1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Yea I already have EBL also ... And yes I have the speed pro .030^ hyper flattop pistons and heads were milled .015 .. So that CR was just a guesstimate ... I have a thread on the build but don't get alot of answers there ... Thread title is " Lo3 rebuild (HP estimates) " if u wanna check it out

If u don't mind me asking what kind of power or track times did u get out of ur build ? Oh yea and my cam is on a 114 LSA ...

And I ported the heads myself I figured if anything else they would be a good set of heads to learn how to port on .. I just removed the big step or neck in the bowls , removed just the very tip of the swirl ramp to get it out of the runners , port matched to my gaskets , and just slightly polished the runners with 120 grit cartridge rolls

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Go to a 3 or 4 wire .. U won't regret it

Doober

I know it will go into open loop faster, but a)it's only temporary, b)it's currently 105º on average daily here right now, I'm not worried about it dropping out of closed loop, and c)there are more money-sensitive things going on.

If it was more permanent, I would spend the extra $30 on a 3-wire sensor, and whatever else I needed to make it 3-wire.
===========================================================

Still need to know, will it freak out with them being connected...

ownor

iTrader: (5)

will it freak out with what connected?

Doober

Both the w/b and n/b.... I already got an email back from Bob though, it will be fine with both sensors connected.

Doober

So before I got a new sensor, on a whim I checked for vacuum leaks. Sprayed around the throttle shaft, no change (really glad about that actually). Sprayed TBI base, no change. Sprayed the base of the TBI/carb adapter, it just flat died. I have a feeling this has been the cause the whole time, the strange thing is it hasn't changed for around 7,000 miles, it even idles at 700-800 with 17-18 degrees idle timing... it had a slight quaking to it at idle sometimes, but I thought that was just the nature of the beast. I have a feeling I'll be doing a bit of tuning in the near future and my fuel table will look way different.

Doober

Also, another thing... has anyone had communication issues between their computers and the ecm? At times the WUD will stop responding - sometimes after 30+ seconds, sometimes after a few seconds - and then continue to display as normal. It also has a lag in response... usually close to a second after snapping the throttle I see the WUD respond.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This is typical when using a USB/Serial cable that uses the Prolific chip set. The USB/Serial cables that use the FTDI chip set are flawless.

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I would have to look but I believe I was running a Belkin adapter from Wally world with my setup.

Doober

I'll give it a look, see what Belkin uses. I got my current one from a local computer shop iirc, the last one took a crap & died on me.

Also replaced the gasket last night, it idles quite a bit better but it seems to still have a small vacuum leak, at least when I spray it real good with carb cleaner... quick spurts don't really seem to get a reaction. There isn't much to seal around the edges, obviously why I'm having issues, you can see in the first & bottom pics.
Adapter side


Manifold side







I matched the gasket more to the manifold than the adapter, big mistake. I may open up the bolt holes in the gasket so I can reposition better.

Doober

So after driving it around town today, I don't think I'm going to worry too much about the whole emission thing until the truck has a transmission in it that won't have me second guessing every time I drive it.... it's just slipping too much now. Used to be after each gear was fully applied I could drive it as a normal dd, no hot rodding etc., but now I can't even do that. So once again it goes on the back burner until I can come up with the $ for a trans

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Guess ATF etc checked out all good on that trans?

I have a question concerning start-up and choke fueling.
Is there a way to get the ZT2 (or its LCD) to be available at/shortly after start-up? The thing is, every time you start it, it will revert back to sensor (pre-)heating no matter if the sensor is hot or not (at least I think it always does some heating).
So even if I let it heat up with ignition on engine off, at cranking the voltage supposedly drops too much to keep it alive. Hence it will be in "heating up" mode again after the engine has started.
Reason asking is I still get quite some smoke on cold start-up, hard to tell the color. A little blue (oil), white (water) and tan/brownish (excess fuel?) - lol. Just thinking it could be a little clearer. There's like a little smoke screen in the rear view mirror after start-up. And in the side mirrors too once the smoke screen starts creeping away lol.
I already played a bit with Crank AFR/PW... Choke is not on at/during cranking right? What AFR do you want for Choke btw?
Just trying to learn some more details here

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The blue is likely from valve stem seals going out.

During cranking, either the crank AFR or the open loop AFR is used. Whichever one is richer.

Once started the open loop AFR is used with the choke AFR being subtracted off to make it richer. Can lean these out until the engine won't start, then go back richer until you get clean start ups.

Note that the latest WUD has the commanded AFR on the main display now. Can now down load it directly from our web site (Updates page).

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

test

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Aah, commanded AFR in the WUD, Nice addition.. Does any WUD version work with any cal version?
Yeah blue smoke be the common valve stem seals. But in general i get no smoke at all when warm. Letting it sit for some hours or overnight and i get that startup puff. I'll try cranking AFR as you said. Just hard to get it correct for the different temperature conditions no?

Also, how do i get a near stock L03 (only air cleaner & exh work, 15 psi FP) to get a smooth idle at 600 rpm.. Mine is pretty rough in both OL and CL.. Timing is set up about right, played a little bit with prop gains, VE table and idle state SA today but wasn't really successful. It drops really low to like 50mV in CL idle. I'm in async btw (port mod workaround to run tbi).

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes.

Just get one shot a day at changing/testing...

Being in async mode it will likely never be good. Async mode just sputters fuel in.

RBob.

Doober

Well, it's slowly been on its way out... Eventually slipping a little more as time progressed, it's the same trans as when the truck had a 4.3, truck has 252k miles now, no idea on the trans.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

That's kinda what i thought on async.. Thx

alex91z28

should there be any diference doing ve learns with boost or normaly aspirated?
I mean is it better to do the learns first na and leave them alone. and then add the boost?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I would think the VE-Ls are specific for your engine(under 100 MAP) and again over 100 MAP(in boost). BUT in boost over 100MAP you may choice to use WB for Learn. And plug cuts as well.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is no VE Learning in boost. Need to use the fuel multiplier table to get the desired AFR while in boost. Note that if the charger isn't efficient you can also remove fuel via the multiplier table.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

... wouldn't 100 MAP correspond to whatever the MAP sensor's range is? IOW, there's nothing like over 100 MAP if the correct sensor is used. So for say a 2 bar MAP sensor, 100 MAP is 2 bar absolute?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Not really. MAP is manifold absolute pressure. So at sea-level on a normal day the MAP reading will be about 104 KPa. Which to us Americans is about 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure (barometric). As the elevation increases the MAP reading decreases.

Such as being a mile high (1.6 km) in Denver at 84 KPa.

A 2-bar MAP will read absolute pressure from about 20 KPa to about 210 KPa. While a 1-bar MAP sensor (typical stock sensor) will read from 20 KPa to 110 KPa. Once over 110 KPa, that is what it reports, 110 KPa.

With a 3-bar MAP reading from about 40 KPa to 330 KPa. The extended range causes a loss at the low end.

There are different conversion routines in the EBL for each of the three MAP sensors.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Hmm interesting, I understand what you're saying about the physical pressure ranges, but do the tables and everything else change their scaling/axis when using another MAP sensor?
I just remembered that MAP is not "dimensionless" but actually referring to the actual pressure, yes.. Maybe I was thinking it's given as a percentage..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Only the boost tables MAP axis changes between a 2 and a 3 bar MAP. When using a 3 bar MAP the table has half the resolution, as it is the same table and data space as if a 2 bar MAP was in place.

Note in the XDF file that the "BST - " tables have two entries for each. One for a 2 bar, the other for 3 bar.

All of the other tables stay the same, from 20 to 100 KPa. The EBL firmware creates a 1 bar MAP value from the 2 or 3 bar MAP reading.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

gotcha, makes sense now. is the C3 / P4 EBL approach for boost the same as for the SFI6?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the most part yes. There are some differences, as the SFI-6 uses the actual SA in the boost table, while the EBL & P4 the boost SA table is a reduction in SA value.

The SFI-6 is getting waste gate control, which will be ported to the EBL P4 system. The SFI-6 can run two MAP sensors, a 1-bar in conjunction with a 2 or 3 bar MAP. The ECM switches between them for the best in driveability and control under boost.

The P4 and SFI-6 ECMs have more I/O then the EBL ECM, so it can do more.

The SFI-6 can also control an alcohol injection system, which the P4 also has, but is not yet released. Once the waste gate code is working and ported to the P4 that new code will then be released.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

i see, that's some good info/news... might use the SFI6 someday for a fiero with a turbo V6 3400 type deal..

FIRECHICKEN

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys... Do any of you know if I can use a regular bin like the $8d with an EBL or do I have to use the ones that come with the system??

I'd hate to spend the time modifying one if it won't work.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to use one of the BINs and the XDF that is supplied with the EBL systems.

RBob.

bphage

Okay its been a while so I included my last post as a point of reference.

I am going to have some Dyno time on Friday and I am trying to get ready for it. Long story short, I need to smog the car but the dmv won't let me have more than single day passes to drive it so I am trying to get it done on the dyno so I can then go smog the car.

Here are my current issues:

From Last Post updates:

- IAC steps. I adjusted the blades until the car would state open throttle on the EBL WUD then backed it off. Steps are better but not quite in the 30 range... more like 40 as I recall... is this close enough? I did find how to adjust the TPS sensor so that with the tps-adl setting(if I remember correctly) I increased the gain from 98 to 102 and TPS shows 100% at WOT.

- O2 sensor, changed it with a new bosch unit; I found multiple posts with others running the same TES headers without problems so I put that in. This fixed much of the sinusoidal idle thing although it still will occasionally kick in.

- Electrical, well I have almost rewired the whole car now lol but I checked grounds to the ECM - with only .02 ohm resistance from the neg bat term to the tan wire...so grounds are good. I bumped up the RPM by 50 to keep me in the 800 rpm range which keeps voltage around 13 - 13.6 Volts, voltage drop at the fuel pump is 12.5 - 13 as I recall and is from the factory wire resistance.

- I made all the other suggested changes as noted.

New Stuff:

I have the TT-1 installed, did a VE learn and seems to be looking good, most of the time I have about a 15:1 AFR, I did put it into AE once and AFR went to 12:1 which was a nice surprise. Here is my confusion, for AE tuning it states tuning VE can be done... other than setting the preferences for the WB do I need to do anything else to allow VE tuning at WOT with the WB?

The TT-1 is giving me grief setting up with my laptop; I plug it in and the only change I see on my devise manager is a new com port open up com 7. Should I update that with the drivers and see if it will communicate with the TT-1? The defualt settings seem good to me but when I tune on Friday it might be good to have access to the TT-1.

On The WUD it always shows 1/2 on the gear, I have the auto selected but wasn't sure if it should show the actual gear I was in. I have the b&m meg shifter and wired it to think its always in park because the mircoswitches never worked well... does this make a difference? I wouldn't think so but thought I should ask.

- Last I am confused with some posts where people state they are tuning in OL vs CL, I have been doing CL tuning, should I be doing OL tuning with the WB?

Thanks to all who have helped me... I am finally getting this car back on the road it it just isn't possible without the combined help from everyone on this board.

--------------------Last Post-------------------------

Thanks, once I had some more understanding it helped me to put things into perspective. I think I can play with this value some more to get things working better.

Thanks, I was starting to draw the same conclusion with the IAC counts but couldn't see a link between the idle and specifically the sinusoidal idle I was seeing. My TPS voltage is .6 closed and over 4 volts at WOT but only shows 95% on the WUD for some reason... from some of the other posts it looked like adjusting the blades would be helpful but again when I graphed the values in excel and ran a correlation analysis I couldn't find anything that seemed to match the sinusoidal pattern. This made me hesitant to change it before I understood the sinusoidal nature of the idle.

Done and Done. Ah the electrical system. So I have the march aluminum under drive pulley set. Long story short with the pulley set it won't start charging until over 800 rpm or so which is why you see 12 volts roughly below 800 rpm then upto 13v roughly above 800 rpm. I was concerned that this would create an injector pulse width issue but two EE friends of mine thought it wouldn't be a problem. With my intended use of the car there should be no problem charging the battery as I won't idle long enough to need to worry about it not charging while at idle. If I could keep the RPM stable I wouldn't see the voltage changing all over the place. I looked at the voltage change and it didn't seem to correlate to the sinusoidal idle so I wrote it of as an unlikely cause. But, changing the steps to ignore this would probably be a good thing. So I will make that change. I would consider using a bigger alt pulley but I can't seem to find a nice aluminum one to match the rest of my engine... so I was "living with it."

The fuel pump wiring does have some resistance to it... I now forget what wiring diameter GM used but if you ever measure the resistance it drops like 1-.5 volts or so from the relay to the pump. I was thinking of running a new larger wire to deal with the aeromotive stealth 340's higher amp draw, but given the short distance of the wire and amperage it was more than sufficient even though the resistance was less than ideal. Also by the time this becomes a restriction on the fuel pump I know I will be adding an external fuel pump so it was a bit of a mute point at the time. The Fuel pressure at the rail is stable despite this voltage change. I know the relay is okay, I don't remember if I checked the oil pressure switch, but my oil sending unit is FUBAR too so I will probably just replace both when I go to put in larger injectors for the turbo this summer.


That makes sense, I didn't catch that at all... thank you.

I knew the there was something I was missing with the sinusoidal looking idle... if the o2 sensor is FUBAR then it would be the cause of the idle that I am seeing. I don't understand why it kicks in when at operating temp more than when cold or how its masked with a higher rpm. I have edelbrock ceramic coated tes headers and they have a new o2 sensor in them from edelbrock. As I recall it had to be there o2 sensor because a stock sensor would not work correctly in there headers. I also need to install the wide band o2 bung in the Y pipe... so I think I will be taking everything a part and looking for issues you mentioned + anything I missed.

Thanks so much guys - I attached the idle I was seeing just in case someone else runs into this crazy problem.

Cflick

Do they issue 30 day tage to a new owner ?
I might be interested, but since it won't pass a smog test it's only worth about $1.00 as it is.

It's a reason I always keep on-file the last tune that passed, no matter how far it is from the present "working" tune.


Not terribly critical. As long as the closed voltage is below threshold, and WOT is above the WOT threshold, EBL self-calibrates during key-on power up.
You want the idle steps in the range so that the air flow shear across the "closed" throttle blades atomizes the fuel coming from the TBI injectors.
This ( of course ) doesn't apply to multi-port injection.

As a rule, either the sensor works ( you see the voltage swing from about .1 to above .9 about once per second or so when running closed loop ) or it doesn't.

The point of WB learns, is that the commanded AFR is compared to the WB AFR feedback, and adjusted appropriately. Best ( quickest, easiest, least mitigating variables ) done open loop.
Closed loop narrow band VE learns works, but is an approximation guess, so generally takes several passes as it gets progressively closer.

I did nearly all of my VE learns closed loop, but I did so well aware that learning doesn't happen under many conditions, such as PE, and so needed manually fudged. Also well aware that it would take SEVERAL runs to get meaningful progress.
My reasoning was that in the event something was WAY off, closed loop stood a better chance of saving the engine until it was close enough to not risk damage.
Open loop wide band VE learn can be completed in one or two runs, unless or until you change something.

Doober

ownor, you & I are on the same page, but I want to go a step farther and attempt an LZ9 swap: the one from the G6 rated at 240hp & tq., just gotta figure out the best way to run the variable intake & cam, if it's possible.

I haven't touched my truck yet, still saving up for a trans, then tackling the vacuum leak under the TBI adapter.

bphage

They still do the 30 day tag if your a new owner, problem is I went away for school and am now registering the car again and they wont give me anything but a single day pass. As for the $1 on days like today it seems like I could pay you to take it off my hands! As for the last working tune, that was with MAF so I don't have one. Anyhow, Thanks for the help Cflick.

Given that I can't drive the car around without having to worry about a ticket I have revisited the high idle issue... I just cant seem to get this worked out. I can get it to idle 800-850rpm well.... but everything I have on the car... especially the cam is carb legal and is "computer friendly." I would think I should be able to achieve a stock idle.

I have played with the timing, the VE, the car was going into launch mode during the sinusoidal idle so I disabled launch mode, timing is now fixed, stall saver disabled etc. I just can't figure out what the heck is causing this idle to go sinusoidal then stall.

I have a bunch of different data logs here is a small excerpt of one with the sinusoidal idle. Can anyone see what I am missing?

ownor

iTrader: (5)

frankly i've lost some of the details of what you're running or what you might have tried already bphage. i'm not an expert at all on this, so i'll just make some mild suggestions and thoughts..

the sinusoidal idling issue must be caused by something that is exciting this oscillation, so i would think it would be some kind of control loop unless something is mechanically not sound. for idle, the way i understand it, one thing would be to try out open loop idling (OpIdl bit in the option flags as suggested by Rbob 2 pages back iirc). so that would fix an oscillation caused by AFR closed loop (lambda/O2) control at idle.
might want to try different idle AFRs going from whatever your VE table commands (that's what determines the OL idle AFR, i think). since you have to get emissions inspected though, this is probably not the ultimate solution for you but can use open loop idle for now to get the SA and IAC right, and after that the CL idle?

next control loop for idle is the speed control, in first instance by SA (idle SA compensation tables.. this yields quicker response on engine speed imho), and then IAC.

that was a lot of imho's and "i think", right?

ownor

iTrader: (5)

ok so i had some time on my hands to look at this more closely, as i was also learning about idle control lately but not sure if i got it all right... so mind you, as said ima give it a try but take it with a grain of salt.
i hope others will correct me if they feel the need to. i encourage them to do so, to help me and all others learning so far on this awesome forum.

so let's look at the attached plot i made (see below).

in general:
y-axis is value, x-axis time t (or sample number); note the plot legend, RPM is divided by 10 to represent on one plot (800 rpm would be 80 on the left scale then).

one thing that is noticable is that your IAC is at 0 steps, when the idle rpm is somewhere between 750 and 800 in the beginning. imho that should be around 10 steps for a warm idle at whatever rpm you have it idling.
also it seems you're already running in open loop idle here for a commanded AFR of 13.5 (this is static throughout this log).

let's look at the first RPM drop. you can see how at t=17 (x: 17) the idle starts dropping.. the IAC then reacts by opening up to around 25 steps from 0. i would suspect this is already the "stall saver" kicking in here.. MAP (engine load) also rises as the engine almost stalls out.

assuming your idle is set to say stock-ish 600-650 rpm or something? so the "idle SA compensation" will subtract a little SA to reach that target speed from the 750 rpm it is running at right now (around t=17), i would think it would also close the IAC a bit but yours is already at zero steps so nothing to do here in this regard.
you can see how there is an SA drop at first for t=22 in order to reduce idle speed. assuming a set idle of around 625,
it does fall off like a rock tho, so it adds some SA back along with the IAC opening.
then at around t=33 you have another spike in SA for a value of 23 degrees, where it tries to push the idle from 550 to 625 or so. the rpm rises too fast tho, similar to what happened when it tried to get the idle speed lower.

what is your set idle speed again (this is in P/N i suppose?) and also is your IAC okay? reported IAC position is imho just the commanded IAC position so you can't be quite sure where it is actually at.

let's look at the first RPM drop. you can see how at t=17 (x: 17) the idle starts dropping.. you can see how the IAC then reacts by opening up to around 25 steps from 0. i would suspect this is already the "stall saver" kicking in here.. MAP (engine load) also rises as the engine almost stalls out. for now just remember this condition where oscillation is caused by too high amount of SA/IAC added referred to as "overshoot".

so what now?
in a control loop, in order to make the control variable (idle speed) reach the set point (reference idle speed, whatever is set in your "IAC idle speed table"), the controller will manipulate the control factors, which can be certain physical parameters (here: SA, IAC).
assuming the plant (the system that is to be controlled, here: engine) physically stays within the same boundary conditions, then getting an oscillation in the control variable (idle speed) would be caused by an overshoot of the control factors (SA, IAC).

in other words, i think the idle control loop in your case is adding and substracting too much SA/IAC.
you have already locked the commanded AFR. i would try to lock the idle SA and adjust your idle screw to obtain a steady idle at say 800 rpm (IAC will read 0 steps). you can then go lower until you reach your desired idle speed, if the engine likes it, and tune it so that the IAC is around 10 steps when engine is warm. also check if your IAC is clean and the pintle actually moving freely... there is a procedure floating around here somewhere for that and also for adjusting your IAC steps at idle.

hope this helps, bphage.
C&C welcome

Cflick

So, if I bought it from you for $1, sales tax should be around $0.07...
Then, sold it back to you for $1, you could then get a 30 day tag ?


Ownor did a pretty good analysis. I agree with nearly all of it.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

this day shall be a remark in history, i feel honored care to expand on the "nearly all of it"?

pretty effed up on the tags... but then again, getting tags registered over here is about 200 euros (265$)..

Cflick

No, because it would occupy a great deal of space ( and time ) for very minor, relatively insignificant, comments.
The short version is that I agree it's an unstable over-compensation, that builds on itself until it exceeds the ability of the stall saver, and dies.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

hehe, alright. thanks all the same. seems i finally got my head wrapped the right way around at least a bit of all this tuning stuff.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is a lean area in the VE table. That is what causes the RPM to surge upward.

Appears to be in the 400 - 500 RPM area, at 40 - 50 KPa. Usually I increase the VE enough to prevent the surging, then let the VE Learn make it correct.

RBob.

bphage

Thanks you guys, I need to go through this and the lean condition much much more closely. The IAC is new, the car was sitting for years and when i first went to start it it had bad gas and a frozen IAC... so replaced the gas tank, fuel pump, IAC etc. I reset the IAC at that time, I forget the procedure now but I think I will look it up again and repeat it to be sure. As for the idle settings, I added like 200 rpm across the board to the stock settings get to the 800 - 850 rpm ish idle settings that I currently run without stalling. It was a clear band-aid but its allowed me to drive the car without stalling. I am going to need to go through this much more closely as this is golden info.


Thanks again guys, now I hope I can go make it work!

bphage

Well I still have a lot of work to do but, I have returned to the original idle settings without dying, still have the occasional loop to figure out...(I noticed it going into launch mode at times so that's my next topic to read on) but fixed 90% + by decreasing the SA compensation for the high and low idle by 60-70% then decreased the stall saver starting rpm to 400. My VE table looks like crap still; though the engine is running well. I solved the lean issue by taking RBob recommendation and increase the VE to prevent surge then let the VE learn do its job. I had the smooth factor set to 1 and tried to take my time hitting all the VE areas but found I would get lean areas again and would get the surging all over. So I increased the smooth factor to 8 and did a few VE learns which seemed to help a bunch... anyhow off to the dyno tomorrow to see how well I can waist my money as no one around the Bay Area (just moved from Indy) wants to tune the car so I can only rent dyno time... wish me luck. Thanks again to all of you.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

O2mv's are way too high at idle, your wideband is reporting a 12.4 air/fuel ratio at only 500RPM. Your charging system is reading low, might want to check your connections behind the alternator, battery and grounds. What is with the 2-BAR, are you running a power adder...?

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Hmm there is indeed a lean area where it bumps to about 16:1 ... but is there any influence of the IAC and SA compensation too, or does this just add up to even more overshoot?

hot damn i really need to update my WUD, i love that cmdAFR display.

and yes the NB02 shows rich which correlates with the WBO2 reading.. could be a bit leaner into the 14-14.7 direction but imho not too much wrong with that?
2bar, he did talk about some turbos imho so he probably is using a 2 bar map already, also MAP 42 kPA in drive at idle seems to be within a reasonable range.
why does it show 1/2 gear btw?

drive it

iTrader: (1)

I've asked a few questions via email and figured I'd ask on here too so others can see what have to be common questions.
I have saujp pretty dialed in now, but run boost and want to get rid of the fmu-Your starting bins-do the values in the tables match up with the starting values in saujp?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The main & extended spark advance tables are the same in resolution. Except that in the EBL it goes to 6400 RPM instead of 5600 RPM.

Other tables are also expanded, such as the spark latency table. Instead of going from 800 to 6000 RPM, it goes from 0 to 6400 RPM.

There are some major differences in the VE tables. The EBL low speed VE is from 400 to 2000 RPM by every 100 RPM. Another MAP column is added at 65 KPa in the EBL.

The $8D mask is from 400 to 1600 RPM by every 100 RPM.

The EBL then has a high speed VE table and an extended VE table. Both of these have the same MAP columns as the EBL's low speed VE table. With the RPM steps changing:

From 2000 to 3600 by every 200 RPM, then every 400 RPM to 6000, then every 500 RPM to 8000 RPM.

While the $8D code has a much smaller VE table in this area:

From 1600 to 5600 RPM by every 400 RPM, and 20 - 100 KPa by every 10 KPa.

As you can see the EBL has much higher resolution VE tables. This makes taming ratty engines much easier. With the auto VE Learn making quick work of it.

There are other areas that are different. Such as the EBL having three BLM cells: idle, cruise, and decel. While $8D uses 16 BLM cells.

RBob.

drive it

iTrader: (1)

Also are the values themselves the same to start with, say the rich/lean offset vs. coolant temp values at from -40 thru -4 are "0" at 8 deg C. it's "1" etc?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

EBL's don't have that table. Didn't see much use for it.

RBob.

bphage

Okay, I went to the dyno today to work on being sure my spark advance was okay as I can't do WOT on the street. Ill post the dyno graph at the end of this. Anyhow...

I have been ignoring the NB O2 while doing WB VE learns. Should I be paying more attention to this I am not sure what the NB 02mv should be as I have no normal to compare it to.

The electrical is posted about a few pages back... I have under-drive pullies and you won't see 13.5 v until about 800 rpm. So at idle it runs of the battery more or less... I cant remember if the alternator actually puts out bellow 13 v or if there is a threshold that needs to be passed... I did measure it once but cant remember now. I don't think I am charging at idle but again I would need to measure the alt output to see if its an all or nothing proposition. All the grounds are good... I get less than .02 omh drop between the battery and the ECM. The two bar is for the rear mount turbo I will be putting on the car... I hope this summer! Must pass smog first!

This post helps... I think i need to flatten that part out by hand as the VE learns don't seem to help... kinda erratic. As for the 1/2...I have been trying to figure out the 1/2 vs p/n for a while now... its set to "auto" but I can't get it to display correctly. I do have a B&M with the P/N switch wired on... I figured this might be the cause.

After the dyno tuning for spark on 89 (looking for a safe tune) I need to look at the idle again... the VE learns in that area seem to mess up the idle more than help it. Anyone know of a way to tell the VE learn to ignore specific cells?