

iTrader: (1)

Ok,

Hopefully Rbob can answer.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'll put the EBL up against the $58 code any day of the week. The current EBL system supports either a 1-bar or a 2-bar MAP sensor. Along with boost SA retard and boost fuel multiplier tables (3D each).

Easier to tune as there is more data available for tuning. The Embedded Lockers (EBL) is a system that works together. The data logging, What's Up Display, BIN, Auto VE Learn, BIN definition files, it is all provided.

RBob.

3.8TransAM

Bob,

U do realize I'm gonna be looking for something to run a port injected turbo setup right?

:-) lol

3.8TransAM

I know him.

He's a smart cookie. More often than not I know/see/hear things before this board does.

I also know hes one of the most scarily efficient and productive people I've ever met in source code and tuning/hac work. Whether you talking GM code his own EBL stuff or figuring out new stuff he's never played with.

lol Guess you would have to see it to believe it.

He' also huge into the driveability end and wants it to be right, not "close enough" like most other systems end up doing.

I would have never considered a TBI anything until the EBL came out

Dave Farr

I like the cleanliness of the plug and play of the EBL but I have already bought a LC1 and was hoping to use it as a closed loop sensor. The price I was looking at was $300 for the 7747 EBL and Moates Ostrich with that Autoprom=$600. Most of you probably already have some form of burners- I am starting from scratch. The VEMS looks good because of capability and I have local talent that has already done a dozen of these and can tune it up--fireandfuel.ca. Looked at the Split Second- timing and fuel piggyback but its pricey- then ran into Perfect Power 7SMT which really looks good but pricey but will run WBO2.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You can use the LC1 as a closed loop sensor on the EBL and an input for the VE learn. The LC1 has two outputs that are programable. .

Dave Farr

I guess the best thing about this is that you don't butcher the harness and since its my daily driver can plug in the spare 7747 in a pinch.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That right there is the main reason that I went with it. That and the fact that I don't trust my soldering skills enough to do the extensive soldering required on the MS controller. My luck would have it failing in the middle of nowhere and no way to get home.

Dave Farr

I admit I was looking at the Cadillac of emulators and editing- whats really needed here for the novice to get it up and running? $$

Dave Farr

A little off topic, had problems with Accel's/Pertronix HEI modules (8 pin) finally decided to go back to stock. Have you played with different GM modules with any differences- the last one I put in was a used pull and seems gutless to about 30% tip-in then comes on?? Is there a 'hotter' module or should they all be the same- application is '89 K1500 vortec TPI (limping with a 7747 crutch).

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Can use either the Ostrich (for immediate downloading/emulating), or the Burn1 and a few chips.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like that module isn't using the ECM timing, but is in limp mode timing. Can check it with a timing light: at idle note the timing, open the bypass connector (EST), and re-check timing. If still at the same location then something is wrong.

RBob.

5thgear

So is the moates ostrich all i need with the EBL?

Dave Farr

I was under the impression that the LC1 could be tied in with EBL only for dataloging (reference only) but could not be used by the EBL to actually trim fueling. If your saying that the EBL itself can actually use the LC1, that changes things for me. My application doesn't even use a IAT/MAT factory and I want to add it- which the EBL will do. Lean cruise sounds great, need all the help I can get to keep 6000lbs moving, what is the target afr for lean cruise before you melt things?
I think 'fast355' just turns on his EGR above 1000 rpm and leaves it turned on, the EBL is supposed to do EGR pretty soon- I'm trying to hold off my purchase. Testing function I have directly plugged in my EGR to port vacume and other than a slightly worse idle, power on the hwy improved- for years kept getting a code 32 and it looks like I finally beat it- too free of an exhaust- I can't belive it, used a product from Car Chemistry called the CC insert which is a weld in resonator for various pipe sizes, mine was 3 baffle 3" and it fixed my cab resonance and added some backpressure for the EGR no code yet and I now comute highway to work (always set the code on the flat).
Rbob- question, I have two 7747's one a late AC factory rebuild and one a wrecker pull original oem, the newer one seems to work better would this make a difference in which core I should send you- or would the end result with tuning nullify the difference? If the core was sent in with the current programed Prom (and outlining the current issues I'm having) could the EBL be cloned off this foundation programing, except for pinging and rich/lean issues all the other functions like TCC and AC stay as is, add a MAT and LC1 wiring.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Dave,
I used the LC1 with the EBL by programing the LC1s Analog output to suit what I wanted for A/F ratio vs. Voltage. 11:1 was roughly 1 volt and 17:1 was roughly 0.1 volt. Then you can go into the O2 target voltage vs MAP table and adjust where you want the target voltage based on MAP. Works very well when you get it right. It will then learn the VE tables to those tagets.

Grumpy

Nothing is in the running with the EBL.

I have an EBL running the engine functions in my PCM'd 91 3/4t truck, and it does a much better job then the later PCM.
Streamlining the code like what RBob has done, takes the ole 747 into a realm of it's own. Doing the same thing to my 148 based system has generated the same *thing* (the perfect ecm/code).
While various people have written code for aftermarket ecms, few really know what an engine really needs (not to mention most of the aftermarket ecms were originated by one man's code). RBob has the unique ability to drive what he designs, and then once it's all figured out, then *talks* about it. Not to mention that he's been at this for a while.....

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Uh, when did this come available? How can it run the MPI stuff as is?

DM91RS

Vern............check out Rbob's website. I just found this out this AM also. There is an injector driver add on that you can get. That's pretty cool as now one can upgrade to more injector size overall and feed just about any engine. (Someone step in and correct me if I am wrong in this assumption}. I don't understand (pardon my ignorance with mpfi) what the diff is between saturated and peak and hold injectors though.

Oh yeah Vern I forgot to send you a new screen shot at 100 mph with the new gears as you gave me grief on the old one.

Dave Farr

Checked the module function, '0' unplugged, advanced- plugged. I know GM made several different module applications I'm not sure to buy my application or if another application has more desireable performance.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it will take the place of the EPROM. You probably already know this: need a laptop to run the What's Up Display (WUD). The WUD has the data logging, analysis, VE Learn, and all in it.

RBob.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

HA!HA! Thanks!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

HAHA, I remember that. A comment about all of us out speeding when we were logging or something like that.

PS- I have some of the Red Brick doing 110+.

DM91RS

[QUOTE=Fast355;3048705]HAHA, I remember that. A comment about all of us out speeding when we were logging or something like that.
QUOTE]


I remember what you are saying now but he gave me crap about the low rpm at 100 when I had 3.08's in the rear vs. the 3.73's now.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

DM- FWIW, my G20 is turning a brisk 2,400 RPM @ 100 MPH in OD and 2,700 RPM @ 115 MPH in OD. I am back to 3.08s from 3.73s. 3.08s + 295/50/R17s + .7 OD gear in the 700r4.