RBob

iTrader: (1)

The issue with the AE at 0:06:22 is that there is too much. With the ECM in closed loop it drags the INT down to 119 and starts to drag the BLM down.

Reduce the AE a bit and see how it is. The other thing that can help is to lock the INT at 128 during AE. Set option flag:

Option Word 1 - Bit 5 - INTae

Note that the option isn't a perfect solution. Because on an instance of not enough AE, the INT won't increase to help out.

RBob.

RFmaster

RBob

Thanks for looking into my datalog. Yes, I can see integer dip. At 00:07:09 there is another AE event (gently accelerating from a dead stop to about 20 mph) which I have plotted. Also, my AE tables for TPS and MAP are uploaded. I'll reduce AE_TPS first by about 5% percent across the board and see how it goes.

So basically do I look for a lower WB dip and closer tracking INT???

//RF

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, or even a slightly increasing integrator. Note that the last five columns prior to the user devices in the dump log are AE variables.

RBob.

RFmaster

Update
Two weeks later I finally I was able to get a test drive. AE - MAP PW was reduced by five percent across the table. Very little in terms of improvement. Maybe I need to take more MAP AE PW - it will have to wait until next weekend.

Based on my data logs my WBO AFR goes rich after AE 'event' and then leans out as intergrator takes extra fuel out.

Attached plots show a typical AE transition from idle to acceleration (from stop). Datalog extract is provided.

Next problematic area = observed AFR during PE vs. commanded being rich in some areas.

False ping is still present - the only solution that I can see at this time is to remove delta 40's and switch to a quieter 3 chamber muffler (i.e. Delta 50).


//RF

jamespeek

Hello everybody. I am a new EBL owner, just wanted to say I'm pleased, introduce myself and start posting. Bought it Saturday, received it Wednesday, thanks Rbob for your speedy delivery. I am happy with it. When I push in the clutch and the engine is cold, the IAC doesn't become a huge vacuum leak any more. IAC routines for EBL are outstanding. The truck is easy to manage on cold mornings even though I haven't properly tuned it yet.

I am in the midst of tuning a stock L05 with the typical throttle body mods, CAI, Edelbrock TES headers (yes, I know), Flowmaster 70 Series 3" cat back, high flow 3" CATCO cat, VRFPR @ 14.5 psi, with 3.73 gears and a speedo that is way off after the gear swap. Next project involves the 7 pin dip switch and soldering iron to correct it in the DRAC. Vehicle is a 1991 GMC Sierra C1500.

I need a new laptop battery, but have managed to do some VE learns and this thing has gone from setting me back in the seat a little bit to being a bit of a torque monster. I must have picked up at least 20lbs on the provided bin after I ironed out a few issues. Amazing what a good timing curve will do for it, well a better one, I have yet to make it a good timing curve for my truck.

Anybody else out there messing with a stock L05? Does yours sound better with EBL? Mine sounds quiet at idle but a bit more like a hoss when I open the throttle.

Here are issues thus far:

* smells like it's running super rich when cold esp, moisture comes from tailpipe. first I've ever seen with this truck, maybe gas? but, EBL says the MPG is 18, after correction for my speedo, it's about 16, and with the way I'm driving it during these test drives, I'd LOVE to get 16 . went easy once, and got 5 miles down the road with 25 mpg after correction for gears. can't wait for a long trip, taking one next week. was at 17.4mpg for interstate driving @ 80mph. might get 20+ now.
* O2 sensor bounces around alot, I'm going to 'upgrade' to heated 3 wire O2 NB sensor, but not sure if that will help.
* timing while it's cold is off, sounds like not enough advance, gotta mess with that, anybody had this issue?
* still gives out of breath at 3500 rpm, normal for these heads, but seems more pronounced now, anybody get over a little hurdle to make it not so bad? (I've got some vortecs and might just go ahead and put them on and get the GMPP TBI intake or a single plane with adapter, but just don't feel up to it right now. I want to push some buttons first.)

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Welcome here on board Care to explain what the dip switch mod and DRAC is?
When i started using the EBL i also noticed it runs a tad rich on startup. Maybe you can use the heated O2 to improve that somewhat, or are you planning to get a WB anytime soon?
Which BIN did you start with? You'll love the EBL's highway/lean cruise mode, even more so with the higher gears Do you have EGR still enabled like stock?

jamespeek

The DRAC is specific to my truck, here is a link:

http://www.tbichips.com/drac/

Who knows, there may be an F-body equivalent.

I am disabling EGR and CCP right now for learning. I am planning on getting a WB, but not really soon. I will do some VE learns, play with timing, and see what happens first. I like to trickle my spending, that way I don't feel as guilty for spending so much on my truck.

Cflick

The theorectical "perfect" burn produces CO2 and water.
My truck blows mist from the pipe until the pipes warm up. Actual water, if I rev it any at all, like backing out of the garage.
It may be that it's so close to "right" at start-up, that it's never been before.
Log a lot of data, and go slow before you mess with much at all. AND take notes. Extensive, detailed notes. You'll thank me later.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote:smells like it's running super rich when cold esp, moisture comes from tailpipe. first I've ever seen with this truck, maybe gas?

Might be OK. as you may know you are running off OL RPM/MAP AF tables. My tables for instance may show commanded 14.5 yet on WB I am at 13.8. Your BPC may be off at that specific area. visual I get water as you do but no smell whatsoever. I would tweek the BPC at that rpm map as see how that works.

Your 02 sensor is normal. Heated is a good thought however.

You say out of breath at 3500 ? What is your BPW at that time? should be 90-85%%

jamespeek

Ok, I am getting it closer. I suppose it's more of a stumbling at idle, just does it more when it's cold. It does it after it's warm as well, but the electric fan is pulling alot of amps at idle and may be causing the fuel pump to send less fuel than expected. But, still has a strong odor at a cold idle, in open loop, with a relatively new 3" catco universal cat (less than 1 year old). Holding the engine to a higher RPM with the pedal and then revving it while it's cold seems to make the problem go away, as long as I don't let it idle below 1000 or so.

I thank you for directing me to that table. I took a look at it and tweaked it a little. I don't have a WB yet, but I'd be looking for 450mV of signal on the O2 sensor, right? I just tried leaning it out a little, and that seemed to help it SOME. I might try some more, but I changed from 13.8 to 14.0 at 0-1000rpm and 0-30 kpa.

My max duty cycle is only about 81% when I shift at about 3500-3700. I just don't feel like I'm getting any power past 3500rpm. Also, I'm only getting about 82% TPS on a good, hard take off. It doesn't seem to help to press the pedal any further. I need to play with fueling, eh? But, it's also my stock L05 cam. I will likely install a new cam during my Christmas break.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

There is compensation in pulsewidth of injectors when battery voltage changes. I believe you could tweek that is fans draw a lot of current.

Holding at higher rpm is clearing out the excess fuel I presume.

.45 V seems right but I dont trust the nb02. Maybe you will see it drop in volts.

BPC may need to be changed at that VAC area to enlean the mixture at idle when OL. VAC as you know is opposite of MAP. BPC VAFPR table is VAC referenced.

jamespeek

I like the 96-99 Vortec serpentine setup and the AC compressors, so I'll likely get a 125amp alternator with the swap as long as the setup comes from a truck with pdl and pw.

Yeah, without a WB, this is just a guessing game. I'll probably just lean it out a little more, make baby steps until it doesn't smell rich. That seems like half the battle with this, just keep making small incremental steps until something good happens.

Thanks alot. I think that helps me for now. I'm sure after the cam swap I'll have some questions b/c I'll likely increase my fuel pressure. At this point I'm just being overly picky. Overall, the engine runs ALOT better than with the '7747. Plus, I haven't really read all of this thread yet, I owe it to myself to do that first, then re-read it a few times. Then, hopefully after all this, I'll be able to help someone else.

My only issue now is that I keep getting spark knock at 2000-3200rpm from 70-100kpa. Again, a Vortec accessory upgrade might help that. Plus I need to check my exhaust, as it has started to rattle a little.

jamespeek

Does yours also have a very strong odor at the tailpipe? It just smells nasty. It really smells like my buddies old Camaro with an improperly tuned, carb'd 330hp GM crate engine and no cats running 87 octane b/c he didn't have money to stop and get Chevron Ultimate that day b/c he had to get stoned.

And I do need to take your advice and record good notes. Thanks

Cflick

Maybe for the first minute or so, when it's running a start-up mixture about 6:1.
It settles down pretty quick though. That's expected on a cold engine.
EBL settles the idle much faster than anything else that's I've tried, but I still expect it's quite "off" of what one might think the first minute or two.

jamespeek

Yeah EBL was better than '7747 right out the box. These are just nit picky details. It smelled better than 'stock', but still bad. I've got it close to perfect now. I suppose an IAT would help too. I have one but haven't had time to install yet. I also don't know my exact fuel pressure, I'm guessing now, but I know I'm close. Going to get Autometer 2239 tomorrow or next day, already have fitting to put it in with.

I'm still getting some knock in the 60-80 kpa / 2000-2400 rpm range, but it's when i'm in a high gear (probably higher than I should be for the rpm) and press the pedal. Gotta full in the n/v man tran table and introduce some retard.

jamespeek

Ok, I got my timing sorted out almost. I was off on Fuel PSI, so it runs alot better now! Plus I am about to install my IAT. I didn't hook up my e-fan right, got that fixed. No more knock! Now I can start tuning my curve a little. Doesn't surge at idle, doesn't smell rich, gets better mileage. I was just impatient.

BADAZZ71

Hi! I just hooked up my lc1 to my ebl and now I'm having a problem where I lose communication. I had a broken pin on the calpak, replaced it with a v6 calpak and no difference.
At first, when running, wiggling the phone line by the ecu, it got/lost the signal.
Now when I turn key on there is communication, for exactly as long as I hear my 2nd fuel pump. If I start engine, it loses communication after about the same amount of time. No other problems that I know of, it drives...
I tried a different phone line. The "rx" light on the usb adapter fades out. I haven't had the laptop hooked up in a while, but never had this problem before installing the Lc1. I tried ungrounding the Lc1 at the computer. btw, all my grounds are at the ecu, as there was no green wire, and the "quick start" said blue, white, button and led to ground. So I soldered all 4 wires together and grounded at ecu. (?)
TIA!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

First thing is to get the lc-1 grounds off of the ECM. These need to go to the engine block.

Sounds like there is some dirt in the connector(s). Carefully use a small brush (old toothbrush or small paint brush) and brush off the contacts on the RJ11 cord. Can do the same with the fingers inside of the socket on the ECM side. Note that the RJ11 cord is a standard 4-wire phone cord. So it may be easily replaced.

RBob.

BADAZZ71

ok I checked the sockets and plugs, I had already tried a different 4 wire cord.
I gounded the lc-1 at the engine ground that goes to the battery. Still the same problem.
If I cycle the key and then turn it back on (ie. the fuel pump doesn't run) it doesn't have ANY communication.
But when the fuel pump comes on momentarily, theres a moment of com.
Now it's not in sync with fuel pump like before.
It's like somethings heating up, at first there's a longer com time, than after trying again.
Thanks

sc077

When analyzing logs I noticed that the SA retard value isn't listed in the dump file. Is there a trick to figuring it out from other values in the dump file? I see the SA and knock counts, but not SArt. It's on the WUD page during playback, so it must be in the log file somewhere. I'm using WUD version "2.1i". Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The spark retard isn't in the dump file. The counts are there and the SA column is the final spark value (includes any retard). I'll add in the spark retard for the next release.

RBob.

RFmaster

Update

Since last posting I had a chance to dig into this nagging problem. At first I could not understand why I had launch issues, loss of power. Went back to basics and checked base timing. Big oups!! - somehow distributor clamp bolt got loose and base timing was 10+ degree retarded (instead of 6 deg BTDC it was 10 ATDC). No wonder it run like a dog!
Reset base timing - went for test drive - power is back, but now VE's needed tweaking. That took about 4 test drives and plenty of time massaging VE tables. When all said and done I felt stupid not checking simple stuff first (lesson learned)!

After resetting base timing and re-checking everything else the stock ae's (aeMAP) was dragging integer down during launch - so far I have shorten AE duration by increasing AE-MAP Filter values, thus shortening MAP AE event contribution to aePW. It helped, but INT still takes a dive, but not as much as before. Still there is room for improvement. Plus, I need to learn how to apply steady accelerator movement to get better AE event capture (dump1.zip).

Couple of questions regarding deceleration, coasting (cel=2) to a stop. With engine RPM going from 1400 to 900, MAP~35-50, TPS = 0%, my commanded AFR is 14.7, but WBO is reading rich 12.8 to 13.3 until vss hits <3MPH when close loop kicks in. The question is - do I manually reduce VE in this region of the low speed VE tables until commanded AFR is achieved since VE learn does not function under these conditions??? - (see coasting_down.zip)

//RF

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE][Couple of questions regarding deceleration, coasting (cel=2) to a stop. With engine RPM going from 1400 to 900, MAP~35-50, TPS = 0%, my commanded AFR is 14.7, but WBO is reading rich 12.8 to 13.3 until vss hits <3MPH when close loop kicks in. /QUOTE]

Is it possible this is unavoidable as TBI(I assume you are TBI) is a "wet system" and increasing manifold vacuum litterally wipes the manifold walls clean of any wetting that existed prior to your TPS going to zero %?

RFmaster

[quote=Ronny;4392452]Ronny - thanks - its a TBI intake. That's what I sought - high engine vacuum with closed throttle plates engine simply sucks all the fuel out of the intake manifold cavity. It does seem to affect drivability - I have a non CAT exhaust, but seeing fuel being sucked out during deceleration is kinda wasteful.

//RF

RBob

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=RFmaster;4392470]You can un-check the forced closed loop during decel option to do a learn then.

However, this gets to be a mixed bag of worms. Since prop gains will then be active and the AFR will get leaned out some. It is easy to get surging during decel. The surging is why the decel is open loop in the provided cals.

Another issue is that during decel the PW gets small. Very little fuel is required. So it is easy for closed loop INT/BLM to rise and fall while being unable to control the actual AFR. This time it will start to buck as the fuel comes in and out.

Increasing the injector compensation offset will help in this regard. Which is required for proper control of the injectors.

An aspect of decel is that the air/fuel density in the chamber is very low. Which is difficult to light off. So a little extra fuel goes a long way in preventing misfires. And it isn't really a lot of fuel.

This extra fuel also helps when the engine drops into idle. Otherwise idle can start to surge before either settling down or stalling (it's usually one or the other).

RBob.

dcktp37

Is the EBL worth buying for a stock 350? I'd like to get in to tuning. So I figured I'd start with just a stock 350 so thers not too much that has to change untill I get the hang of it. What all can I do with a stock 350? And I know someone is going to tell me that I should have searched for this but I did and it turned up so much stuff I couldn't go though all of it. And what I did find didn't answer my question.

RFmaster

Yes it is worth it. Today your 350 is stock, but it only takes a weekend to swap out peanut cam for one with character.

//RF

dcktp37

Cool, but what I was getting at was, will it help the stock motor any?

RFmaster

I hate to answer a question with another question - it all depends on what your realistic goals are. In other words if your are expecting to go from 15 mpg to 22 mpg in 6500 lb truck it might be questionable. However, if your current engine and driveline are healthy there is plenty of room for improvement that can be achieved over stock tune in performance and economy. One should remember (always) that factory tunes were designed with production tolerances, strict emission compliance, available fuel variations, component aging, etc as goals. Easily attainable performance was left on the table, just because it was deemed as too much of risk of not working for certain operating conditions or possibly resulting in increased warranty claims. It was left to us to figure it all out.

//RF

BADAZZ71

ok thanks RBob for finding my intermittent solder joint.
But now I'm having an issue with Tunerpro rt. When I go to open a bin, it doesn't show any data or tables. The windows in program are blank. I tried uninstalling it and installed new version. I tried getting the bin from the EBL CD. I was having a "blue screen of death" twice yesterday...duno if related. Ideas? TIA!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You're welcome. For the tables/values make sure that an XDF file is loaded.

RBob.

RFmaster

Here is the value of EBL data logging!

Captured my first 'real' SES - looks like a I may have a flaky MAP circuit or MAP sensor going 'flat'. Code 34 in the SES panel was set and later examination of the data log showed that MAP values went from reading normal 51 to 11 KPA during light throttle cruise. Couple of minutes later after resetting ECM and engine re-start MAP was still reading 11! Decided to curtail Sunday morning test drive and limp back home. About 1.17 min after restart MAP sensor begins to read normal again! No further MAP anomalies weer captured for the remainder of the day. Go figure!

We had four heavy storms come through and dump record amount of rain here in SoCal last week - MAP sensors do not like moisture.

Attached Data log excerpt (Excel ZIP) shows Cold engine start, MAP fault and MAP clear.

I hate changing sensors - any good suggestions???

//RF

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

I have a EBL and a stock 350 (truck crate). I keep reading about changing the fuel pump to the 255LPH pump from the TPI/MPFI Camaros for that xtra horse power. I know the EBL will help with that. I also added bigger injectors and a bored over intake for around $400 off ebay and that defiantly gave me some umph even without the good fuel pump.

-Rob

dcktp37

Thanks. Was it pretty easy getting started, or did you have alot of downtime figuring it out? Can you load and run the stock .bin untlill you have the time to tune it or what?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

That large of pump will most likely require that you replace the return line to tank. Others have had issues that way. Delco TPI pump will handle huge HP. Right now I am at 19.5 lbs FP with 80 lbs injectors. My Aero reg offers alternative spring >20lbs that I can get to 60 lbs. I think some have run excess of 30 lbs with GM TBI injectors.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

That's what I did, run the stock bin to start. Actually that's why I bought the computer in the first place to have a stock .bin to run. Long story. But yes its very easy and if you ever have any questions this forum or RBob are both very helpful and have timely responses.

dcktp37

Will the ebl also tune the tranmission? If so, to what extent?..

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

Not that I know of...RBob?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The only part of the 700R4 transmission (and TH200C, TH350C) is the torque converter clutch (TCC) lockup. The EBL will control the TCC for the best in performance and driveability. There are two sets of lock/unlock vs TPS% vs MPH. One for 2nd & 3rd, and another for 4th gear.

Coast unlock, relock delays, forced lock vs MPH, minimum MPH(s) for OK to lock. Are all user programmable.

The TH400 electric kick down is also controllable with the EBL.

All shifting in the above mentioned trannys are hydraulically controlled.

RBob.

dcktp37

This is a stupid question, but how do I know what transmission I even have?

RFmaster

OK it is not so stupid. Go crawl under you truck and look at trany pan. Since you have 1500 series truck the chances are that you have 700R4 (Square pan with 16 bolts) or THM-350 square with mitered corner with 13 bolts.

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/PanShapes.htm

dcktp37

Thanks alot. I'm sure I'll have more questions later down the road.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

Where would I find detailed instructions on how to properly tune these values?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

DIY_PROM board, Tuning Guide Book sticky, chapter 5, 8063/8746/7747 section, TCC logic link:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=319110

RBob.

Cflick

Really ? That would surprise me. It's difficult to get a pump with enough flow ( not potential pressure ) to actually pressurize the return line.

Presently 24 lbs. On the ragged edge of losing control of the injectors at idle, and provides enough fuel at high RPM WOT without running out of control.
I've also found that all of the GM pumps I've tested flow about the same up to approaching the pressure limit of the pump, 15 PSI on the TBI and 60 PSI on the TPI pumps. In fact, the TPI and TBI pumps are the same except for the relief spring. Block that and they'll both approach 100 PSI. ( with heating and strain ) I'd measured the flow capacity as well, but I forget what it was. 2 GPM or some such I think.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

As far as return lines GM is generally lazy with the F-Bodys and tends to run the same peripheral parts, such as fuel lines.

Where is this relief spring you speak of? I ask bout the pump because I switched from MPFI V6 to TBI V8 and was having problems so I replaced the pump in the tank with the lower flow TBI pump. Then I still had problems (wrong prom) so I bought the EBL which fixed it. Now I realized that to get the power I gota switch back to the 60psi pump I used to have. It would be nice if there was a way to do that without re-droping the tank and buying a new fuel pump again.

Cflick

Unfortunately, *in* the pump itself.
You'd have to disassemble the pump to change it.

You were mislead. The FLOW is the same. Only the pressure relief spring is different.
If you already have the high pressure pump, you're better off adjusting the regulator at the injectors.

Sorry. The low pressure pump dead-heads at the relief spring pressure, about 15 PSI.
The high pressure pump dead-heads around 70 or 80 PSI. At 10 or 12 PSI the flow is exactly the same. At 14, the high pressure pump flows *slightly* more, but not enough to be significant.

BADAZZ71

Could I use another output and have 2 speeds for a 2 speed fan (taurus or mark 8 fan)?
If not I'd probably have a toggle switch or radiator probe for low, and hi be the EBL output (or vice versa). Or a pwm controller like spal or flex-a-lite.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The current EBL has only the one fan enable output. A head temperature switch and a relay can easily be used for the other fan (high or low).

RBob.

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

I just got all my wiring done for the EBL swap and the ECM finally back in the kick panel. I hope to load and bin and fire it up on EBL power for the first time tomorrow afternoon; assuming all my wiring is correct.

Bob, above on this page you mention taking the LC-1 ground off the ECM. I have my LC-1 grounded to the engine indirectly (a location under dash that's tied to the firewall ground, that's connected to the engine via ground strap), and a ground from the same location (under the dash) connected to the ECM. Should I still remove the ground at the ECM?