Tuning with the EBL
#1801
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: New Tranny ?
I agree I don't think its necessarily a tuning issue... more like a tuner issue though...lol
I had to get thru a tranny leak and coolant temp switch today that wasn't working.
What I need to do is datalog
The car runs fine..smells rich. It did this last summer to and I was never really able to get it fixed or resolved. In the fall however it acted a lot better.
This is what I noticed after going into CL.
INT would slowly drop to 80
BLM's to 108
This was all at idle
I watched my o2 sensor and it was crossing over the crossover points
Once I would rev it
INT would jump back up to 128 along with the BLM's then as it would begin to idle again it would drop back down to 80. Still in CL
So i think its a idle issue.
This was done while in Park
Fall of last year I didn't have this issue.
I will try and get a real datalog done tomorrow.
thanks
I had to get thru a tranny leak and coolant temp switch today that wasn't working.
What I need to do is datalog
The car runs fine..smells rich. It did this last summer to and I was never really able to get it fixed or resolved. In the fall however it acted a lot better.
This is what I noticed after going into CL.
INT would slowly drop to 80
BLM's to 108
This was all at idle
I watched my o2 sensor and it was crossing over the crossover points
Once I would rev it
INT would jump back up to 128 along with the BLM's then as it would begin to idle again it would drop back down to 80. Still in CL
So i think its a idle issue.
This was done while in Park
Fall of last year I didn't have this issue.
I will try and get a real datalog done tomorrow.
thanks
nintyone is having somewhat of the same issue:
thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/645211-rich-vacuum-leak.html
He needed to reduce the VE table by 10 to 20 %.
I've thought of a couple of items that may be causing it. The vapor purge system is one (CCP). Although it shouldn't be active at idle it may not be operating properly. Sitting all Winter the canister would have quite a bit of fuel in it.
It may be purging which will cause the INT/BLMs to drop.
Another one is interesting, was the car being run in the garage? Or in an area where the exhaust may be getting fed back into the engine? Less O2 in the air will cause the INT/BLM to drop.
Is there EGR on the engine? Maybe it is leaking exhaust into the intake.
Maybe the fuel composition changed while the car was sitting.
RBob.
#1802
Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: Corvette
Engine: 388 HSR custom Cam see sig
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: D44 3:45
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I've attached 2 short datalogs.
1 is while in Park n idle
2 is a short drive.
Any insight would be much appreciated.
thanks
1 is while in Park n idle
2 is a short drive.
Any insight would be much appreciated.
thanks
#1803
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Haven't been able to catch this in a datalog yet, but as soon as I touch the throttle from an idle in drive, my WB dips down to 10:1 and she bogs way down for just an instant. This can be reproduced without invoking AE (I believe, I want to log it to be sure). If not AE, what could the cause be? I saw a thread where the guy ended up lowering the AE threshhold and then using the lowest AE setting to pull fuel. I'm gonna try this as soon as my laptop battery is charged again.
Also, concerning WOT VE learns via WB, does PE need to be disabled? What I find as I'm at WOT, the position in the VE table is jumping around too much for the box to turn green I think. The middle and upper VE tables are hard to get steady without a mountain road handy!
Also, concerning WOT VE learns via WB, does PE need to be disabled? What I find as I'm at WOT, the position in the VE table is jumping around too much for the box to turn green I think. The middle and upper VE tables are hard to get steady without a mountain road handy!
#1804
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Compared to the factory 7747 I was using before, the EBL doesn't seem to do really any fast idling at startup. I think the factory setup did too much, but maybe it's too little now, like it fires up and then idles rough for a while around maybe 700 RPM or less before workings its way even lower. I know there is a table of idle speed vs. temp, is that what I should work on, or is there also some sort of timed high idle on startup?
#1805
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Haven't been able to catch this in a datalog yet, but as soon as I touch the throttle from an idle in drive, my WB dips down to 10:1 and she bogs way down for just an instant. This can be reproduced without invoking AE (I believe, I want to log it to be sure). If not AE, what could the cause be? I saw a thread where the guy ended up lowering the AE threshhold and then using the lowest AE setting to pull fuel. I'm gonna try this as soon as my laptop battery is charged again.
Also, concerning WOT VE learns via WB, does PE need to be disabled? What I find as I'm at WOT, the position in the VE table is jumping around too much for the box to turn green I think. The middle and upper VE tables are hard to get steady without a mountain road handy!
Also, concerning WOT VE learns via WB, does PE need to be disabled? What I find as I'm at WOT, the position in the VE table is jumping around too much for the box to turn green I think. The middle and upper VE tables are hard to get steady without a mountain road handy!
Leave the ECM in PE mode when doing WOT VE Learns. I've run into the same thing with the RPM climbing too quickly to get a good learn during WOT. Making sure to start out on the rich side and using a higher gear helps.
RBob.
#1806
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Compared to the factory 7747 I was using before, the EBL doesn't seem to do really any fast idling at startup. I think the factory setup did too much, but maybe it's too little now, like it fires up and then idles rough for a while around maybe 700 RPM or less before workings its way even lower. I know there is a table of idle speed vs. temp, is that what I should work on, or is there also some sort of timed high idle on startup?
Can increase the idle RPM via the IAC idle speed tables. There is one for in P/N and another for in drive.
The roughness may be from it being a bit on the rich side.
RBob.
#1807
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Make sure that on a warmed up engine and no other loads on it that the IAC steps are between 5 and 10. Adjust the idle stop screw to get these steps.
Can increase the idle RPM via the IAC idle speed tables. There is one for in P/N and another for in drive.
The roughness may be from it being a bit on the rich side.
RBob.
Can increase the idle RPM via the IAC idle speed tables. There is one for in P/N and another for in drive.
The roughness may be from it being a bit on the rich side.
RBob.
#1808
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
So raised the CTS threshold for closed loop a couple of degrees to hold it off for another minute.
RBob.
#1809
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Had some strange behavior around idle today. I didn't notice anything performance wise, but watching the display while idling the BLM values started ramping up and hit 172, which I assume is the max. Previously it has been happy at idle. I had it in learn mode and while driving around it was filling in with small values, like plus or minus 2-3 in correction in non-idle areas. Around idle (low RPM, low MAP) the values shoot up to 12. I could lightly feather the throttle at idle and see the BLM jump abruptly from 128 to 172.
One theory is that maybe it went closed loop before the O2 was ready, got a bad BLM value in that idle area, and then it sort of stuck and I saw the big BLM on the display any time it crossed into that BLM range. ?
I think I don't understand how the system works with respect to learning around idle. It looked to me like, even though it said it was in closed loop, it often sticks with a certain value without updating. Is there some sort of lockout?
On one occasion I also noticed it drop out of closed loop at idle. Revving the engine got it to snap back in. Does that indicate an issue with the O2? It doesn't quite make sense because after revving it and getting it back in, it seemed like it would be happy forever. I have a heated O2 also.
Thanks for any help.
One theory is that maybe it went closed loop before the O2 was ready, got a bad BLM value in that idle area, and then it sort of stuck and I saw the big BLM on the display any time it crossed into that BLM range. ?
I think I don't understand how the system works with respect to learning around idle. It looked to me like, even though it said it was in closed loop, it often sticks with a certain value without updating. Is there some sort of lockout?
On one occasion I also noticed it drop out of closed loop at idle. Revving the engine got it to snap back in. Does that indicate an issue with the O2? It doesn't quite make sense because after revving it and getting it back in, it seemed like it would be happy forever. I have a heated O2 also.
Thanks for any help.
#1811
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Can you think of a reason why it would appear to me from the WUD that the BLM values were not updating even though it was in closed loop? Maybe it's related to learn vs. closed loop. I don't think I understand what the "learn" indicator is telling me, can you explain?
I was poking around the bin and found the table called (at work now, going off of memory) closed loop TPS thresholds or something like that. It has two values in it. If I'm understanding right, I think it would go out of closed loop with TPS below about 1.5%. Is that right? If so, I'm confused how the BLM values could have been changing on me at idle since my TPS goes to 0% when my foot is off. Any ideas?
Sorry for the question bombardment, but if I do have a cooling O2 problem, what can I do, either programming or hardware wise? I already have a 3-wire heated O2. If it cools off at idle irrespective of coolant temp, going off of CTS obviously won't help. In this case it was during warm up I think, but historically I've had high BLM at idle all the time. When I first fired up the EBL it was acting great at idle in closed loop, so I thought I was out of the woods.
I was poking around the bin and found the table called (at work now, going off of memory) closed loop TPS thresholds or something like that. It has two values in it. If I'm understanding right, I think it would go out of closed loop with TPS below about 1.5%. Is that right? If so, I'm confused how the BLM values could have been changing on me at idle since my TPS goes to 0% when my foot is off. Any ideas?
Sorry for the question bombardment, but if I do have a cooling O2 problem, what can I do, either programming or hardware wise? I already have a 3-wire heated O2. If it cools off at idle irrespective of coolant temp, going off of CTS obviously won't help. In this case it was during warm up I think, but historically I've had high BLM at idle all the time. When I first fired up the EBL it was acting great at idle in closed loop, so I thought I was out of the woods.
#1812
TGO Supporter
iTrader: (1)
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I think it would go out of closed loop with TPS below about 1.5%.
Maybe NB02 sensor is reflecting lack of grams/sec that may be occurring. Just a wild guess. Is you heated NB correctly wired?
#1813
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Is there a difference between open loop idle and plain old open loop? I think I may be missing a subtlety here. The WUD indicates closed loop even when the TPS is 0%. Maybe there is a timer or filter that keeps it closed loop for a little while or something?
#1814
TGO Supporter
iTrader: (1)
Re: Tuning with the EBL
It is just that EBL.xdf allows OL idle for a car that needs it due to cam overlap. Actuaully you can run OL up to say 15 mph if you like. I beleive you can hold OL further than <1% TPS as well.
I had a header collector leak once that caused BLM to rise to big numbers?
I had a header collector leak once that caused BLM to rise to big numbers?
#1815
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Can you think of a reason why it would appear to me from the WUD that the BLM values were not updating even though it was in closed loop? Maybe it's related to learn vs. closed loop. I don't think I understand what the "learn" indicator is telling me, can you explain?
I was poking around the bin and found the table called (at work now, going off of memory) closed loop TPS thresholds or something like that. It has two values in it. If I'm understanding right, I think it would go out of closed loop with TPS below about 1.5%. Is that right? If so, I'm confused how the BLM values could have been changing on me at idle since my TPS goes to 0% when my foot is off. Any ideas?
Sorry for the question bombardment, but if I do have a cooling O2 problem, what can I do, either programming or hardware wise? I already have a 3-wire heated O2. If it cools off at idle irrespective of coolant temp, going off of CTS obviously won't help. In this case it was during warm up I think, but historically I've had high BLM at idle all the time. When I first fired up the EBL it was acting great at idle in closed loop, so I thought I was out of the woods.
I was poking around the bin and found the table called (at work now, going off of memory) closed loop TPS thresholds or something like that. It has two values in it. If I'm understanding right, I think it would go out of closed loop with TPS below about 1.5%. Is that right? If so, I'm confused how the BLM values could have been changing on me at idle since my TPS goes to 0% when my foot is off. Any ideas?
Sorry for the question bombardment, but if I do have a cooling O2 problem, what can I do, either programming or hardware wise? I already have a 3-wire heated O2. If it cools off at idle irrespective of coolant temp, going off of CTS obviously won't help. In this case it was during warm up I think, but historically I've had high BLM at idle all the time. When I first fired up the EBL it was acting great at idle in closed loop, so I thought I was out of the woods.
When learn is enabled the BLM is allowed to move. Learn can be disabled for various reasons, low or high RPM, or a low or high MAP can do it. These are calibration parameters, so will also vary in thresholds.
The BLM follows the INT. Once the INT is so far from 128, the BLM will then move. But, the ECM also needs to see that this is required.
If the AFR is lean, and the INT is less then 128, the BLM won't follow. As the INT will need to increase first to bring the AFR richer. There are timers for much of this stuff too.
The INT and BLM will only be updated at certain intervals.
There aren't any closed loop TPS% thresholds. Although the closed throttle TPS% thresholds come into play if the forced open loop idle is selected. The TPS% thresholds are also used to define which BLM cell to use.
O2 sensor cooling off: maybe the heater is open. Or that the voltage to the sensor heater is being turned off.
RBob.
#1816
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Did you see it mostly at idle, or across the board? My O2 is before the collector. It actually only reads two cylinders on one side. My headers are emission style though, with ports for AIR, which I have plugged. I noticed the plugs are not sealed very tight - kinda loose with crusted old sealant. I wonder if that could be enough to cause trouble. I resealed them with copper RTV just now...
#1817
100% VE
My VE tables are at 100 % in some areas, so I need to increase cylinder volume by a little bit to allow more headroom, correct?
After that, is there an easy way to adjust the ve tables all at once? what percentage multiplier should I use per given increase in displacement value?
After that, is there an easy way to adjust the ve tables all at once? what percentage multiplier should I use per given increase in displacement value?
#1818
Supreme Member
Re: 100% VE
My VE tables are at 100 % in some areas, so I need to increase cylinder volume by a little bit to allow more headroom, correct?
After that, is there an easy way to adjust the ve tables all at once? what percentage multiplier should I use per given increase in displacement value?
After that, is there an easy way to adjust the ve tables all at once? what percentage multiplier should I use per given increase in displacement value?
1. Increase Injector Bias especially if u are getting sort of a bathtub pattern in the VE table.
2. If that doesn't help w Inj. Duty Cycle and VE, increase fuel pressure. You'll need to change the Base PW constant. It also may affect idle if you can't get PW low enough to control idle. This is why I loved what RBob did with the variable BPW table for using a VAFPR. Worked great in my 84 Xfire.
#1819
Re: 100% VE
I'd actually do a couple of things.
1. Increase Injector Bias especially if u are getting sort of a bathtub pattern in the VE table.
2. If that doesn't help w Inj. Duty Cycle and VE, increase fuel pressure. You'll need to change the Base PW constant. It also may affect idle if you can't get PW low enough to control idle. This is why I loved what RBob did with the variable BPW table for using a VAFPR. Worked great in my 84 Xfire.
1. Increase Injector Bias especially if u are getting sort of a bathtub pattern in the VE table.
2. If that doesn't help w Inj. Duty Cycle and VE, increase fuel pressure. You'll need to change the Base PW constant. It also may affect idle if you can't get PW low enough to control idle. This is why I loved what RBob did with the variable BPW table for using a VAFPR. Worked great in my 84 Xfire.
Not quite sure whose confused here lol (although its probably me with my unfamiliarity with the terms you mention). As far as I understand it, 100% Ve just happens sometimes, and in EBL, all you have to do is increase the BPW a little bit to allow a little more headroom. In the P4 flash, there is now BPW, so can either increase injector constant or cylinder volume, and then relearn VE. But I was wondering what the correlation was between BPW and VE %.
I have plenty of injector, so I don't see the need to increase fuel pressure or fight idle problems.
#1820
Supreme Member
Re: 100% VE
100% VE says your out of injector. That doesn't mean you don't have enough injector per se, just that it's pretty much opened as long as possible and can't supply enough fuel given current parameters. I know EBL will show you Inj. Duty Cycle ( another great piece of info for tuning). I suspect your DC is up there in the areas of 100% VE. They may be going static. I suggested increasing the Inj. Bias first. The analogy to Inj. Bias is like timing advance for Spark Advance. The Injector opening occurs sooner so more of the injector pulse width is spent actually delivering fuel and not just opening. BPC stays the same but
"effective" PW increases. Therefore, you can reduce the VE necessary.
"effective" PW increases. Therefore, you can reduce the VE necessary.
#1821
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: 100% VE
To reduce the VE table the injector flow rate needs to be reduced, or the cylinder volume increased. The lower flow rate would have the injector open longer for the same amount of fuel.
The VE% is a multiplier to the PW calculation. So it should be a straight percentage change to the VE table to lower the injector PW back to the original value.
RBob.
#1822
Re: 100% VE
Is this really true? I've heard this a lot but can't make sense of it. I thought 100% VE means that the engine is working 100% efficiently, like 100% of the theoretical volume of air passing through the cylinders requires matching fuel to reach the desired AFR. I'm sure I got that a little wrong, but I think it is a function of the physical specifications of the engine. The injector comes into play only because VE is being inferred from what you told the computer about flow rate. I think VE should always be the same as long as you tell the computer the true flow rate, regardless of what it is.
Certainly it would be possible to hit 100% VE at low RPM without being out of injector, right?
Certainly it would be possible to hit 100% VE at low RPM without being out of injector, right?
#1823
Re: Tuning with the EBL
So I should drop the flow rate by a percentage, and then drop my ve tables by that same percentage? I realize I'm making this more difficult than it should be lol.
#1824
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Closed loop enables the INTegrator to move along with having proportional gains active. These force the AFR to oscillate.
When learn is enabled the BLM is allowed to move. Learn can be disabled for various reasons, low or high RPM, or a low or high MAP can do it. These are calibration parameters, so will also vary in thresholds.
The BLM follows the INT. Once the INT is so far from 128, the BLM will then move. But, the ECM also needs to see that this is required.
If the AFR is lean, and the INT is less then 128, the BLM won't follow. As the INT will need to increase first to bring the AFR richer. There are timers for much of this stuff too.
The INT and BLM will only be updated at certain intervals.
There aren't any closed loop TPS% thresholds. Although the closed throttle TPS% thresholds come into play if the forced open loop idle is selected. The TPS% thresholds are also used to define which BLM cell to use.
When learn is enabled the BLM is allowed to move. Learn can be disabled for various reasons, low or high RPM, or a low or high MAP can do it. These are calibration parameters, so will also vary in thresholds.
The BLM follows the INT. Once the INT is so far from 128, the BLM will then move. But, the ECM also needs to see that this is required.
If the AFR is lean, and the INT is less then 128, the BLM won't follow. As the INT will need to increase first to bring the AFR richer. There are timers for much of this stuff too.
The INT and BLM will only be updated at certain intervals.
There aren't any closed loop TPS% thresholds. Although the closed throttle TPS% thresholds come into play if the forced open loop idle is selected. The TPS% thresholds are also used to define which BLM cell to use.
#1825
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Another question in my quest for understanding: under what circumstances will I be in closed loop with learn and not see the VE table updating in the WUD? This happened last night while I was trying to tune. I waited for it to go closed in learn, then switched over to the VE display (learn was enabled in WUD) and it would not ever "go green". And it really looked to me like it was dwelling in certain cells for plenty of time. I finally just drove off and it eventually started filling stuff in. Thanks.
When the "Learn" flag in the WUD is active, it means the BLM's can be updated, not that VE learning is active. If VE learning is on, you will probably see the VE table updating some time after the "Learn" light has come on. (Provided, of course, you are using the BLM's for VE learns.)
#1826
Re: Tuning with the EBL
When the "Learn" flag in the WUD is active, it means the BLM's can be updated, not that VE learning is active. If VE learning is on, you will probably see the VE table updating some time after the "Learn" light has come on. (Provided, of course, you are using the BLM's for VE learns.)
#1827
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Still assuming you are working with BLM VE learns, you will need to be in closed loop with EGR and CCP disabled, and within the temp range described in the preferences dialog box. Might also have to keep lean cruise disabled as well.
Just make sure coolant temp is set to be in your normal operating range if you've changed thermostats or something. AFAIK that's it.
#1828
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Still assuming you are working with BLM VE learns, you will need to be in closed loop with EGR and CCP disabled, and within the temp range described in the preferences dialog box. Might also have to keep lean cruise disabled as well.
Just make sure coolant temp is set to be in your normal operating range if you've changed thermostats or something. AFAIK that's it.
Just make sure coolant temp is set to be in your normal operating range if you've changed thermostats or something. AFAIK that's it.
#1829
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Car: 84 TA / 89 Formula
Engine: LS1 / L03
Transmission: T56 / 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.73 / 3.27
Re: 100% VE
I thought 100% VE means that the engine is working 100% efficiently, like 100% of the theoretical volume of air passing through the cylinders requires matching fuel to reach the desired AFR. I'm sure I got that a little wrong, but I think it is a function of the physical specifications of the engine. The injector comes into play only because VE is being inferred from what you told the computer about flow rate. I think VE should always be the same as long as you tell the computer the true flow rate, regardless of what it is.
In tuning, VE relates to the same quantity but the dimension is different, and as you said just based on the injector flow rate, so as it seems to me that's also why you can tweak the VE when messing with fuel pressure, injector flow rate etc without altering the engine, meaning its physical VE has not changed.
Hoping i got that right there but i know some of the usual subscribers of this thread are capable enough to correct me if that should be necessary
#1830
TGO Supporter
iTrader: (1)
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronny
I had a header collector leak once that caused BLM to rise to big numbers?
All areas/cells of VE table I happened to be in saw high BLM. Resulted in VE% over 100 in those areas that happened to be >80 lets say to begin with.
Originally Posted by Ronny
I had a header collector leak once that caused BLM to rise to big numbers?
All areas/cells of VE table I happened to be in saw high BLM. Resulted in VE% over 100 in those areas that happened to be >80 lets say to begin with.
#1831
Supreme Member
Re: Tuning with the EBL
One of the "tells" re: an air or vacuum leak is seeing EBL continuously adding fuel(max 12%) in the low MAP/low RPM sector. I fixed an exhaust leak and that immediately reversed the fueling issue.
#1832
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Any idea how much exhaust leak it takes? I have little plugs where my air pump lines used to go. They were not sealing very well, but it sure doesn't seem like much could get in there. And most times you'd think it would be exhaust going out... but then, with the tri-y headers there is supposed to be scavenging going on which might be sucking in, especially at low RPM.
Vacuum leak is a totally different animal I think. The ECM can properly compensate for extra intake air with more fuel. It's just like having extra throttle.
Vacuum leak is a totally different animal I think. The ECM can properly compensate for extra intake air with more fuel. It's just like having extra throttle.
#1833
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ALta, Ca
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1975 IHC Scout II
Engine: 1967 Buick 340 with TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Quick question. Will the ebl control a 99 vortec 4.3 distributor? I have an ebl that im.pulling off a buick v8 and putting on a vortec 4.3 with a 4bbl intake. Need to know if i can jse the vortec distributor or have to get a tbi distributor.
#1836
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Replacing that ICM with a small cap 8-pin module should do the trick. This will allow the ECM access to an EST/BYPASS line so that handshaking is complete and code 42 won't appear. And allow the use of the stock Vortec distributor and crank trigger.
RBob.
#1837
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ALta, Ca
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1975 IHC Scout II
Engine: 1967 Buick 340 with TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
From my understanding the Vortec engines use an ignition control module (ICM) that doesn't have an EST/BYPASS line. They also use a crank trigger on the timing cover, not in the distributor. Along with having the ICM on a small heat sink mounted somewhere on the engine.
Replacing that ICM with a small cap 8-pin module should do the trick. This will allow the ECM access to an EST/BYPASS line so that handshaking is complete and code 42 won't appear. And allow the use of the stock Vortec distributor and crank trigger.
RBob.
Replacing that ICM with a small cap 8-pin module should do the trick. This will allow the ECM access to an EST/BYPASS line so that handshaking is complete and code 42 won't appear. And allow the use of the stock Vortec distributor and crank trigger.
RBob.
#1838
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ALta, Ca
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1975 IHC Scout II
Engine: 1967 Buick 340 with TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
So 99 vortec 4.3 long block,should i start with the 4.3 timing tables or the vortec 5.7 tables?
#1839
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
RBob.
#1840
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Hi everyone.
Another EBL noob here!
I converted from a 165 ecm to the EBL P4, car is an 87 GTA with a mild-ish 383 First TPI intake
I have a starter bin to work with, I think I have most of the proper flags and scalars set, and have done a few ve learns to date. I have looked through this thread but cant seem to find an answer to my problem, so I thought to ask for some help.
My issues:
Fan #2 is on at WUD but off at fan. Fan does work when grounded, not sure if i goofed the repin here( dont think so), or other possible issue? I could jump from fan 1 to 2, I dont mind both coming on in unison if need be.
Second issue is my speedometer reading is off. I used the stock vss settings in the ebl bin file 3005. So now my WUD speedo reads 30mph when i am doing approx 50, so it is way off. I still need to install the correct speedometer gear in the tranny since my gear change, but i dont know if it would cause this much of a gap in readings? My clusters speedometer is off by about 15 percent.
This vss issue may be the cause for my third problem. Torque converter is not locking. Tcc flag is set, but i may have missed something. TCC does not flag on in WUD, even at speeds greater than 60mph. Not sure if i missed another flag or scalar setting. MY gear selector is working correctly and displays P/N in park and neutral, and 1/2 in drive, Od in 4th.
I have enclosed a photo of all the settings i can find regarding the vss and tcc settings.
Does anyone see a mis-match of flag settings or any other ideas to my situation?
I will say that so far i love the EBL, been only a few days messing with it but I know i will continue to enjoy it.
Thanks for looking.
Another EBL noob here!
I converted from a 165 ecm to the EBL P4, car is an 87 GTA with a mild-ish 383 First TPI intake
I have a starter bin to work with, I think I have most of the proper flags and scalars set, and have done a few ve learns to date. I have looked through this thread but cant seem to find an answer to my problem, so I thought to ask for some help.
My issues:
Fan #2 is on at WUD but off at fan. Fan does work when grounded, not sure if i goofed the repin here( dont think so), or other possible issue? I could jump from fan 1 to 2, I dont mind both coming on in unison if need be.
Second issue is my speedometer reading is off. I used the stock vss settings in the ebl bin file 3005. So now my WUD speedo reads 30mph when i am doing approx 50, so it is way off. I still need to install the correct speedometer gear in the tranny since my gear change, but i dont know if it would cause this much of a gap in readings? My clusters speedometer is off by about 15 percent.
This vss issue may be the cause for my third problem. Torque converter is not locking. Tcc flag is set, but i may have missed something. TCC does not flag on in WUD, even at speeds greater than 60mph. Not sure if i missed another flag or scalar setting. MY gear selector is working correctly and displays P/N in park and neutral, and 1/2 in drive, Od in 4th.
I have enclosed a photo of all the settings i can find regarding the vss and tcc settings.
Does anyone see a mis-match of flag settings or any other ideas to my situation?
I will say that so far i love the EBL, been only a few days messing with it but I know i will continue to enjoy it.
Thanks for looking.
#1841
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Vss ppm should be 2002! I've been asking so many questions in here myself I'm glad to finally be able to contribute something.
Also, I don't think the secondary cooling fan in our '165 cars was controlled by the ECM. Did you run extra wires between the ECM and secondary relay?
Also, I don't think the secondary cooling fan in our '165 cars was controlled by the ECM. Did you run extra wires between the ECM and secondary relay?
#1842
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 1987 Trans am GTA
Engine: D1sc 383
Transmission: t56
Axle/Gears: 4.11
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Vss ppm should be 2002! I've been asking so many questions in here myself I'm glad to finally be able to contribute something.
Also, I don't think the secondary cooling fan in our '165 cars was controlled by the ECM. Did you run extra wires between the ECM and secondary relay?
Also, I don't think the secondary cooling fan in our '165 cars was controlled by the ECM. Did you run extra wires between the ECM and secondary relay?
lol, thx.
I'll try the vss change.
#2 fan on 165 ecm was controlled by the temp switch on right side head and or the A/C switch. i didnt know i would need to run a new wire to ecm to control it with the the ebl?
I just looked at the p4 wiring schematic, and you are right, need to run the F pin from relay to f8 at ecm. Thx for the heads up.
#1843
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Alexandria, MN
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 84 Vette
Engine: 383 EBL Locker
Transmission: 700R4 Stage II Kit
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Here is one I don't beleive is related to the tune. I have an EBL flash unit and every once in a while when sitting at a stop light the idle jumps from 850 to 2000 and then slowly comes back down to 850 over the next 30 seconds. I don't beleive it is tune because I caught it on a log and found that the communication to the WUD was getting lost as the run time reset to zero for a few scans, then, everything went crazy for one scan, and then the fast idle started. Just like I had restarted the car. I have seen this before in the log when running at highway speed but thought it was my USB port since there were no ill effects on the motor running. However, when idling, it kind of gets your attention when the car jumps forward on a fast idle out of the blue. Has anyone else seen this? I am guessing I need to start wire chasing to see if there is a loose wire somehwere. Any suggestions where to start?
#1844
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Here is one I don't beleive is related to the tune. I have an EBL flash unit and every once in a while when sitting at a stop light the idle jumps from 850 to 2000 and then slowly comes back down to 850 over the next 30 seconds. I don't beleive it is tune because I caught it on a log and found that the communication to the WUD was getting lost as the run time reset to zero for a few scans, then, everything went crazy for one scan, and then the fast idle started. Just like I had restarted the car. I have seen this before in the log when running at highway speed but thought it was my USB port since there were no ill effects on the motor running. However, when idling, it kind of gets your attention when the car jumps forward on a fast idle out of the blue. Has anyone else seen this? I am guessing I need to start wire chasing to see if there is a loose wire somehwere. Any suggestions where to start?
RBob.
#1846
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ALta, Ca
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1975 IHC Scout II
Engine: 1967 Buick 340 with TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
So the vortec 4.3 was i believe about 200hp 260tq. Its running an edelbrock performer intake, no cats, free flowing exhaust. Would i be better to start with the 4.3 bin or 5.7 bin.
#1847
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'd try the 5.7l Vortec timing tables first. If GM used the same chamber design and a similar cam they will be a drop in. Can also set up a calibration with the standard/early 4.3l SA tables. Easy enough to flash in the two and switch between them.
RBob.
RBob.
RBob.
#1848
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ALta, Ca
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1975 IHC Scout II
Engine: 1967 Buick 340 with TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I planned on using the vortec timing tables first. Just wasent sure what bin would be closest from a fueling standpoint since thw vortec 4.3 is higher power than tbi 4.3. Also will 61lb injectors be to much. Maybe run a lower fuel pressure?
#1849
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
RBob.
#1850
TGO Supporter
iTrader: (1)
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Better off with smaller injs at higher pressure but you need a fuel pump that can accomodate. TBI injectors are good up to 35 lbs I hear. Maybe higher.
I run 75's at 26 lbs. seems car runs better at lower loads when pressure was cranked up from 19 lbs.
I run 75's at 26 lbs. seems car runs better at lower loads when pressure was cranked up from 19 lbs.