Tuning with the EBL
#2751
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Do this with the engine running. The measured voltage should be low, less then .2 volts.
Can do the same between the positive battery terminal and the stud on the alternator. And between the positive battery terminal and other 'hot' locations. Again, looking for a minimal voltage drop.
With the engine running can also shake the harness and cables to see if that makes a change.
RBob.
#2752
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Just checked those points. No voltage drop on ground cable. Maybe .13 from positive post to alternator. Nothing on the body grounds. Problem seems to have gone away for the time being though so that doesn't really tell me anything. I managed to get the ECM stuck in diag. mode and it wouldn't stop flashing code 12, pulled the ECM out, and when I plugged it in 20 min later I haven't had the problem since. I've been probing voltage and grounds from the back side of the connectors. Maybe it was just a bad connection at an ECM pin?
#2753
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
That would bother me. A lot !
Unless I can point my finger at something and say with confidence "that was it" I'm not happy. How can you know that the "problem" won't rear its ugly head at the most inopportune moment ?
I'd take up RBob on his offer, and send it back.
Unless I can point my finger at something and say with confidence "that was it" I'm not happy. How can you know that the "problem" won't rear its ugly head at the most inopportune moment ?
I'd take up RBob on his offer, and send it back.
#2754
Re: Tuning with the EBL
What would cause my tune to run leaner when I restart on a warm motor, for instance if I drive and get it up to temp then go in somewhere to eat or to get something when I leave (10+ mins later) the car runs leaner especially at idle and very light throttle periods. I cant seem to find anything that is telling it to reduce fuel.
It seems to only do this till it gets back up to temp. It also seems like if I shut it off then instantly turn it back on that it isn't near as bad. Any thoughts?
It seems to only do this till it gets back up to temp. It also seems like if I shut it off then instantly turn it back on that it isn't near as bad. Any thoughts?
#2755
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
What would cause my tune to run leaner when I restart on a warm motor, for instance if I drive and get it up to temp then go in somewhere to eat or to get something when I leave (10+ mins later) the car runs leaner especially at idle and very light throttle periods. I cant seem to find anything that is telling it to reduce fuel.
It seems to only do this till it gets back up to temp. It also seems like if I shut it off then instantly turn it back on that it isn't near as bad. Any thoughts?
It seems to only do this till it gets back up to temp. It also seems like if I shut it off then instantly turn it back on that it isn't near as bad. Any thoughts?
RBob.
#2756
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Im currently just running a filter on the end of my plenum since I still have my battery on the passenger side. Is there something in the tune I can change until I get a decent air intake on it with a relocated IAT? Is the IAT the same sensor as the MAT? The one underneath the plenum?
#2757
Supreme Member
iTrader: (-3)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,184
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Idk bout the other stuff .. But I know a cheap way to build a decent or better than aftermarket CAI .. Summit has 5' of aluminum tubing for around 30-35$ ..then all u need is rubber elbows or if u can weld aluminum u can make ur own elbows out of the same tubing ..
#2758
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Im currently just running a filter on the end of my plenum since I still have my battery on the passenger side. Is there something in the tune I can change until I get a decent air intake on it with a relocated IAT? Is the IAT the same sensor as the MAT? The one underneath the plenum?
A MAT & IAT are similar, the difference is in the construction. A MAT is like the CTS, a solid brass bulb on the sensor end. While an IAT has an open bird-cage like structure on the end. This allows it to react faster to changes in temperature.
RBob.
#2759
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Car: 84 TA / 89 Formula
Engine: LS1 / L03
Transmission: T56 / 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.73 / 3.27
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Wouldn't taking the MAT out of the fueling equation make it run lean or rich under certrain conditions?
On MAT/IAT, so the V6 MPFI style 'bird-cage' is an IAT and the TPI CTS-style is a MAT. But I guess the MAT is supposed to be mounted in the plenum whereas the IAT is really supposed to go somewhere near the air filter or something? I would think since relocating it from say the TPI plenum or TBI air cleaner to near the air filter would change fueling quite a bit considering the colder temperatures there.
On MAT/IAT, so the V6 MPFI style 'bird-cage' is an IAT and the TPI CTS-style is a MAT. But I guess the MAT is supposed to be mounted in the plenum whereas the IAT is really supposed to go somewhere near the air filter or something? I would think since relocating it from say the TPI plenum or TBI air cleaner to near the air filter would change fueling quite a bit considering the colder temperatures there.
#2760
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
On MAT/IAT, so the V6 MPFI style 'bird-cage' is an IAT and the TPI CTS-style is a MAT. But I guess the MAT is supposed to be mounted in the plenum whereas the IAT is really supposed to go somewhere near the air filter or something? I would think since relocating it from say the TPI plenum or TBI air cleaner to near the air filter would change fueling quite a bit considering the colder temperatures there.
In one car I mounted the IAT behind the front grill.
RBob.
#2762
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Considering the frequency at which the problem was occurring, and the fact that it hasn't happened since saturday after I plugged the ECM back in, and how rare it is that an ECM itself actually goes bad, I'd say the problem should have shown back up by now if its gonna. Of course if it does happen again, its time for a closer look at the ECM than I can take.
#2763
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Okay so I am a tuning NOOB converting my 88 IROC 305 to a 350 EBL P4. I was able to run a stock MAF tune - ran crappy - prior to conversion and not to bad on a stage 1 89 tune. I got everything for in for the EBL and set up two starting bins. My engine Specs are below and I figured they were similar enough to the vortec heads that I would use the Vortec VE and Spark table. Only thing I couldn't find was if darn EGR was NO or NC so I left it as it was in the stock tune.
Car fired up and it certainly felt to me like it was lean surging (rpms would increase quickly then drop then increase quickly then drop). It was only running for a few seconds before the SES came on so I shut her off to take a look at the code. I through a code 34. I tried to clear the code but couldn't figure out how... so I went ahead and tried to start the car up using the stock tune without the vortec head maps... car wouldn't start. Went back to the vortec tune and car started with SES on and was running way way rich so I shut it off now happy that the car would at least start.
I then looked to my WUD with engine off to figure out what was going on with the code 34 (see attached image) which didn't seem right. I checked the vacuum ports and they are all taped up really good so I don't think I have a vacuum leak that is causing the problem. I am slightly concerned about sharing vacuum with the FPR but others haven't had any problems. This is shared with all new 1/8 hard line and I bolted the MAP sensor in the factory location. I have read that some people recommend mounting the MAP sensor so that the vacuum port is facing down... I have it facing forward again this doesn't seem like this should be my problem. So this brings me back to the WUD that says its seeing 100kpa and ~13lb at boost with the engine off. I am thinking my new ebay 2 bar map sensor is not working right. Anything I am missing? I need to be able to idle the car long enough to do a VE learn so I am kinda stuck...
Engine Specs:
357 (350 40 over)
edelbrock performer rpm heads
edelbrock headers
1.6 Roller Rockers
crane cams 2031 lift at cam is 292/302 (=467/482 with 1.6 rockers) with 264/270 duration and 112 lob sep (new part number here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-104225)
2 bar GM map sensor
22 lb injectors @ 48 PSI
Car fired up and it certainly felt to me like it was lean surging (rpms would increase quickly then drop then increase quickly then drop). It was only running for a few seconds before the SES came on so I shut her off to take a look at the code. I through a code 34. I tried to clear the code but couldn't figure out how... so I went ahead and tried to start the car up using the stock tune without the vortec head maps... car wouldn't start. Went back to the vortec tune and car started with SES on and was running way way rich so I shut it off now happy that the car would at least start.
I then looked to my WUD with engine off to figure out what was going on with the code 34 (see attached image) which didn't seem right. I checked the vacuum ports and they are all taped up really good so I don't think I have a vacuum leak that is causing the problem. I am slightly concerned about sharing vacuum with the FPR but others haven't had any problems. This is shared with all new 1/8 hard line and I bolted the MAP sensor in the factory location. I have read that some people recommend mounting the MAP sensor so that the vacuum port is facing down... I have it facing forward again this doesn't seem like this should be my problem. So this brings me back to the WUD that says its seeing 100kpa and ~13lb at boost with the engine off. I am thinking my new ebay 2 bar map sensor is not working right. Anything I am missing? I need to be able to idle the car long enough to do a VE learn so I am kinda stuck...
Engine Specs:
357 (350 40 over)
edelbrock performer rpm heads
edelbrock headers
1.6 Roller Rockers
crane cams 2031 lift at cam is 292/302 (=467/482 with 1.6 rockers) with 264/270 duration and 112 lob sep (new part number here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-104225)
2 bar GM map sensor
22 lb injectors @ 48 PSI
#2764
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Most definitely not a 2-bar MAP sensor. Or it is bad. At key-on, engine-off the MAP should be the same as barometric pressure, which at sea-level is about 104 KPa (it varies).
A code 34 is MAP low, sure it wasn't a code 33, which is MAP high. That one I would expect.
Need to fix the MAP issue first, then try starting and tuning.
A few months ago another EBL user got a 3-bar MAP off eBay. It most certainly wasn't... You can use the Diagnostic display to get the actual sensor values.
RBob.
A code 34 is MAP low, sure it wasn't a code 33, which is MAP high. That one I would expect.
Need to fix the MAP issue first, then try starting and tuning.
A few months ago another EBL user got a 3-bar MAP off eBay. It most certainly wasn't... You can use the Diagnostic display to get the actual sensor values.
RBob.
#2765
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Most definitely not a 2-bar MAP sensor. Or it is bad. At key-on, engine-off the MAP should be the same as barometric pressure, which at sea-level is about 104 KPa (it varies).
A code 34 is MAP low, sure it wasn't a code 33, which is MAP high. That one I would expect.
Need to fix the MAP issue first, then try starting and tuning.
A few months ago another EBL user got a 3-bar MAP off eBay. It most certainly wasn't... You can use the Diagnostic display to get the actual sensor values.
RBob.
A code 34 is MAP low, sure it wasn't a code 33, which is MAP high. That one I would expect.
Need to fix the MAP issue first, then try starting and tuning.
A few months ago another EBL user got a 3-bar MAP off eBay. It most certainly wasn't... You can use the Diagnostic display to get the actual sensor values.
RBob.
I double checked the code 34 map low; and all three boxes are shown for that code. I can't get the car to start now but when cranking it only shows like 10 kpa... this still seems all wrong to me.
Last edited by bphage; 06-11-2013 at 03:42 PM. Reason: attachment
#2766
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Here is what I have on the Diagnostic display. The zero volts reading at 8 kpa seems about right for a two bar map sensor from looking at this site: http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/mapsensor.htm
I double checked the code 34 map low; and all three boxes are shown for that code. I can't get the car to start now but when cranking it only shows like 10 kpa... this still seems all wrong to me.
I double checked the code 34 map low; and all three boxes are shown for that code. I can't get the car to start now but when cranking it only shows like 10 kpa... this still seems all wrong to me.
I figured out that my green didn't have the 5 volts it should have, turned out the wire was not connected properly in the wiring pug that came with the sensor, quick fix and voltage now makes more sense. On to struggling with tuning.
#2767
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: z28, g92, 5psi paxton,42lbs,eblp4
Engine: 5.7 .040bore,195cc trickflow,tpis
Transmission: 5spd
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: Tuning with the EBL
ok, my car running closed loop, steady throttle and speed, o2 sensor swings to much to the lean side, enough to notice a little skip or miss. what parameter can I change so this wont happen. I have 42lbs injectors.
#2768
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Okay well using this: http://www.chevythunder.com/map_code_34.htm
I figured out that my green didn't have the 5 volts it should have, turned out the wire was not connected properly in the wiring pug that came with the sensor, quick fix and voltage now makes more sense. On to struggling with tuning.
I figured out that my green didn't have the 5 volts it should have, turned out the wire was not connected properly in the wiring pug that came with the sensor, quick fix and voltage now makes more sense. On to struggling with tuning.
RBob.
#2769
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
RBob.
#2772
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
My house is 1004 feet, more or less, and key on engine off MAP is typically 97 kPa.
( also 97 at 4400 RPM and WOT, so I think I'm flowing air OK )
I'd guess Indy should be 97 or 98 kPa key on engine off, typically.
#2773
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Thanks for the heads up!
I have been working on the VE learn in park running through the RPM range slowly (upto 3K rpm) and it is running much better. I don't understand how it idles well when warm in open loop but still won't hold idle once it goes into closed loop. I took it for a small drive in VE learn around the block at like 5 mph and it made a few more corrections.
I am trying to go slowly as I don't want to ruin my new engine. Heck... I am still tightening the header bolts with heat cycling so I know I have exhaust leaks which then go away after i tighten it... I hope this goes away with several more heat cycles. Here is the VE curve that is developing; does this seem reasonable so far? Also I don't understand the effects of an exhaust leak in the VE table anything I need to look for?
Thanks guys... back to reading these posts so I know what to do next
Last edited by bphage; 06-12-2013 at 06:40 PM.
#2774
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: z28, g92, 5psi paxton,42lbs,eblp4
Engine: 5.7 .040bore,195cc trickflow,tpis
Transmission: 5spd
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: Tuning with the EBL
ok ,prp gain vs o2 error,prp gain multiplier vs airflow,prp duration vs o2 error,prp duration offset vs airflow and ae map pw,ae tps pw ,all multiplied by .5 drove the car and it feels much smoother.
is it ok to change all of this prp tables.
is it ok to change all of this prp tables.
#2775
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I have been working on the VE learn in park running through the RPM range slowly (upto 3K rpm) and it is running much better. I don't understand how it idles well when warm in open loop but still won't hold idle once it goes into closed loop. I took it for a small drive in VE learn around the block at like 5 mph and it made a few more corrections.
I am trying to go slowly as I don't want to ruin my new engine. Heck... I am still tightening the header bolts with heat cycling so I know I have exhaust leaks which then go away after i tighten it... I hope this goes away with several more heat cycles. Here is the VE curve that is developing; does this seem reasonable so far? Also I don't understand the effects of an exhaust leak in the VE table anything I need to look for?
Thanks guys... back to reading these posts so I know what to do next
Thanks guys... back to reading these posts so I know what to do next
RBob.
#2777
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
With that cam the idle should be fine. May need to reduce the idle SA compensation and/or reduce the proportional gains.
An exhaust leak will cause the ECM to add fuel, as the O2 sensor will be reporting lean. Not sure about the 25 KPa column of the VE table. Not sure as I'm not sure if that area was hit in the VE Learn, it is higher then the 20 & 30 KPa columns.
RBob.
An exhaust leak will cause the ECM to add fuel, as the O2 sensor will be reporting lean. Not sure about the 25 KPa column of the VE table. Not sure as I'm not sure if that area was hit in the VE Learn, it is higher then the 20 & 30 KPa columns.
RBob.
Sigh... I swear I am searching but I just don't see an answer to this... when I took the IROC around I noticed the MPH wasn't showing on the EBL. Vader Had a nice post as to the importance of the VSS signal Here: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...terrelate.html
So I need to trouble shoot the VSS signal - I know the wire is in the right place from the conversion, I have the correct gears in the transmission and I have a mechanical cable that goes to the speedo so I believe the VSS is behind the gauges... I know its not on the transmission. I have a b&m shifter with the park/neutral safety switch always on so it would be possible to start in any gear, but I don't think this would interfere with the VSS. Is it possible there is a setting somewhere that I missed on the EBL for the VSS signal? Also, can I continue to tune with the EBL without the VSS signal or must I fix that first?
#2778
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Need to un-check the MagVs option flag:
Option Word 3 - Bit 4 - MagVs
Also change the VSS PPM to 2002:
VSS - Pulse Per Mile
The included calibrations are set up for a magnetic VSS and 4K PPM. That is for the '90 - '92 TPI cars.
RBob.
Option Word 3 - Bit 4 - MagVs
Also change the VSS PPM to 2002:
VSS - Pulse Per Mile
The included calibrations are set up for a magnetic VSS and 4K PPM. That is for the '90 - '92 TPI cars.
RBob.
#2779
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
#2780
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: z28, g92, 5psi paxton,42lbs,eblp4
Engine: 5.7 .040bore,195cc trickflow,tpis
Transmission: 5spd
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: Tuning with the EBL
here is a log of my car at idle. blms are 128 steady and sa are 19 to 20, but idle speed goes up and down. cant figure this out.
mine u joints are still holding! so far.
mine u joints are still holding! so far.
#2781
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
If the car doesn't need to pass an idle sniffer test the easiest fix is to set it for open loop idle. Set this flag:
Option Word 1 - Bit 2 - OpIdl
Otherwise, work with this parameter:
PRP - Prop Gain Offset for Idle
Increase a bit at a time until the INT and idle settles down. Need enough prop gain to keep the ECM happy with a steady INT. If the starts to rise & fall quickly then there is too much prop gain.
RBob.
#2782
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Long story short with the MAF the car idled in the 600 rpm range, I am unsure if the VE table is lean enough in the lower RPMs to allow for the correct idle?
Here is what I have tried. I changed the high and low compensation tables. I increased upto 3 deg and resulted in a worse idle, decreased it down as far as 1 deg and still made it worse so I reset it to default.
I then repeated the above using the aluminum head spark table, I have been using the stock table so far. The results were the same.
I have not yet tried the proportional gains mostly because I don't understand it yet and have been trying to find existing posts on it before trying but it is now next on the list of things to try.
It seemed that under the current settings it would like a higher idle. So I added 225 rpm to the in gear and park tables and the car now idles in the high 700s to low 800rpm range. So now if I start cold and let it warm up the car idles rock solid but once it gets over 80deg or so it starts to have trouble I would describe it as a rolling idle.
So I have two problems, one it seems my idle is way to high and I am not sure what to do to get it lower other than starting to play with the proportional gains which I don't yet understand. I feel that my VE table in the idle range might be contributing but don't have the experience to know.
The second is now that have increased the idle it warms up and I get this unstable idle that is very similar but not as pronounced as it is when I had my idle set lower. I think they are linked but again don't understand how.
I have attached the warm idle data file if anyone would take a look at it.
Thanks in advance.
#2783
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Using the bin that would have a 'rolling idle' when warm I decreased the PRP - Prop Gain offset for idle from 2 to 1. It wouldn't seem to let me do less. This resulted in the car stalling out at idle. so I reset it back to 2.
I then decreased the PRP - Prop Gain Duration for idle from 32 to 25; i wan't sure if it made a change but it seem mildly better so I changed it from 25 to 15. The open loop fueling didn't seem to like it all that much but it quickly went into closed loop where it did seem to make an improvement. I have attached that data log.
I then went to the original idle table (i.e. I removed the extra 225 rpm I added) and decreased the prop gain to 15... remarkably the car didn't stall out, although it still seems to have a rolling idle. I have also attached that data log.
If anyone would be willing to take a look that would be great.
Thanks.
#2784
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
When the O2 sensor says "lean" the ECM responds by adding fuel.
Without getting too involved here ( you'll catch on ) if it's only a little lean, the ECM only adds a little fuel. If the O2 says a lot lean, the ECM adds more fuel.
If the prop gain settings are off, the ECM either adds too much, and goes into a loop fighting itself ( rolling or surging ) or doesn't add enough, and it falters.
Call it overshoot or undershoot, with the complication that undershoot can cause it to go into overshoot.
I found it easiest to lock down spark, so I know that isn't adding complications, and work on the prop gains alone until it got smooth enough for me.
I also disabled stall saver ( by setting the RPM way low ) and let it stall while working on that, again to eliminate additional confusion on my part.
Keep in mind that the prop gains work off of the INT, not the BLM. Prop gain and INT are fast. Faster than the VE table, which is BLM.
If VE is right, but prop gain is off, you'll have an unstable idle, but on average, the AFR will still be very close. That's a hint.
Last edited by Cflick; 06-15-2013 at 09:18 AM.
#2785
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
RBob.
#2786
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Okay I played with the proportional gains here is what I found... I just don't understand it.
Using the bin that would have a 'rolling idle' when warm I decreased the PRP - Prop Gain offset for idle from 2 to 1. It wouldn't seem to let me do less. This resulted in the car stalling out at idle. so I reset it back to 2.
I then decreased the PRP - Prop Gain Duration for idle from 32 to 25; i wan't sure if it made a change but it seem mildly better so I changed it from 25 to 15. The open loop fueling didn't seem to like it all that much but it quickly went into closed loop where it did seem to make an improvement. I have attached that data log.
I then went to the original idle table (i.e. I removed the extra 225 rpm I added) and decreased the prop gain to 15... remarkably the car didn't stall out, although it still seems to have a rolling idle. I have also attached that data log.
If anyone would be willing to take a look that would be great.
Thanks.
Using the bin that would have a 'rolling idle' when warm I decreased the PRP - Prop Gain offset for idle from 2 to 1. It wouldn't seem to let me do less. This resulted in the car stalling out at idle. so I reset it back to 2.
I then decreased the PRP - Prop Gain Duration for idle from 32 to 25; i wan't sure if it made a change but it seem mildly better so I changed it from 25 to 15. The open loop fueling didn't seem to like it all that much but it quickly went into closed loop where it did seem to make an improvement. I have attached that data log.
I then went to the original idle table (i.e. I removed the extra 225 rpm I added) and decreased the prop gain to 15... remarkably the car didn't stall out, although it still seems to have a rolling idle. I have also attached that data log.
If anyone would be willing to take a look that would be great.
Thanks.
The IAC counts are too high, need to open the throttle blades to get them in the 20 - 30 range on a warm idle, no other loads. Don't worry about the TPS voltage unless it goes over .75 volts or so.
Change this value to 25.5:
IAC - Volt Drop for Steps
This will prevent the IAC from bumping the idle due to the fluctuating system voltage. Which also needs to be looked at. At idle the IGN+ voltage is low, it varies between 11.9 and 13.0 volts.
The fuel pump voltage is even lower at 11.0 to 11.5 volts. The oil pressure switch and/or fuel pump relay may be bad.
Before I forget, set this value to 1100 RPM:
BLM - Idle Cell RPM Threshold
That will prevent the BLM from getting reset each time the idle RPM goes to 800.
The O2 sensor signal is totally foobar. Not sure what to think of it, although the engine does respond (it surges) when it shows the AFR going toward the lean side. But the signal is all wrong.
Double check that the O2 ground wire is good, ECM pin E15 to the engine block (TAN).
And the signal wire from E14 to the sensor (PPL). It also may be that the sensor is bad.
Can't really do more tuning until there is a good O2 signal and the system voltage is steadier.
RBob.
#2787
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Briefly, ( and incomplete, but should get you in the right direction )
When the O2 sensor says "lean" the ECM responds by adding fuel.
Without getting too involved here ( you'll catch on ) if it's only a little lean, the ECM only adds a little fuel. If the O2 says a lot lean, the ECM adds more fuel.
If the prop gain settings are off, the ECM either adds too much, and goes into a loop fighting itself ( rolling or surging ) or doesn't add enough, and it falters.
Call it overshoot or undershoot, with the complication that undershoot can cause it to go into overshoot.
I found it easiest to lock down spark, so I know that isn't adding complications, and work on the prop gains alone until it got smooth enough for me.
I also disabled stall saver ( by setting the RPM way low ) and let it stall while working on that, again to eliminate additional confusion on my part.
Keep in mind that the prop gains work off of the INT, not the BLM. Prop gain and INT are fast. Faster than the VE table, which is BLM.
If VE is right, but prop gain is off, you'll have an unstable idle, but on average, the AFR will still be very close. That's a hint.
When the O2 sensor says "lean" the ECM responds by adding fuel.
Without getting too involved here ( you'll catch on ) if it's only a little lean, the ECM only adds a little fuel. If the O2 says a lot lean, the ECM adds more fuel.
If the prop gain settings are off, the ECM either adds too much, and goes into a loop fighting itself ( rolling or surging ) or doesn't add enough, and it falters.
Call it overshoot or undershoot, with the complication that undershoot can cause it to go into overshoot.
I found it easiest to lock down spark, so I know that isn't adding complications, and work on the prop gains alone until it got smooth enough for me.
I also disabled stall saver ( by setting the RPM way low ) and let it stall while working on that, again to eliminate additional confusion on my part.
Keep in mind that the prop gains work off of the INT, not the BLM. Prop gain and INT are fast. Faster than the VE table, which is BLM.
If VE is right, but prop gain is off, you'll have an unstable idle, but on average, the AFR will still be very close. That's a hint.
#2788
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Thanks, I thought that was the case. I used tuner pro's smoothing to get the pre-VE learn curve. After that its been nothing but VE learns. I didn't want to really think about smoothing factors so I left it as default; I will need to go back and change that as its clear I have a few other things to work out.
#2789
Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Convertable
Engine: 350 Cam, Heads, Heders...etc.
Transmission: 700-r4 "Raptor"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Change this value to 25.5: IAC - Volt Drop for Steps
This will prevent the IAC from bumping the idle due to the fluctuating system voltage. Which also needs to be looked at. At idle the IGN+ voltage is low, it varies between 11.9 and 13.0 volts.
The fuel pump voltage is even lower at 11.0 to 11.5 volts. The oil pressure switch and/or fuel pump relay may be bad.
This will prevent the IAC from bumping the idle due to the fluctuating system voltage. Which also needs to be looked at. At idle the IGN+ voltage is low, it varies between 11.9 and 13.0 volts.
The fuel pump voltage is even lower at 11.0 to 11.5 volts. The oil pressure switch and/or fuel pump relay may be bad.
The fuel pump wiring does have some resistance to it... I now forget what wiring diameter GM used but if you ever measure the resistance it drops like 1-.5 volts or so from the relay to the pump. I was thinking of running a new larger wire to deal with the aeromotive stealth 340's higher amp draw, but given the short distance of the wire and amperage it was more than sufficient even though the resistance was less than ideal. Also by the time this becomes a restriction on the fuel pump I know I will be adding an external fuel pump so it was a bit of a mute point at the time. The Fuel pressure at the rail is stable despite this voltage change. I know the relay is okay, I don't remember if I checked the oil pressure switch, but my oil sending unit is FUBAR too so I will probably just replace both when I go to put in larger injectors for the turbo this summer.
The O2 sensor signal is totally foobar. Not sure what to think of it, although the engine does respond (it surges) when it shows the AFR going toward the lean side. But the signal is all wrong.
Double check that the O2 ground wire is good, ECM pin E15 to the engine block (TAN).
And the signal wire from E14 to the sensor (PPL). It also may be that the sensor is bad.
Can't really do more tuning until there is a good O2 signal and the system voltage is steadier.
RBob.
Double check that the O2 ground wire is good, ECM pin E15 to the engine block (TAN).
And the signal wire from E14 to the sensor (PPL). It also may be that the sensor is bad.
Can't really do more tuning until there is a good O2 signal and the system voltage is steadier.
RBob.
Thanks so much guys - I attached the idle I was seeing just in case someone else runs into this crazy problem.
Last edited by bphage; 06-15-2013 at 07:00 PM.
#2791
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: Chevy G20 van
Engine: L05 350 TBI
Transmission: TH700
Re: Tuning with the EBL
As there was serious hissing sound in passenger side of throttle body bought some weeks ago new TBI gasket and PCV. Yesterday got those installed and stock gasket had completely collapsed in area of IAT passages and ported vacuum labyrinth.
Now I got idle back...
Edit: forget to state that MPG (or km per liter) value jumped about 10-20 %. Best I got before was 4-6 when driving with very light throttle in even road & speed. Now I get 5-8 in urban driving. That's E85 so not bad at all as 5 is 20 liters per 100 km which was about same it was consuming 95E gas with stock cam before.
#2792
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Need a refresher... attempting to pass emissions, and I don't remember what I need to do O2-wise. The headers have a stock location for a non heated sensor, and a location near the converter that I use for the wideband sensor. Will it freak out if I put the n/b in the stock location and unplug the w/b? I'm not 100% sure the w/b is functioning correctly. I believe the TBI may have the classic leak around the throttle blade shaft, have yet to verify that though.
#2793
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Leave your WB where it is as long as it is PRE cat. Put a heated (3 or 4 wire) NB O2 in the headers. Or add another bung close to where the WB is, but that is more work. I have my WB in the passenger side header collector and the NB in the drivers side header collector. Seems to work fine, but I haven't gone closed loop yet. NB still reports on the WUD though. Why do you not think the WB is working correctly? Exhaust leaks will affect the WB. The throttle shaft will just cause poor/inconsistant running, not the WBs fault it's reporting rich or lean because the engine has a vacuum leak. If you have a BB TBI I was able to get a guy locally that rebuilds Holleys to bush it. The shafts are almost identical in diameter.
#2794
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
It passed emissions 2 years in a row as it sits. I've changed a couple tune things here & there but it was so long ago I don't remember what. The exhaust is a crossover type, where the w/b is. I'll be using either type of n/b, whatever was stock on the truck... only one I see listed is 1-wire, so it'll probably be one of those.
#2796
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Good to know except for the fact I'll be running the 1-wire like I originally posted, if that's what it had to begin with.
#2797
Supreme Member
iTrader: (-3)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,184
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Hey guys I'm in the process of rebuilding the little stock LO3 and my tune was 95% complete before I tore it apart .. AFR was within .5 all across the rpm and map range in open loop , never ran it in closed loop ... It already had 1.6 rockers , CFM tech TB , headers, and full 3" exhaust with a 3" cutout for the track ... I was running the stock injectors @ 16 psi ... And I will be using the 350 68# ? Injectors when I get it back together with a VRFPR .. And I was just wondering what I should do with the tune before initial firing of the engine ? ... It will be around 10-10.5:1 CR , .488 .495 cam lift with 270* dur advertised + the 1.6 rockers so .528 lift on exhaust , Summit stage 1 intake , ported LO3 heads , heads intake headers etc. all port matched and I think that's about it ... Thanks for any input !
#2798
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Suit yourself. A heated O2 will go into closed loop a lot quicker and stay there. My car originally came with a 1 wire O2 and in cold weather, even after warm up it would cycle between closed and open loop. A heated (3-wire) O2 took care of that.
#2799
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Car: 84 TA / 89 Formula
Engine: LS1 / L03
Transmission: T56 / 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.73 / 3.27
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Hey guys I'm in the process of rebuilding the little stock LO3 and my tune was 95% complete before I tore it apart .. AFR was within .5 all across the rpm and map range in open loop , never ran it in closed loop ... It already had 1.6 rockers , CFM tech TB , headers, and full 3" exhaust with a 3" cutout for the track ... I was running the stock injectors @ 16 psi ... And I will be using the 350 68# ? Injectors when I get it back together with a VRFPR .. And I was just wondering what I should do with the tune before initial firing of the engine ? ... It will be around 10-10.5:1 CR , .488 .495 cam lift with 270* dur advertised + the 1.6 rockers so .528 lift on exhaust , Summit stage 1 intake , ported LO3 heads , heads intake headers etc. all port matched and I think that's about it ... Thanks for any input !
bottom end is a rebuilt stocker with new pistons for that kind of CR?
#2800
Supreme Member
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Sleep,
I did a somewhat similar TBI motor a few years back w TFS23d heads,
a Comp Cams roller single pattern 269 duration, .528 lift w 1.6 roller rockers.
Overlap was 53d and 108d LSA. I used #80 BB injectors running 20psi at WOT,
10psi at idle. Injector DC was <80%. Used EBL BTW.
I did a somewhat similar TBI motor a few years back w TFS23d heads,
a Comp Cams roller single pattern 269 duration, .528 lift w 1.6 roller rockers.
Overlap was 53d and 108d LSA. I used #80 BB injectors running 20psi at WOT,
10psi at idle. Injector DC was <80%. Used EBL BTW.