Cflick

Async for high load high DC is really a band-aid for injectors that are too small, and not much of a band-aid at that.
Unless you *know* what you're doing, and why, you'd be much better off going to bigger injectors, higher fuel pressure, or the like to actually increase the fuel delivery in the controlable range. ( but don't get carried away, or you lose control at the other end, idle and school zones )
Asnc can get you a bit more fuel, but so can setting the fuel table to 100% and forcing static. Control is highly questionable at best, absent at worst.
Note: If you do try setting high map high RPM fuel cells to 100%, and still run out of fuel, then it's a real safe bet async won't do you any good at all. Your injectors are simply too small.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

With TBI asynch works pretty well. You can get 15-20% more fuel out of injectors that are in asynch than ones that are operating ins synch mode, at high rpm.

bonesbrakr

iTrader: (3)

Just got my car running good but have a problem when i punch the gas pedal. TPI 350 with a Lunati 515 intake 530 exhaust cam and edelbrock headers. Datalogged and it shows that when i rapidly press the pedal the rpms drop to 400, MAP goes to 100 Kpa, goes into AE mode with a 4.4 to 5.6 sPW and a 1.6 to 2.5 aPW,IAC goes from 24 to 145, and there is obviously a severe bog. Then when AE kicks out and PE kicks in, it takes off like a banshee, and the aPW disappears. Now my question is i see in the tables there is a AE - iac opening fuel entry. right now it is at 0. if i increase that will that help with or cure the bog? Should i also be using a heated o2 sensor?????

Thanks
Bill

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Shouldn't need IAC opening fuel on a MPFI setup. However, it can be used as an additional source of AE. But by doing this fuel wil be added whenever the IAC opens for other reasons (stall saver, idle control, etc.). See the issue?

For the bog, need to discover whether it is caused by the AFR going lean, or going rich, then adjust the AE tables accordingly. Note that TBI AE and MPFI AE have completely different requirements.

Heated O2 sensor? Where is the current one located?

RBob.

bonesbrakr

iTrader: (3)

Well the o2 sensor is in a set of edelbrock TES headers. It is mounted in the collector of the drivers side header. I will try to attach a copy of the datalog. The event starts around 9:41 . Thanks for the help RBob....

Bill

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A heated O2 is usually recommended when in the colletor (or past) of long tubes.

For the AE, I'd say too much. Highlight the entire AE - TPS PW table and multiply it by 0.80 . Then see if it is better. Most likely wil need to further tune it.

RBob.

bonesbrakr

iTrader: (3)

Definitely helped. Can now break the wheels free on takeoff. Thanks for putting me in the right direction!!!! Will be getting one of the EBL units when i put fuel injection on my 72 Charger....

Thanks Again
Bill

brokenparts

wow, just got through this... excellent info here. I read about disabling "lean cruise mode" for Ve learns. How do I go about doing this. I dont believe I read where to actually edit it in tunerpro to do so. Forgive me if it was shared... that was alot of info to retain!

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Set the enable temp for lean cruise to the max setting.

brokenparts

ok, so this is the " HiWy - Min Coolant" one right? Set to 151C? I suppose I could change the speed ( HiWy - Min MPH) to something like 255mph to achieve the same result?

sixty

That is the correct way to disable the lean cruise, sound like you are getting it figured out... I'll probably be asking you questions in a few months

Do you have a VSS yet? I'm not too happy with the Audiovox magnetic sensor. It reads fast which is no big deal but it tends to bounce and does not register until about 25mph. it could be a problem withthe magnet though. I need to try a different configuration.

brokenparts

yeah, you've created a monster... No vss yet. I'm not really sure how to go about setting one up or what they are all about in general except they tell the ecm how fast your going? Seems like its going to be off due to my 40s too. My speedo says I'm going slower than I actually am. Probably be my next research project here on Thirdgen...

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

My EBL equipped truck went 12.43 @ 106.6 Friday at the street car meet at Mason Dixon dragway. 7.848 in the 1/8, 1.638 60 ft.

DM91RS

Very good especially with a heavy truck.

slrvette

iTrader: (1)

I'm only in the beginning phases of tuning and have a couple of questions.
So far I only have a few VE learns and really haven't got the car past 40mph.
Since I'm using BLM VE Learn should I disable lean cruise? If so whats the easiest way?
Using the analysis screen I'm having a problem. I click view log,then select a log and click open. Nothing happens nor does it appear in the analysis screen. But if I dump a log, then select which log to dump as a .ebl file I can then open it in notepad without any problems.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Isn't Vista great?? Thank's Bill G.

Try setting the WUD to run as administrator. Find it in Windows Explorer, right click, then click on "Run as Administrator." If that entry isn't in the menu, then click on Properties. Run as admin may be in there.

If you have the WUD as a shortcut on the screen, can right click on it and then click on Run as Admin.


Two easy ways to disable lean cruise: set either the min coolant or the min MPH to a high value.

RBob.

slrvette

iTrader: (1)

thanks it works now!

sixty

I have a Hurst V-matic shifter and it currently has the buit-in park/ neutral switch (open in drive) wired into the starter solenoid hot wire. Im having a difficult time figuring out how to wire in a park neutral switch without having a complex system of relays.

Are the only functions of this switch to tell the ECM you are in drive and to adjust the idle accordingly and also to allow the use of the B9 idle control?

If this is the case, then I could just use a switch on the dash next to, or part of the B9 idle switch and leave the P/N switch in drive at all other times. so far leaving the switch in drive (not grounded) has not had a negative affect on my idle.

Any ideas would be greatly apreciated.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The park/neutral input to the ECM helps prevent stalling when the trans is put into gear. The prk/neut idle speed is typically higher then the in drive idle speed. And there is an IAC bump when prk/neut goes inactive (in-drive).

DFCO is disbled if prk/neut is active. And there are two different throttle follower %'s between prk/neut and in-drive.

RBob.

sixty

RBob,

Thanks for the reply. So far I have had no issues with stalling or even hint of it when the trans is put in gear. It's a 700r4 with pretty hard shifts. Would you advise against leaving the P/N switch innactive except when using the B9 function? If I put them both on the same switch I would also eliminate the possbility of the high idle while actually in gear.

On another point I went in for smog this morning & failed with high CO's (2.19%/ 1.2% allowed) @ Idle (passed in nuetral @ 2500+/-). Unfortunately they just switched over to a new system that does not tell you what the other levels are. I datalogged the test, so would it be ok to Email you the log & Bin to look at? I re-enabled CL for the test and it seemed to stabilize the AFR's slightly but the WB reported an AFR of about 13.5 during the test, maybe its the fact that I have a non heated sensor just after the collector on the block huggers.

Thanks for all your Help, I love the EBL! I raced a 360 2nd gen Dodge the other day & spanked him Then all full of myself I raced a Vette and got spanked . I've got way too much AE & a low stall so it kills me off of the line.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If you are going to use the B9in high idle then just for safety I would implement a real park/neutral switch to the ECM. You could probably use a relay and wire the coil between +12 ignition switched and the igntion switch side of the neutral stop safety switch.

Then ground the relay common contact and run the NO contact to the ECM.

Whenever the stick is in a drive position the switch is open and so is the relay.

When the stick is in park or neutral the switch closes allowing current to flow through the relay coil and through the starter solenoid for ground. The current will be so low (from the relay coil) that the starter solenoid won't engage. The relay then closes and grounds the prk/neut contact to the ECM.

Emissions: high CO is from a poor burn. Without the other readings it is hard to tell what the issue is. A non-heated O2 in block huggers is borderline. With the WB reporting 13.5 it is on the rich side.

RBob.

sixty

Thanks, I'll figure out a system of relays for the P/N switch as well as the starter... Maybe if I wire the starter solenoid ground into the switch instead of the hot, the P/N switch could share the switch in the shifter.

It's irritating that they no longer give you the other info in the test. I'll disable the CL & see If I cant get a leaner idle & try it again. Do you mind if I email you my log and bin for tuning advice?

liquidh8

Ok RBob, sorry to bring this back up, but... I finally permanently mounter my autometer FP gauge, I have a wire running to the EBL. The buffer function is great by the way, but the EBL is still displaying almost 20 lbs higher than is actually going on. Is there I way I could maybe run a pot or something in the signal line going to the EBL to drop that number?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You could, but I would be more inclined to think that something isn't correct. Need to use +5 volts to the transducer (not 12 v), then for accuracy can ground the transducer to the EBL, and tie the analog out to an ADC input. If you selected in preferences the 100 psi transducer try the 30 psi transducer.

Then again, you have the gauge that goes with the transducer. It may be that the gauge output is a different range then the transducer. Does Autometer have anything on their web site about the gauge output?

RBob.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Just this week, I wired my Autometer gauge into the EBL. Works without issue, though there is ~2 lb difference on what is displayed versus the gauge. Mine is the 0-100 psi unit.

Not a big deal, but helps verify no pressure loss at WOT.

liquidh8

I too have the 0-100 psi unit. I checked the ref voltage to the transducer, it is 5 volts. I checked the electric gauge against a mechanical I screwed into the fuel system, it reads true. I even moved the signal wire around on the terminals on the EBL, always reading the same, almost double. I also tried using the 0-30 psi setting in the preferences, no go. I'll be looking at it again this week in work, to make sure i didn't miss something.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Best bet is to measure the analog voltage output from the gauge. Then see if it matches the actual fuel pressure. This looks to be the correct equation for the conversion:

psi = (V - 0.5) * 25

RBob.

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

Hey RBob, how about a EBL gathering. You guys are great! Thanks for helping us all with our projects. Mine starts today firing up an L31 e-tec hotcam combo.

titchener

Rbob-

A question for you, today while letting the car warmup for a tuning session I decided to log the whole warmup process just to see what happens.

After watching the coolant temp go from around 90F to 175F after around 10 minutes of idling or so (in park) I was expecting it to go into closed loop mode at some point while idling and warming up, but it never did. The O2 sensor values looked reasonable during the warmup, started around 500mv and then once the temp got around 150F or so the O2 voltage starts wiggling around more, not big "closed loop style" transitions but from probably 450 up to 680.

The temp got up to around 171F and stabilized (I have a 180 thermo) but still no closed loop, so I decided to take off. After one stop and go at a stop sign, then it finally went into closed loop, with a CTS of around 175.

Is this expected operation or do I have something funny going on? The closed loop CTS transition is set at the original value in the EBL 21 bin of 47.75C.

Thanks,

Paul T.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The O2 sensor wasn't active enough while sitting at idle. Needs to swing greater or less then the "Closed Loop - O2 Upper/Lower Go into Closed Loop" values.

The values can be loosened a bit. However, make sure that the O2 sensor is truely hot at those values. Otherwise it will throw the fueling off.

RBob.

titchener

Ok, thanks, looking at the log that looks like exactly what happened.

One more question for you, after looking at the .bin somemore I realized that Highway mode was turned on during my tuning runs yesterday, which I understand doesn't hurt a learn session, you just don't learn anything when its in Highway mode, so you dont' get as much data.

Is there a way to tell from the WhatsUp display that you are in Highway mode?

Thanks,

Paul T.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The LeanCr indicator lights up. The other items are that the ECM drops out of closed loop and learn, along with the AFR being commanded lean (15 - 16 to 1 range).

RBob.

2tonevette

RBob - all these calcs and stuff based on PSI how much is 2-3psi difference gonna really screw up tuning if ones settin the EBL based on a wrong PSI reading, I purchased 2 gauges sort of cheapy from Summit there own gauge read 0-30PSI figured that would get more resolution. They were spec tested were I work and we found one off by 2psi high and one off by 3 PSI in the 10-20 range odd enough up to 10 and over 20 they were fine... this was tone with a weighted pressure test... I compensated of course in reading. But how much if any is this hurting people with say BPC. It can make a difference I guess if using AFPR also?

Also on TBI, are there any set standard settings/changes for the EBL settings say running 85# injectors vs. 65# injectors - PW? SYNC vs AYNC. A baseline if you will or is there any other items that should be adjusted in the PW tabels based on PSI changes from say 10psi to a larger motor running say 23psi right off the bat...

I read allot on the PW and its settings, my concern is at idle settings and some of the PW voltage settings... its just not real clear what they all do...

Also when you are anyone else has a chance to chime in can someone decifer a bit how to read the graphs of the WUD and read all those lines the spikes and dips... It would be a plus to have a littel more know how on them...

thanks

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

My experience is that the "gauge" especially if liquid, is only accurrate when cold. The read will vary when heat soaked by engine. If you want accuracy when fully heat soaked you need to get a quality unit like autometer electric FPG with a remote cockpit gauge.

I believe the process is to set FP adequate to fuel WOT at say 85% duty cycle12.0/1 A/F. that is your start point. then calc the BPC from that point. If using VAFPR that value is placed in 0 VAC or 100 MAP. From there it gets tricky. the higher VAC lower MAP(ie idle) table values are calibrated through use of a vacuum gauge devise(mighty vac). I have not yet done so but will next tuning season. I believe the Aeromotive VAFPR is a quality devise. My choice. Others available at lesser cost. I just pirated values from another member that runs similar set up. From there work on tuning VE, AE , etc.

2tonevette

Ah sounds like your saying take a vac pump and say pump it to XX vac and then see what the PSI is... Thats pretty easy guess that is better than the SPREADSHEET, you would get a better read on your actual VAFPR that way.
KISS principle works there...

Hmm I just thought of this (checking!) how do I calc the values for BPC then? Will that be hard? What formula?

We tested the SUMMIT liquid gauge at different temps NO CHANGE we did it at 40, 70 and 180 degrees NO CHANGE... maybe in time the guage will change but so far they are exact at what they were set at statrup... only get low if the tank is a bit low... since both mine were off +-about 3psi it makes me wonder how well they test them? Guess one can buy a cerified gauge but for what they are they are not bad... I think like 19.95? Mine are up front on a 82 vette and stay cool from the fan air... the IR probe shows them about 100 tops most of the time unless I shut her down then they jump to 190 or so... It may be the fuel also keeping them cool...

thanks
2tonevette

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

There is a liquid gauge and a spring gauge. I believe the spring version is more accurrate so it is said.

There is a calculator out there for the BPC search for BPC-VRFPR. It is a microsoft excel spreadsheet I believe.

VAC BPC PSI, fuel Gms/Sec #/HR
0 86 19 12.18612578 96.7
5 88 18.3 11.95953794 94.9
10 90 17.5 11.69520612 92.8
15 91 16.8 11.45891497 90.9
20 93 16.1 11.21764763 89
25 96 15.4 10.97107582 87.1
30 98 14.6 10.68231263 84.8
35 101 13.9 10.42308444 82.7
40 103 13.2 10.15724251 80.6
45 106 12.5 9.884253211 78.4
50 110 11.7 9.562727644 75.9
55 113 11 9.272251407 73.6
60 117 10.3 8.972376068 71.2
65 121 9.6 8.662125516 68.7
70 126 8.8 8.29335378 65.8
75 132 8.1 7.956670351 63.1
80 138 7.4 7.605096267 60.4

Val Snyder

Hate to butt into the FP, but am somewhat stumped in Baro land, when heading into town, Baro at 80,AFR close to correct,on return to home, Baro at 90, All AFR way fat, cruise went from 15:1 to 12.8:1. IAT dropped only 2 degrees,so I'm looking at Baro-TPS Correction but have no clue as to how the value interacts,have read the calibration but cannot relate. All Baro values are set to the stock bin.--Or is this a BPC vs BARO issue? Thanks for any enlightenment, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Are you saying that there is a barometric pressure difference of 10 KPa between home and town? Or, are you saying that the pseudo baro read is not set up correctly and is producing an invalid value?

RBob.

Val Snyder

There was a 10 Kpa change in the weather,and a large change in AFR. The change was a result of #4 intake spring breaking, I was wrong to think it was Baro related,but came to realize that I really don't understand how to manipulate the Pseudo Read to what end. Like Max RPM for read,is the object to only read below an RPM at which intake flow restriction becomes a factor?Or is it to read the butterfly and other restrictions? Min TPS for read,should this be throttle opened to atmospheric? Like near wfo? Think I savvy the Max Delta as you don't want to be changing a value when pokin the pedal. The filter I kinda get,but how often does the value try to update?,whenever previous conditions are met? Is the BARO-TPS correction compensating for manifold vac /vs atmospheric at given TPS? And what is the ideal object to achive. Certainly appreciate your knowledge on this and other points,of course there are more to come, Thanks, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Ouch on the valve spring. Hopefully the valve didn't drop. I'll put together a write up on pseudo baro reads and post it. This is an area that has been ignored for too long.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Pseudo Baro Reads

The object of the pseudo baro read (PBR) is to keep an updated and accurate value of the true barometric pressure. The ECM uses the current barometric pressure to calculate the intake manifold vacuum. The vacuum is simply the barometric (baro) value subtracted by the MAP value. The difference is vacuum.

The baro value is also used to compensate for the change in volumetric efficiency of the engine system.

Most of the time changes in barometric pressure while driving is due to either ascending or descending a mountain. To read the current baro pressure the engine RPM needs to be low, and the throttle position needs to be high and steady.

This provides the least amount of resistance from the TB. At this point the MAP value is used with an adjustment. The adjusted MAP value is then filtered into the current baro value. This filtering is done to prevent the baro reading from jumping. It provides for a smoother transistion in the ECM baro value.

This filtering is needed after descending the mountain. As the throttle wouldn't be opened enough for a PBR until back on level ground. And at this point there can be a larger change in baro.

So how it all fits together:

Throttle needs to be above the Min TPS% parameter (65%)
Throttle needs to be held steady: Max diff TPS% (2%)
Engine RPM has to be below the Max RPM parameter (4800 rpm)

Once these parameters are met a PBR will take place. Values shown are typical.

For an adjustment there is a lookup done on the Baro Correction vs TPS% table. The value from that table is multiplied by the engine RPM and added to the current MAP value. This adjustment table compensates for the throttle position and engine RPM affect on the MAP.

Here is a sample of the correction table:

Note that at key-on the ECM grabs the current MAP value and uses it for the current barometric pressure value. The tuner can also key-on, engine-off and read the MAP value for the current barometric pressure. This can be used when tuning in the PBR parameters.

Basically, adjust the min TPS% and max RPM to enable a decent read with little correction required. The larger the TB unit the easier this is. Then tweak the Baro vs TPS% correction values until the PBR reads return the proper value.

To have the last PBR take affect immediately the filter parameter can be changed to 100%. Then once tuning of the PBR is completed return the filter back to it's original value.

For an interesting read from the engineers that developed the PBR algorithm can see this SAE paper: 1999-01-0206. Should be on Delphi's web site in the technical papers section.

RBob.

Val Snyder

Thankfully,she didn't swallow. On cold start,IAC is set to Powerup initial steps,AFR to Crank AFR, decaying out as cranking speed picks up (PW Multiplier),all out at idle speed? Then IAC shifts to run position as it's delay times out and AFR goes to AFR choke holding the first value for Choke Initial Delay,then decays out at Decay Delay intervals at Decay Multiplier, Please correct my misconceptions, many thanks, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Real close. The ECM switches from crank AFR to open loop AFR (with choke AFR subtracted off) the moment the engine is 'running'. Which is typically once the engine RPM is above 400.

RBob.

Val Snyder

Hate to rubber crutch this,but I've been unable to get a handle on warmup. Engine starts after some cranking,(I tell myself this is a good thing as oil is getting circulated) runs ok(full cold idle RPM) for a few seconds (2), then nearly dies,(sometimes does)recovers and then runs ok thru warmup. I have cut back the cranking PW reduction at the higher RPMs and that helped till the weather got more serious about getting cold. I have messed with the initial delay,and choke AFR,which seems ok thru the rest of warmup. IAC looks to stay the same,Heated o2 shows a lean time, getting richer as time passes, WB hasn't woke up yet. I don't know how much to trust the o2 when cold,but the engine seems to run shy of fuel between end of cranking and Choke AFR? So the thought is, until it stumbles or dies,it is running on fuel from Cranking , so would it be that the begining of choke AFR is too lean and should be richened,with a decrease in delay (or not) but decay the richer setting out sooner? Thanks so much, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The crank time is the nature of the TBI. The manifold is dry and there isn't any AE as in setting the choke on a carb. The code originally had AE enabled at key-on, engine-off that eliminated the longer crank times. But I disabled it for fear that folks would be flooding their engines.

What I do is to crank briefly, pause, then crank to start. The initial crank wets the TB, the pause lets the fuel run into the manifold. Then the second crank pulls the fuel into the chambers.

Note that the 400 RPM row of the VE table is used during cranking. And the MAP area in use will be relative to barometric pressure. So the VE table also needs to be correct.

The other thing is to make sure that the pump pump & relay are powered during cranking. Many circuits are shut off during crank. Which makes for strange starting behaviour if the fuel pump is shut off during cranking.

For the crank to run issues, note that these tables are CTS based. So they can be adjusted as the weather changes. I'm running an EBL Flash in the Camaro and just this weekend leaned out the crank and after-start choke fueling. Weather got cold and I found it was way too rich.

In the data log, if there is an RPM value then the engine is 'running'. You can use this along with the PW and commanded AFR to see what is going on.

If the engine glugs or chugs then dies or stumbles that is too rich. If there is a surge (along with a sharper engine sound) that is too lean.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? Probably so. Take a look down the TBI while someone does a cold start and see what happens to FP as well as you witnessing the nice conical spray or lack thereof. Just a thought.

junkdealerrex

I have a 5spd in a truck and I have bog/flat spot in an area after shift till it gets passed a certain area.what do u mean u shifted it from map to tps.I'm a beginner.
rex

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Waht fast did was move Acceleration Enrichment (AE) from delta MAP to delta TPS. When an auto shifts there is usually no change in the TPS. However, the MAP usually increases as the RPM drops. Then MAP AE is added.

By moving some of the MAP AE to TPS AE this volume of AE during an upshift is reduced.

For a stick tranny it isn't the same. When you shift the gas pedal is lifted then re-applied. At least unless you are power shifting.

In the case of a lift during a shift both MAP & TPS AE is added once the go-pedal is pushed back down.

You need to find out if the bog is from being lean or from being rich. Can use the INT along with O2 value to help. If the INT drops like a rock after the shift then the AE is too rich. And vice-versa.

RBob.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

As I understand it, 10% ethanol blend has a stoich of 14.2. Is it a big issue to continue to use 14.7 as stoich?

If so, what settings need to be changed to achieve stoich of 14.2?

Also, how with this affect WOT tuning?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The a/f ratio needs to be atleast 1/2 point richer across the board. Only the commanded a/f ratio for closed loop. Open loop, PE, and lean cruise should be 1/2 point richer across the board.