stinger32

iTrader: (1)

I did what you said and the hesitation is gone thank you. I went to the track for the first time and manage to get 12.6 with 2.05 60" with regular street tires. Can any1 look at the logfile and tell me what I need to change to get better time? I will go back and try again 19/8 this time I have slicks and my hope is a high 11.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Check the AFR during the run and make sure it is in the proper range. Check if the ESC system reported any knock. It will also be helpful to pull the plugs and look for signs of detonation (knock).

Then play with the WOT spark timing. This will have the most affect on power. Use the MPH reading from the slip to see if it helps at lower speeds, then what it does at higher speeds.

RBob.

stinger32

iTrader: (1)

Sorry forgot the logfile here it is.

John H

Looks like tire spin is your biggest problem. Try getting the WOT AFR closer to 12.8 and also looks like you might be able to add a degree or so of timing.

squirrel

Using the 0010 bin in EBL, I can't get into open loop to use WB tuning. Going by the CD that was included, I have the "Closed Loop-CTS Threshold" set to high temp and the BLM-max/min BLM set at 128. Only go into open loop at DE. Is there a switch or other tables I need to look at to get this in continous open loop ? Thanks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Setting the "Closed Loop-CTS Threshold" to 150 C will prevent closed loop. Which will always be open loop. I don't recommend setting the min/max BLMs to 128. There is a key-on init BLM min/max settings that is better to use.

These should already be at 128 in the provided calibrations.

Set the Prom ID to a unique value in the cal and flash it in. Then check the Prom Id on the WUD display. this will show which calibration the ECM is running.

RBob.

John H

Sounds like you don't have the VE Learn settings correct in the WhatsUp display. Is the Closedloop indicator lit in the WUD when you are trying to learn? Check the VE learn settings under preferences in the general settings tab. Is the BLM or the WB selected?

squirrel

Thanks guys,my bad rBob, was looking at the min/max to 128 and had set the init to 128, not the 1 mentioned. John H, Closed Loop was lit, except as mentioned in DE, I had the settings between 40*C - 120*C, with WB selected. Will set to 150*C in the cts threshold and ckeck, had it set at 120*C, Thanks again guys.

xch3no2

RBob,
What are my options for using Autometer's 2246 (0-100psi f/p) sender?
Now, or in the future.
Or even the 2239 (0-30) if the Injectors your testing work out to be real 92+# units, that might get me closer to 30psi.

I'm @ 35psi (#231 injectors) w/BPC set for the most accurate control, albeit AFR's are generous.

I still need to add more fuel and would like to monitor on screen & log as
I've topped out the VE table again & the rat keeps reving higher & pulling hard.

Not like I drive around singing the engine, & it makes me nervous to run the big girl so fast, (5k), but that's what I built & expect the fuel requirement to be falling off VERY soon..I hope. Otherwise you will be port-modding my unit & I will be one broke **** building a MPFI.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Just connect the transducer output to one of the EBL ADC inputs. There is built in support for a pressure transducer. The Autometer 0-15, 0-30 and 0-100 psi have devices already created/available.

If it is a different transducer can then create a user device for it. The EBL accepts up to 8 analog inputs of 0 - 5 volts. Many WB and some pressure sensors are already in the selection list.

Any linear output 0 - 5 volt device may be connected and have the converted data in the dump log file.

RBob.

xch3no2

Oh, too cool...
I was only aware of the existing transducer per your info I found, (v2.2a 6/30/09, mine) referring to the 0-15 or 2245 part & was hoping that I could configure a user device for the 2246.

Edit: Aww crap, found the real skinny in post #304, my bad, & I failed to look through the pre-configured list,
& update v1.8d 5/1/07 mentions 0-30 or 2239, again sry.

I guess I could have just checked the senders output, but then I wouldn't have an excuse for bumping the thread.
&
I did not want to wire in anything that might cause damage, this thing is GOLD to me.

Once again you have provided the prefect answer.
I'll slap it in there alongside the LC-1. Thanks so much!

KurtAKX

Random Question:

Are there any inexpensive K-type thermocouple amplifiers anyone's found so far that work nicely with the 0-5V ADCs on the EBL?

KurtAKX

I now have a running driving 4 cylinder car running on the EBL Flash. Unless Bob knows of someone else, I believe I'm the first.

In case anyone else wants to try this, I've got it running synchronous right now, with both injector drivers connected to the one injector. I believe the trick here is just to stay under 50% D.C. I calculated the BPC using Rbob's spreadsheet, using an injector size value that I'd guess is close to the real thing, and put # of injectors as "2" in the spreadsheet, since both drivers will be firing the injector.

I do have a couple questions tho.
It keeps maxing out the knock counts, and hence, it pulls 4 degrees of timing pretty much all the time.... Not sure how its doing this, since the engine has no knock sensor and it doesn't have one of those ESC or EST or whatever they're called modules.

The way I have it hooked up is using:
B3 EST Ref Lo (black/red coming off my dist)
B5 EST Ref Hi (Ppl/wht coming off my dist)
D4 EST (white coming off my dist)
D5 Bypass (tan/blk coming off my dist)

I have nothing connected to:
B7 ESC signal
C9 Crank signal

Is not having something on B7 what's causing my issue?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, with no knock system (ESC), zero out the two max retard tables. Also set the knock retard CTS value high.

SA - PE Max Retard
SA - Non-PE Max Retard
KNK - Min CTS to Enable

The knock counter will still count up, but there won't be any knock retard. To eliminate the counter counting up place a 1K 1/4 W (or 1/2W) resistor from IGN+ to pin B7.

I was wondering how it ran with it set up this way (single TBI).

RBob.

KurtAKX

I changed the min CTS value all the way up, and I changed the "SA Max Retard" to zero, but I couldn't find different Max Retard parameters for PE vs non-PE- is this because I'm running V24 instead of V30?

Also, I read a bit on latency, and I'm wondering how that applies to me with a 4-cylinder...should still be the same # of crank angle degrees, right? Is there a smarter way to find the latency than standing over the screaming engine with a dial-back timing light?

I'm not sure what ignition module # I have off the top of my head, but I know that it's an aftermarket replacement for a 2.8 Fiero V6 since they were out of the correct PN module for the 4 cylinder and it seemed the same physically and functionally.

Cflick

Not really !
OK, you could jig the thing with a lathe or some such, and just spin the dissy, but it's easiest to just construct a SA table of some safe fixed value ( I used 20 degrees ) at all RPM, stick a timing light where you can read the timing, and buzz the engine through it's range, noting any deviation from exactly 20 degrees, how much, and at what RPM.

The first time, I was leaning over the radiator, and thought "This is stupid !"
The fan has never thrown a blade, but the big block spinning 5500 with me leaning over it just seems a bad idea.
So, I figured a way to read it with me NOT in line with the fan.
All you're looking for is a deviation from the fixed timing, how much, and what RPM.
Absolute numbers are not necessary. Then, you can calculate ( or cheat, and find Rbob's chart ) for how many microseconds per degree at what RPM.
Because it's microseconds per degree, number of cylinders, etc. is all irrelevant.
Shouldn't take you 5 minutes to get all the data you'll need.
Then, construct your latency chart, and run the test one more time. If you're right, you'll see no deviation at all through the entire RPM range.
It's important to construct the bin so that all timing compensation tables are zero, the main table is all one fixed timing, and zero out the existing latency table. You won't want to drive it this way, but it's the fastest, easiest, most complete way I can imagine, and it works.

xch3no2

Kurt, look in SA tables/functions (bottom), if you haven't found them yet.

KurtAKX

I used the Ctrl+F function in Tunerpro, and still only found one Max Retard value, instead of two.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Best bet is to reload the XDF file from the CD. The reason is that it is possible to modify the XDF file while in Tuner Pro. Which may have occurred. See attached image.

RBob.

xch3no2

Kurt you do have "Show Item list" on in "View" menu correct?

I've oops! & saved xdf mod & had to reload EBL .xdf before, but just settings not the def line itself.

I also found the finger pad sensitivity to be a culprit.
When working around the "Item Summary list" lines would inadvertently be selected & bumped around.

KurtAKX

I'll have to check that out.

I haven't messed with it in a couple days because I accidentally melted the throttle cable near where it goes through the firewall (engine's in a Fiero), and I have yet to source another one.

xch3no2

Sniff-Sniff
I smell HUGE news from the rockstar Mr.R...might have the odor of tranz fluid!

"Haven't had much time as we've been crunching to get the P4 Flash going. Ordered the PCBs yesterday"

RBob.

stbtrickedout91

Hi everyone,great info here. I have installed my EBL in my 91 Olds Custom Cruiser Wagon 350 TBI, Six Speed T56, 4.11 Posi, Tri Y's, Hi Po cats, dual exhaust with flowmasters. Homemade sewer pipe cold air with k&n cone filter. I have done 5 VE learns so far and have seen improvement each time. Could someone check my datalog and see where I'm at ( new to all this ) Thanks Steve
P.S. Can't seem to put datalog file on here, help!

KurtAKX

A P4 Flash? Oh man, if that is what it sounds like, I can't wait!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Create a dump of the log file. Can do straight text as a.EBL output. Or check the boxes for single header and .CSV output. Zip the file then up the upload manager during the making of your post.

For data logs, to get a feel for what is going on can check the BLM values. And the knock counts/retard values. Once the VE values are closer look at the O2 signal and INT during AE. Can use it to suggest changes to the AE.

From there it is driveability. Any areas that aren't quite right, tap the space bar to place a marker in the data log. Then go back and see what is going on and tweak as required.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

'7730 and '7749 ECMs... Then the '8253 6-cylinder SFI ECM.

RBob.

slowgta

Hello all,

Would someone mind taking a look at my log file? I think I need to pull some fuel from the VE tables and also AE and PE but am not too sure. Any help would be appreciated.
The file contains some steady driving with a full throttle blast. I had to come out of the throttle part way through then get back on it due to tire spin.

The engine is a tunned port 383. If I left anything out let me know.

Thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Looks like a strong running set up. The majority of the VE table is decent. Maybe a little lean in some areas, as the BLM does go to 132 at times. But that is still close to 128.

The WOT AFR reports to be rich. However, the commanded AFR is 11.2:1, which in a NA engine is on the rich side. The WB reports in the range of 10.8 - 11.1 with a BLM of 132. The BLM is also adding a little fuel (about 3%).

Also, during the throttle stomps the AFR goes very rich, too much AE. Note that from the log file the TPS is adding over twice as much AE as the MAP. So work with the TPS AE PW table and leave the MAP alone for now (until the next section).

Will need to reduce the TPS AE PW table in the higher delta areas. The log is showing delta TPS in the range of 10 - 17%.

Taper the AE - TPS PW table to smaller PW values from the lower range up to the highest. It isn't unusual for the higher delta entries to have small PW values in these tables.

The area around 12.5% delta TPS can be the highest values in the table.

For tip in AE, there is a rich spike followed by a lean spike. Look at the records between 2600 and 2700. What I would do here is to lower the AE - MAP PW, and also lower the AE - MAP Filter tables. What this will do is to reduce the volume of AE, and lengthen the duration of AE.

Note that by lower the filter table, this also increases the volume. This is basically a side affect.

Try lowering the entire MAP PW table by 10%. As for the filter table, being based on CTS, for now lower the area of 68* through 116*. Will need to check the AE during cold operation for the remainder of the table.

RBob.

KurtAKX

Really? This is going to cause me to go out and buy a Toronado Trofeo or Reatta just so I can play with the new toy.


Have you got an idea on pricing for these yet?

Are you making this board fit inside the '7727 case?

Is there a chance of it being compatible with the '396 or whateverl the version of the '7727 is that controls the "E" automatics?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The board fits inside of the case ('7730/'7749/'7727/'8253). It is a high density 4-layer SMD PCB, so it is compact. Comm will be via a USB cable that has an A type connector for the laptop side. Then a 1/8" stereo connector on the ECM side. Cable & drivers is included.

Pricing, have some ideas, but don't want to say yet. I can state that it will be more then the current EBL Flash system. But very much lower then anything else on the market.

New toy? Check out a Buick Turbo T, GN, GNX, or an '89 TTA 3rd gen f-body. This is the type of vehicles that the '8253 ECM version will be aimed at (EBL SFI-6 Flash).

The P4 EBL's won't run an E trans.

RBob.

bkaltec

Im thinking about building an MPFI engine soon. Would there be a difference between a 94/95 ecm with EBL Flash and Portmod, compaired to a 7730 with P4 EBL?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Note that neither EBL will run an E transmission. So if it is for the vehicle in your mini sig it will be a piggy back arrangement. This is where the stock PCM is retained to run the tranny while the added in EBL ECM runs the engine. Sensors are shared between them.

The EBL Flash ECM is smaller then the P4 ECM, so that can be of help. The EBL P4 has some additional features such as being able to control an A.I.R. system along with a second fan. And being able to buffer a VSS internally. Can use an internal knock filter or an external one.

For the mini-sig vehicle the VSS buffer doesn't buy anything as it won't be used. However, being able to use an internal knock filter is helpful. One less thing to wire in.

RBob.

xch3no2

I'm wondering if the S terminal is a good all around substitute for tapping C14, or if there might be data noise on that channel that would discourage it's use as an 5v source.

The is consideration is for a dedicated power line to our fuel pressure senders.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The S terminal on the EBL board is an inverted serial comm output using 0 - 5 volts. At key-on it should be reading in the area of 2.5 volts (and varying).

RBob.

xch3no2

Now I get it, Thank You.

Doober

I suppose I'll post here for a little help too. I can't seem to figure out why pulse width is dropping to 0 across the board... possibly too much fuel? Soon as it goes into CL it smooths right out and idles well, but over several seconds I can watch the fuel supply drop to 0, IAC doesn't move from 0 (is it supposed to be like this?), and the truck simply stalls. The engine is a 383, 193 heads, ~9.5:1, cam is a Comp 08-412-8.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=186&sb=0

Here is the current tune and a short log from what it does at idle. Minimum BLM is still set at 108, do I need to lower that to keep fuel coming in? I'm still very new to this, but trying to learn. I'll be sending a payment to RBob soon for a TT-1 because this thing definitely needs it.

One of the other things it's doing is more or less dying at cruise speeds between 45 and 55, I have yet to look into that part... usually some more throttle or simply letting off the gas completely and reapplying allows me to keep moving ok... after I get the idle sorted out, this is my next area I hope to focus on.

Any help that can be given is greatly appreciated

KurtAKX

OK, so instead of fixing the throttle cable, I decided to rebuild the whole engine. Just bumped the compression up to about 9.75, larger custom ground hydraulic roller cam, long-slot rockers, stiffer valve springs, bigger intake valves, bigger Holley intake manifold and 2" bore throttle body, Hooker Header, etc. Put a 91 Chevy 454 TBI injector in the pod so I'd know what the injector size was.

Just got it running, and I'm gonna need a lot lot lot of help tuning.

1) What's the best way to kill all the AE and PE effects so that I can get an honest set of VE values? I can't even get the VE learn to work right now (worked great on the old engine)

2) The throttle has something like 38% more cross-sectional area than the original (which was only 1 5/8). The manifold design is very similar to the stock one, still water-heated, but its got better runner shapes. Based on that, I figured the MAP AE table probably needed to stay about the same, but the TPS AE table would need to change to bring the AE in quicker, since it was gonna bring the manifold to atmospheric pressure with less throttle angle than before.

3) How big is a 91 454 injector really? I started out thinking it was an 80lb/hr @ 12psi, but then started reading about them being anywhere from 75 to 90. Its a Borg Warner replacement, 57229Z

xch3no2

Kurt, I have the B/W 57229 cross referenced to the 17084303/17112560 74-75pph injector.
I believe that is the correct 91 injector, earlier models had slightly larger rated, but slower, injectors.

Good to see ya Doober.

Doober

Howdy!

Kurt, I believe there are two versions, one is the 80lb./hr. injector that was used in early 454s, the other is rated a little lower and was used in later years, I think it may be when they changed the throttle body design in '91 or '92.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Couple of things going on here. Note that there is a good possibility that the O2 sensor is bad. When silicone poisoned (new engine build?) they report rich all of the time. This drives the INT & BLMs down to the point that the engine shuts off. Which is exactly what is happening (BTDT).

First change the calibration to keep it out of async mode. Zero both entries in this table:

INJ - ASync Transition PW - TBI Only

Pull the O2 sensor out and see if it looks white and fluffy. If so throw it away and put a new one in. Even if it looks OK it would be a good idea to try another one. At the time the injector PW drops into async mode and the engine stalls, the O2 reading is in the 800's (rich) and the INT & BLM are bottoming out.

MAP reading, it isn't moving. Use the WUD diagnostic display to see the actual (non-defaulted) sensor readings. Do a play back of the log file on the diag display. Also, open the malfunction window.

Make sure that all of the sensors are working then continue tuning.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

To keep it out of PE mode raise the TPS vs RPM for PE table:

PE - TPS% Enable Threshold

For AE, reduce the TPS & MAP PW values. Although reduce them too much and it will pop out the intake. Too much reduction can also cause the INT to jump up pulling the BLM with it. Which then affects the VE Learn.

As for the VE Learn not working on the new engine, check the set up parameters in the WUD. Make sure that the min/max CTS for a learn is within the operating range of the engine. On the ECM side make sure that it is going into closed loop (INT moves) and learn mode (BLM moves).

Note that the AE calculations are PW based. So a larger injector automatically increases AE.

RBob.

Doober

Could the O2 sensor be bad if it still cycles? Because I have watched it cycle up and down, though I haven't really paid attention to what values it cycles between. Another log I have from an earlier drive (probably 10-15 learns previous) it shows it cycling between 250mV and 850mV or so. The only malfunction light is IAT LO. MAP didn't move since the truck wasn't moving and it was at idle, I assumed this to be normal. Is there any chance fuel pressure is too high? I figured 25psi would be enough to support whatever level the engine is capable of, while not being too high and make it difficult to tune.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, O2 can be bad even if it cycles some. A low of 250 mV isn't that low. It usually goes lower then that when cycling. The other thing to note is that the INT & BLM are dropping like rocks. The end result being the engine starves for fuel and dies.

This can only happen if the signal from the O2 sensor is not correct.

With the 25 psi of fuel pressure using a VRFPR is helpful. Just change the BPC - BPC vs VAC table to match.

MAP: it didn't move from running through stalling. Sits on 93 KPa the whole time. Ignore the ECM reset at each engine stall, as the MAP goes to 10 as the ECM does it's POST.

Then it is right back to 93 KPa, start the engine, and still at 93 KPa.

Take the log you used to create the posted CSV log and play it back while watching the diagnostic display. Had a thought, it may be that the vacuum line to it isn't connected to the intake manifold plenum. That would have it showing barometric the whole time.

Are you at around 2100 feet?

RBob.

Doober

Good guess I'm in Oro Valley (just north of Tucson), and the elevation changes quite a bit, between and work I can feel the pressure on my ears change, and it's only about 5 minutes away if that gives you an idea... I believe I looked up the elevation once and it said around 2500', but the elevation changes so much in the area it probably varies 2-300' easily. I'll double check my vacuum lines and see what's going on there. Think that would help things at all? That IAT error was the only thing that came up.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A rhetorical question?

RBob.

Doober

LOL I guess you're right... I didn't even think to check if anything was manifold or ported on the throttle body when we were putting everything together.

Doober

After some more watching, the O2 sensor seems to be extremely sluggish. I let it idle until it stalled again and watched the O2 reading, voltage finally dropped after several seconds. I'm not too concerned about it since I have a TT-1 on the way now As a temporary band-aid I just set the CL CTS threshold to a very high temperature. It actually idles quite smooth after it's warmed up, injector DC seems to still only be 1-2% above what it does before it starts to lean out & stall, and it sounds like a plain ol' SBC with a noisy exhaust... those little pocket rockets just don't know what's in store for them...

Doober

I figure I'll also ask this here for anyone else that was curious... what part number would be a suitable replacement for the included O2 sensor in the TT-1 kit, and is the sensor suitable to be run as a replacement for the original, using the 'simulated NB' output?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The common as beans Bosch USA 17014 sensor.

Can use the WB in place of the NB as long as it is far enough 'down the pipe' and position correctly. Users guide is on web site and covers proper placement.

First thing to do once installed and operational is to use it for VE Learns based on the WB. In this case the ECM is forced into open loop as you have already done.

Have you found anything with the MAP?

RBob.

Doober

Good deal on the sensor Just a few bucks more than the one I have now :P I am a little curious though, is the little round plastic portion a secondary connection?


I want to say I did (MAP sensor), but I just looked at 2 different playbacks before/after I moved the line, and it appear to make any difference... the reading changes, but only above idle. I may need to put the other vacuum fitting into the intake runner to be sure I have full manifold vacuum I suppose (factory type that has 1 large and 2 smaller fittings), I haven't really checked to see what ports do/don't have vacuum on the throttle body while the truck is running. From what I can tell it looks like it's working, I just don't know if it's reading off the proper port.

This was after moving the line, but I believe it was basically the same on the other port.
ANOTHER question that came to mind... is -10% the maximum VE adjustment that can be made per learn? I noticed positive changes of much more than 10, but -10 was the lowest I ever saw.