Cflick

Well, it looks a little wild to me, but I assume that's because you're carrying over areas not addressed by the automatic VE Learn ?
Like that big hole in the high speed map, or the falling off at high MAP pretty much all across the low speed ?
Maybe you haven't run it above 3400 at all ?

xch3no2

My concern is that your hitting 100 at only 2000rpm.

You get to add pressure, reset BPC & start all over.

Don't fret, it's fun & worth it, but sooo much easier with a remote fpr I'll admit.

Doober

Lol thanks guys. I'm kind of wondering if it's the shaft or not myself, but I'm also wondering if there's a possibility one (or both) of the blades are hitting the bores themselves. I took the whole thing apart and cleaned it when I swapped the injectors and fpr and I know at first the throttle would barely close until I did some messing around with the blades. It opened and closed freely before the rebuild, though I didn't double check to see if the throttle was 100% closed before. It didn't feel like it had any play after I'd taken it apart - I tried to feel for it when there was no pressure (from springs, etc.) on the shaft and didn't feel any, it moved quite smoothly. I've also considered the linkage, it's not an original bracket so things may be slightly out of whack. From the last log I did, duty cycle hadn't hit 85% yet (should probably do another next time I take the computer out to see where things are I suppose).

xch3no2

If you can feel ANY fore/aft...up/down play you need some bushings, the shaft ***** sideways & all goes to hell.

oldred95 made me find this,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...d=230553699916

I've used quite primitive means & carb bushings for years, as I'm old enough to do so successfully.

The blade hitting the bore is tantamount to the bullet hitting the bone,...
now you gotta fix some shzit.

Doober

Nifty link I don't remember feeling any movement... doesn't mean there wasn't but everything seemed to move pretty smoothly.

One day I'll have a pair of heads on this thing worthy of more than 320hp or so

skerlock

Ive run it to 4800 many times. Theres hardly an area in my learns that moves more than 1 or 2 either way. Im not sure what to make of it. In that hole it runs at its best BLM although im near the 128 except the 100% area. That around 134 or so.

xch3no2

It would sure be helpful to have your fuel pressure in the log ($100 sensor), that is a pronounced dip.

Is PE active in that region?

Of course after eliminating all other reasons you may find that you just have a very efficient area of induction.

Engines are like a box of chocolates....lol nevermind, it's late.

skerlock

That would be nice to know the pressure through all.

PE is not active there. That is a well learned area. I drive many different routes, Hills, flats, drag brakes, stay in 2nd gear high rpm, etc.

Im at 84% on max DC, so im having good range on my injectors.


LOL on the chocolates.

Cflick

Suggests you're done as far as tweeking VE in the area covered. This does not mean that the VE is correct. It does mean that the appearance of the shape of the table is, but the whole thing may need moved up or down depending on other things, and/or the slope might need adjusted.

What's "best BLM" ?
134 BLM at 100% VE suggests you're out of VE range. Your BPC entry is wrong, and your entire VE table, all of them, are also wrong.
A 128 BLM means that the O2 sensor agrees with the fueling at that RPM and MAP. It does not mean that the fueling at that moment isn't the result of compensating errors !
You may need to increase the BPC entry with a corresponding decrease in all fueling entries by a similar ( not necessarily the same ) percentage.
This is why it's best to calculate the correct entry, and not just guess. You can do that, and it might work, but it will make things later that much more difficult, because nothing will calculate, and everything will have to be done by guess and by gosh.

Suggests your fuel pressure and injector sizing is OK.
Mechanically, it has the range to cover. Does NOT mean that your entries in the calibration are correct, though !

Think of it like this....
We know that water freezes at 32F and boils at 212F.
If your base temp constant for your thermometer is off by 13F, then water freezes at 45, or maybe 19, and boils at 225, or maybe 199. The spread is still 212, so you know that if you're ten degrees above freezing and you want it to boil that raising the temp by 189, or maybe 215, will boil the water, but you also know that whatever temp your thermometer shows IS wrong !
You can still use that thermometer, but any and everything you try to do with it will need to be adjusted by the amount of the original error
Fudging constants in a calibration are like that, only worse, because many of them will not be linear, and need tweeked by some percentage ( if you're lucky ) or by an equation with some weird slope.
It's possible to do an entire calibration "by ear" like that, but adjusting anything becomes a crap shoot.

skerlock

Well I used to be out of range at 84 BPC. That was the calculated BPC for pressure and injector. I ended up at 90 Now. I am out of range by 2 -3 on the 100% areas. Plus when it went out of range humidity was high so i did not apply those learns. Thats why I'm ok at 100% if I'm so close.

So, Im at a loss...Can a curve look like this ? Or is there an underlying problem Im missing here?
I apologize for cluttering up the boards with all theses posts.

Scott

Cflick

It's possible, yes, but a more relevant question is how does it compare to your stock bin, or the closest starter bin that came with your EBL ?
Is it reasonable for your collection of parts ?

88īTransAM

Hello. Iīve got a question about the ebl. Can i control my engine fan with the ecm ? Normally, the switch on the rh cylinder heads. I want unplug this one and go with the ebl, if possible...

Cflick

There are FAN settings in the cal. You may have to add a relay.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

the way i understand it, on an otherwise stock electrical system of a (TBI) thirdgen you would just have to put the wire that goes from the relay to fan switch to pin C2 on the EBL, right? so that the EBL can ground it, instead of the temp-fixed switch in the RH head.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Wire from pin C2 on the ECM to the wire that goes to the fan switch. Can leave the fan switch connected if desired. Grounding the fan switch wire activates the fan relay.

RBob.

Chuck!

Bob, is there a way I can use the input from the LM-1 WB O2 sensor for closed loop instead of the NB O2? I disabled closed loop while I tune with the WB, but it would be nice to re-enable it. The other option would be using one of the analog outs and splicing the wire to the stock NB O2 wire.

The VE learns with the WB O2 made my tune way more liveable. It got rid of my extremely lean condition <1500 RPM and when under load... no longer back fires through the throttle body. I took my wife for a ride in the car for the first time in 8 years! Eight! We were dating in college the last time she was in it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to use the other LM-1 output set up as a simulated NB. Then wire it to the ECM in place of the stock NB sensor.

RBob.

Cflick

Just a thot....
Personally, I have both the WB in an added bung about six feet down the pipe, and the NB in the manifold where GM originally put it, and use both.
That way, one checks the other. In closed loop. If they don't appear to mostly agree, ( transitions mostly ) then I know that one or the other is giving a false indication.

Doober

My truck came with a heated, and the WB is in the same spot as the stock NB was. The headers came with a bung in the stock unheated O2 location, but I plugged that with a ??? (don't remember the size read that it was the same as an 18mm spark plug, whatever that is, and it happened to work) plug, and got the version of the y-pipe (unique to my headers, allowing stock converter location, etc.) that has a bung in the same location as the heated NB.

Doober

Something else that popped into my head... is there really any cam that the EBL won't be able to handle? I'm pretty sure my heads are the biggest limiting factor right now, but I have a feeling down the road I'll be upgrading the cam as well (possibly cam/heads at the same time). I'm not really concerned about the cam I would be getting since it wouldn't really be all that wild anyway (maybe 2,000-6,000 powerband), I was just curious.

Cflick

I don't see how ?

EBL, or any ECM for that matter, can be thought of as a REALLY sophisticated carburettor and distributor, so unless you can find a cam that a carb and dist. can't handle.....
( and if you could, how would you fuel and spark it ? )

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

When it gets that radical one would run OL and do not use 02 sensor feedback. Fuel consumption and emishions would not be very good but then maybe not important.

Doober

I kind of thought as much. I'm much more of a fan of loads of torque and drivability. I don't really care for fighting with an all-or-nothing engine unless it was a dedicated race car, the EFI would just be an added bonus then since it could better control the idle than a carb.

EFI 4 LYF

Cflick

If I was going that radical, ( race car ) I'd want to visit with Rbob on a few details, but I'd likely be looking at closed loop off a wideband at the max power AFR.

Trust me, it can control a whole lot more than just idle !!
A properly setup EBL on a dedicated race car should fairly easily out run a carb any day of the week, and especially when the weather changes.

xch3no2

On the cam issue I think OL might be necessary till the cam "comes in" or overcomes low RPM & overlap airflow difficulties but after that I would certainly be looking for CL control.

RBob, I noticed a difference w/2.2e in Async handling that looks like we can now activate Async not only with high-load map & rpm, but now a transitional PW...

INJ - ASync Transition PW - TBI Only
"Once the sync PW is greater then the exit value the ECM will return to Async mode".

Where as previously, except for high-load Async, PW handling appeared to be a low idle/low rpm control via Async PW transition terms.

Just tryin' to pay attention over here.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is a typo, should read:

"Once the sync PW is greater then the exit value the ECM will return to sync mode".

As async is used when the PW gets small. The problem is that async mode ends up leaner then sync mode. This is even more of an issue once larger injectors are used.

Note that this issue is with small PW's, not the high RPM/load async mode.

If small PW async mode is enabled in the calibration try this:

On a warmed up engine in park/neutral, depress the go-pedal to bring the RPM up to about 1300, hold it for a moment then quickly lift. Many times the engine will die as the ECM switches to async for the decel event.

RBob.

GTA

Hi Folks,

I currently have a EBL P4 system up and running on my car, i am very seriously considering a Blower in the very near future. My question is I am currently running #24 injectors...and i have them pretty much maxed out at WOT, i want to upgrade to #42's. Must i relearn the entire lower and upper VE tables? Also i understand the EBL P4 will not do VE learns in boost. How easy is this going to be to tune? Does boost affect the ve tables at all??

For example, my plan is to obtain the #42's first, Let the EBL P4 do learns to get things running well, THEN attach the boost ( approx 7 PSI ) Will my newly learned VE tables still work or will the entire thing need tuning? Thanks GTA...

xch3no2

Ok,.. I have no interest in low rpm Async, & it's easy enough to compute RPM to PW for high-load/ RPM switchpoint.
Thank You.

Cflick

Let's take that issue separately........

In theory, no.
See my post #1197 and #1274 in this thread. ( merely restating information found elsewhere in this forum )
You're changing a FUEL item, and VE is all about AIR, so you should be able to calculate the fuel flow differences easily enough. If your present numbers are correct, recalculating fuel entries ( BPC primarily, and injector compensations ) should be all you need.

It might !
You're going from an atmospheric input pressure of about 14.7 PSI, to an input pressure of about 21.7 PSI, so the same formula for calculating the difference in CFM should apply, ( and absolutely will for things like manifold volume and port velocity ) BUT.....
An engine is a dynamic environment. At some measure of valve lift, air flow chokes, and CFM does not change no matter how much boost there is. At some greater lift, CFM changes greatly. At some RPM exhaust scavenges, and at some other RPM it doesn't, putting back pressure into the cylinders. As the exhaust changes, the differential input flow is affected. VE is changed from that RPM at that throttle for that amount of boost vs normally aspirated.
You didn't say, but a supercharger is not affected ( as much ) by pumping efficiency, while a turbocharger definitely is, so what type of blower affects all of this. Then, there is the fact that PSI boost is not a constant, but varies with RPM. ( among other things )
VE is all about AIR, not fuel !! A blower is all about AIR, so it follows that changing the engine air dynamics absolutely changes VE.
VE is the CFM look-up reference for fuel, to achieve a desired AFR by weight.

Personally, I've never tuned a blown engine, ( EFI ) but I'd expect to be starting over.
A blower MUST affect CFM, and therefore VE, but by how much I know not.
Maybe a lot. Maybe tweeking around the edges.
A supercharger should be easier, since it's gear driven and not affected by exhaust flow "at the moment" but I have seen what happens when a supercharged carbureted engine suffers a back fire.
Adding a blower after a carb isn't too tough, because the carb is still a carb. It delivers fuel based entirely on the air flowing through it, period. The carb itself doesn't care if there's a compressor after it, but a blower ahead of the injectors.....
There's differential pressure across the injectors, where and how air volume is measured, ( or calculated ) all sorts of things we normally don't have to worry about too much.

I'd expect that the approach you suggest is the easier approach. At the very least, you'll be starting from a known, which is ALWAYS the better approach, if possible. If you get it running "perfectly" without the blower, then at least you know that the only adjustments after the blower is added are air flow adjustments. ( like telling the EBL that your 350 at 7PSI boost is a 516.6 CU engine instead of a 350, absent the effects of back pressure, cam timing, compression ratio, absolute compression PSI, fuel vapor pressure, and such )

I ( and I'm sure others ) will be interested in just how much difference you find.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

There may be somthing in RBobs Intro to Tuning Part 2?

AUTOGON350

iTrader: (8)

My EBL controlled radiator fans cycle on and off about every 30 seconds. I replaced the relay thinking it was bad/overheating. That didn't help. The WUD fan light responds with the cycling. Does that mean that the EBL is commanding the fan off and on or would the light cycle if this relay was bad too?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the fan light on the WUD corresponds to the fans cycling then the ECM is commanding the fan on & off. Are the on/off CTS values close together?

RBob.

AUTOGON350

iTrader: (8)

So it is being commanded. That's what I was afraid of. The CTS values are: lower 92.75 upper 86.00. The CTS holds steady when the fans cycle so I figure the values were far enough apart.
When I first got this running I had to flip Option Word 3 - Bit 0 - FanHi to get the fan to work right. Is it possible that the upper and lower are set backwards and the flipped bit is covering for it until it gets stuck in a hysteresis loop. Makes my brain hurt trying to figure that out.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Hook up the WUD and look to see what it is doing. Can also data log it. Look at the CTS and when the fan turns on & off.

RBob.

88īTransAM

Iīve got a question about fan-control on pin c2. I connected the cable from the air system, which is coming from pin c2, to the fan-cable, which was connected to the switch in the rh head. Now, if the engine runs then runs the fan always. Which values in the bin should be changed ?? thx

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Check the WUD to see if it is commanding the fan to run. If so then the upper/lower CTS limits may need to be changed. It can also be that the A/C input to the ECM is active. That too will cause the fan to run when under the MPH threshold.

RBob.

AUTOGON350

iTrader: (8)

Here is a log of the fan acting up. It starts at about 11:15. Also noticed watching it seems to start at my CTS upper value. The way I understood it

Lower=fan on (higher CTS value)
upper=fan off (lower CTS value)

Is that backwards?

Oh and you will have to excuse my gross rich idle. I am still working on that.

Thanks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is the opposite, upper threshold is where the fan turns on. The lower threshold is where the fan turns off.

RBob.

AUTOGON350

iTrader: (8)

Ok. That makes more sense.

My calibration.html document has them written the opposite way. I will switch the upper and lower and give it a shot. That is if it ever stops raining here.

Thanks

xch3no2

EH?...Both my cal docs clearly state this...

FAN - Upper/Lower CTS.

Upper threshold is where the fan turns on. Lower threshold is where the fan turns off.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I think that he is right. There was a time when the calibration doc had them reversed. That is what I get when burning the midnight oil.

RBob.

88īTransAM

My fan doesnīt work... I changed the value to 70°C to try the fan. My fan runs always !! I think, i should disable the secondary air pump for the catalytic converter ?! Itīs the same cable to Pin C2... But, how can i do that ?? thx

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You shouldn't have pin C2 also wired to the AIR solenoid. Just to the fan relay coil.

RBob.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

RBob, when talking to 88'TransAM the other day, i was wondering, does the EBL support AIR at all? iirc, there are no calibration values for that..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL does not support AIR.

The EBL P4 does support AIR.

RBob.

88īTransAM

Ok, fan works fine. Thank you.

Now, the next problem... :-(

Iīve got some troubles with my ignition system. It didnīt run on every cylinders. I changed to the following parts:

- Distributor MSD 8366
- Ignition coil MSD 8226
- Ignition wires MSD 35500
- Spark plugs Champion RC9YC ( They are recommended for my AFR 195 heads )

Yesterday, i changed the parts. Then, iīve got troublecode 42 (EST). I was wondering, iīve never got this code before. Today, i changed the brandnew ignition module to a good, used one from the box in my garage.. :-)
Now, the ignition works fine.
When i changed the spark plugs, iīve seen, they are white. Engine runs too lean or too much spark advance. But, my zeitronix ZT-2 said AFR 14.7:1. That isnīt too lean in my eyes. The BPC-table is adjusted perfectly for my injectors. My spark table is from 1001.bin.
What can i do ? Should i play with the BPC-values ?? What do you think ??

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The white plugs are normal. As long as the engine is running closed loop they will be bone white.

Note that changing the BPC won't affect this. Once in closed loop the ECM will compensate for the BPC being off by moving the INT & BLM values.

RBob.

88īTransAM

Ok, thanks. I thinked, normally, the spark plugs should be brown...
Should i give more fuel yet ? Which changes can i do for power enrichment ??

liquidh8

RBob, any progress on the EBL for the Turbo 6?

Thanks

ownor

iTrader: (5)

@h8, might be worth looking into the $59 code (modified SyTy stuff) on a 749/730 ecm for that application. i'm in the process of setting up a turbocharged fiero with that.