RFmaster

I think this subject of pressure sensors came up in the past before. Autometer does not manufacturer pressure transducers - they get OEM'd from Measurement Specialties Inc - MSP-600 Series, which are available with different options:
http://www.meas-spec.com/myMeas/down...sp/msp_600.pdf

There are other pressure transducer manufactures besides MSI, but it appears that most of them are chasing industrial or avionics applications - hence the prices are high sky! I am still trying to find an alternative, since I would like to monitor FP through EBL.

//RF

liquidh8

So, the pins for the datalogger must be for the latest incarnation of the autometer fuel press gauge. Mine has 10 pins, 4 and 10 are supposed to be the datalogging pins, but the are dead. No voltage on the data +, so I guess it's back to trying another way. I really want to run the guage AND datalog it in the EBL, not one or the other.

liquidh8

Well, tried running the Fp gauge, and a wire into the ebl to log, and the ebl displays a fp reading, but it is like 7 psi too high, and jumps around a bit. looks like i am sol. I have to try and hook the ebl soley to the FP sender, RBob, you know offhand, or have the pinout offhand, so i can do this??

RFmaster

liquidh8

Here is one possible pin out. Pressure sensor needs + 5 Volt reference supply to operate. You can get +5 volt from pin C14 which is used to supply reference voltage to TPS and MAP.
Ideally, it would have been nice to have A/D buffered reference voltage available as an output pin of J1 from EBL board. That way reference voltage would be the same as the one used with A/D IC for data acquisition. Rbob - perhaps +5 volt reference source output could be added to a next version of the EBL???

ECM I/O |-----|MSP-600 Sensor
Pin C14 |-----|Pin A (+5 volt reference) or red wire
EBL GND |-----|Pin B (Sensor Ground) or black wire
EBL Pin 0|-----|Pin C (Sensor Output) or white wire

//RF

liquidh8

interesting, but can I still use the gauge with this set-up? I would think no because the gauge has a 12v input and ground, then the 5 volt output to the sensor. This is a great way to hook up just the sensor for the ebl though. Thanks.

RFmaster

IMHO you should be able to use your gauge in parallel with EBL input. Rbob what is the input impedance of EBL A/D channel??? My guess, meter has its own 5 Vdc reference voltage which is used with pressure sensor. Only one + 5 volt line should be connected to avoid strange loops. Ground should be common to both EBL and meter.

If you really worried about loading you can build a little op-amp based unity gain buffer to make Y splitter so as to allow EBL and pressure gauge to see sensor simultaneously. This will de-couple EBL and meter input circuits. It is a very simple circuit straight out of the basic OP-amp hand book. Above requires electronics DIY'ing


//RF

littlepiston

i have a question about Nalpha i have a big cam i only have 10in vac. can this help me?? how dos it work?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You should be able to run both the gauge & the EBL data logging. I wonder if Autometer changed the transducer that they have been using. Are there any names or number on the transducer?

Can also try meauring the supply voltage at the transducer. Most are ratiometric with the output following the supply voltage. I believe it should be dead on at 5.0 volts.

RBob.
----------
N-alpha is when the ECM uses the throttle position and the engine RPM to calculate the required fuel. What it does is to eliminate the MAP sensor. In the EBL this n-alpha term is blended with the real MAP term for the fueling calculation. The blend is typically set up so that at low RPM it is more n-alpha, then as the RPM increases the blend goes more toward the actual MAP reading.

RBob.

littlepiston

Sweet ill try that. so if i were to idle at 900 and my kpa is at 50 i would need to?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

My old 305 ran with minimal Alpha-N blending at 700 rpm and 65 KPA MAP (~11 in/hg of vacuum). Nice little sound to it as well, really ran above 3,500 rpm as well.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

When I first start my truck in the morning, it "spits" some wet, black gunk out of the exhaust. The Open loop AFR table puts the AFR at around 13:1 - 14.5:1, though I'm not sure when it actually goes away. Does this seem too rich for open loop? Is there anything else that would cause this? I just replaced my cat a few months ago (not because it failed though), and I'm sure this isn't good for it.

redbird92'

iTrader: (1)

Hi, I have been working with the ebl equipment.

I have done several VE learns and about 5 datalogs. I have noticed that the BLM stays at 128 along with INT at 128 I have noticed that through datalogs and the WUD that it seems that I am not entering Closed Loop--I think---
I have Coolant temperatures of 170 and up and it still isn't entering closed loop and have been running for 30+ minutes. I looked at closed loop tables in TP and found everything seems normal.


CL- CTS THRESHOLD 46.25 Cel
199 to 798 Mv for 02 upp/low to go into CL
299 to 651 Mv for 02 upp/low to stay in CL

Please Help/ New to tuning Is there anything I am overlooking...

I have t

liquidh8

I'll have to pop the hood and take a look at the transducer being used. I got it used from my friends whom had it in his silverado SS. I'm tempted to buy the new one, with the datalog outputs on it.

If it is dead on 5vdc in, then it should be a fraction of that voltage out right, depending on the FP?

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

Is it safe to say that if the DFCO is not right, the Learn VE will cut fuel when you're off of the gas? I notice that all of my lower MAP areas (below idle pretty much) are now lean, where the rest of the tune is spot on. I have never touched the DFCO.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Attached is the pin out for the current Autometer transducer (thanks Peter). With a 5 V P/S the output is .5 V at 0 psi, and 4.5 v at 100 psi (or 30 psi for that transducer).

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The O2 sensor value needs to go lower then the lower threshold and/or higher then the upper threshold before the ECM will allow closed loop. This is to be sure that the sensor is active.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

When DFCO goes active the injector PW goes to 0. If a VE Learn session is active during this time it will suspend the learning process. If it didn't then the VE in those areas would be increased, as the AFR is very high during DFCO.

Did these low MAP areas get a learned correction? I find it is difficult to get a low MAP value while below the engines idle speed. Normally the MAP increases in this case.

RBob.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

I'm sorry, I meant below where the MAP is at during idle.

Could DE cause it?

Should I just try to increase the VE table in the lower MAP areas and see if a learn changes them?

Thanks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No problem with changing the VE table & seeing what the learn will do.

A lack of DE may be contributing to the lean VE. See what the O2 sensor is showing as you lift & the engine drops to idle. If it hangs rich causing the INT/BLM to drop add a little more.

RBob.

liquidh8

Thanks RBob and Peter for that pin-out, if it stops raining I'll check it out. I'll keep you informed.

blown91

when I change the displacment table from 305 to 350 my truck runs pig rich will hardly rev and blowing black smoke. i thought this only changed airflow calculations althow i'm probably wrong. What other tables will this affect I know it will affect all of them but what one should I be looking at? My engine is a fresh 355 am I missing something? Thank all of yall for your time and help

88Stepside

Received my EBL Classic a couple of weeks ago, install and initial VE learn went so smooth compared to previous '7747 tail chasing.

First question: Is recommended 5-10 IAC's at idle in park or drive?

Second question: Do i still tune AE with PE disabled?

Thanks in advance

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You are correct in your thinking. The displacement scalar only affects the airflow calculation. Which changing it from 305 ci to 350 ci will increase the air flow a little. The airflow value is used in each table that is based on ... airflow (gms/sec). These are the tables such as the IAT/CTS blend, integrator delays, O2 window, and so on.

The thing is, going from 305 to 350 isn't much of a change. And, it shouldn't affect the fueling to the extent you are seeing. It seems as though something else is wrong. Correct BIN? Does it do the SES blink at key-on, engine-off?

RBob.
----------
The 5 - 10 IAC steps is in park. Basically no load (A/C off, fan off, etc).

I wouldn't tune AE with PE disabled. When doing it this way there can be too much AE once PE is re-enabled.

RBob.

blown91

when I first got the ebl a year ago it did the same thing and thats what I thought that I was using wrong bin or something so I did't mess with it again then the engine blew and I'm now trying to get the new engine going. With the EBL bin and afew changes made(injector size, sa, idle speed) it runs, idles and revs perfect I can take that bin and only change the cid and its hard to start idles like crap and blows black smoke bad will hardly rev up it never cleans up.

blown91

something else I see in the EBL info page that I should be using chip start c000->FFFF buffer 0000->3FFF I did not notice this I've been using chip 00F000->00FFFF buffer 000000->000FFF how much will this effect it has to causing problems

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That will cause problems. The values you list are correct for the '512 size PROM:

using chip start C000->FFFF, buffer 0000->3FFF

Using the other set of values will have the calibration over writing the code.

RBob.

blown91

Something else I was wondering how much will affect my tune with out a speedometer, I converted from 700r4 to a full manual turbo 350 and it is cable driven so the pcm will never see mph. I didn't notice anything with the old engine drove it this was for 4 or 5 months but the engine had 240,000 miles on it and it did all kind of weird stuff especialy and the supercharger install

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Better off with a VSS however, can be set up without one. You may be able to add an optical pickup unit to the back of the speedometer. Many of the full size vans used these (other trucks did too, just don't know which ones).

The optical pickup attaches with a screw to the speedo head. Wires go to a small buffer box. Then on to the ECM & cruise. Box is usually lime green and sometimes yellow.

RBob.

Colts45s

hey I just bought the ebl flash in the 8746. I have a few ?'s
1. Since it is an 8746 base can I use a VRFPR?
2. How can I get 1 seeing as i have searched and search and can't find a p/n?
3. The final question is... which ebl .bin do I use for my set up?

My set up. 350, 61# injectors, Comp xe268 hyd flat tap, performer intake, 305(casting 416 tpi)heads 1.94 intake 1.5 exhaust, walbro 255 fp, -5cc pistons, headman shorties true ual with h pipe and bullets, and a 2300 rpm stall infront of a 700r4.

I know how to use tuner pro jst fine, I havent installed ebl yet till I get some time.

Thanx

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I gotcha' covered in the PM. Short answers:

1) yes
2) any EFI bypass FPR with a vacuum port (such as the aeromotive 13301)
3) the standard BIN, as it too if for a '416 headed engine

RBob.

sixty

I've read this thread & first wanted to say thanks for all of the great info posted on this thread and on this board!

I installed the EBL last week into my 7746 ECM, setup the bin (EBL_F_TB.BIN) based on my engine, per the EBL docs provided with the and did a few VE learns based on the NB02, but since it seemed too slow I decided to wait on the install of the WB.

Last night I installed my LC-1 WB02 with the Moates O-meter and I was having some inconsistencies in the AFR reported on the Ometer and the Whatsupdisplay. using the prefernce setting of Innovative 05v the WUD shows about 13:1 AFR when the O-meter shows 12:1 when the controller is outputting 1.4v at the EBL analog input and O-meter. If I use the preference setting in WUD of WB0 they read within .1v. I checked the settings on the O-meter and it is setup to read 0v as 7.4:1 and 5v as 22.4:1 just as the LC-1 is supposed to output. should I keep the WB0 setting in the WUD preferences? I noticed that the O-meter has a bias factor that can adjust the reading if the AFR does not match what it "should" because of impedence loading or other effects. So how do I know what the WB02 "should" be reading? I checked the gound impedence at the meter and there is none.

One other thing, I couldn't get the VE learn to work off of the WB (only tried at Idle (around 650rpms), even though I let the CTS get above the 167d min for the VE learn. The idle is very rich, about 11:1 and has my cat glowing red hot (literally) by the time the engine reaches operating temps, is there a way to lean out the idle without using VE learn?

Any tips or help would be great! Thanks Rbob for the great product. I love how simple the EBL flash is to use! I just need alot more time to learn tuning and all of the options I can use. The self install was a piece of cake and took less than 1-hour start to finish.

You can see my engine/ build specs here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...r-383-tbi.html

DM91RS

[QUOTE=sixty;3756136]
One other thing, I couldn't get the VE learn to work off of the WB (only tried at Idle (around 650rpms), even though I let the CTS get above the 167d min for the VE learn. [QUOTE]

IIRC I set Closed loop-CTS Threshold to 151 to lock the blms for WB learn. It's been a while since I used the WB........in other words you don't want it going into closed loop.

sixty

That makes sense. I figured it had to be something simple like that!

Thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

sixty, for the LC-1 WB, program it for:

0V = 10:1
5V = 20:1

Then use the "Innovate(0-5V)" selection in the preferences dialog.

RBob.

sixty

Rbob,

Does the narrower range work better with the EBL?

Thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The short answer is yes. The WUD conversion is set up for the above values. A slightly longer answer is that 10:1 is at the bottom range of the sensor. As that AFR is approached (from above) the sensor output goes flat. Then at the high end (20:1), engines won't run at that AFR.

Keeping a narrower range allows better resolution in the ADC converter.

It is interesting that the LC-1 default values have changed. In the past it was 1 V = 10:1, and 2 V = 20:1. This was so folks could use a DVM to observe the AFR.

RBob.

sixty

Thanks for the long explanation. I figured that AFR scale had changed on the LC-1 and that is why the reported AFR didn't match, when the voltage was identical at both the meter and the EBL.

If I can ever get the collector to seal on the passenger side I could move on to tuning!

brokenparts

I managed to track you down over here sixty... hehheehe. Any word on those rings?

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

Just for kicks and grins I decided to set my open loop AFR table to 14.4 in every cell (since I am running OL) and then did a VE learn with an emulator. After driving around for about a half hour I realized that the learn was not bringing the AFR's down to 14.4 like I assumed would have happened (for the most part). I figured my WB could be off, but even adjusting the table down to 12.0 still had me reading high 13's. I have my PE AFR set to 12.3 and that seems to be accurate. Any idea why? I was going to check and see what Logworks reported, but I can't find the damn cable.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For a VE Learn based on a WB, the commanded AFR is compared to the WB reported AFR. Corrections are based on the difference.

Do a Analysis Dump Log and view the .ebl file. The column labeled AFR is the commanded, the column labeled WB is the reported WB value. See if there are areas where they match, or if the WB value is lower then the AFR value.

Easy for this to happen if there is a too much AE. That will drive down the AFR in the exhaust which causes a richer then normal WB AFR to be reported. And the correction evens out when that is included with the time that the WB AFR is a little leaner then the commanded.

On the VE display any point that has a '.' doesn't have enough data to make a correction. It can also help to set the smoothing factor low or even off. This is when there are only a few data points that have a correction made to them.

For good VE learns, push the gas pedal then hold it. Constant pedal movement is bad for learning.

Are you are running the EmUtility with an Ostrich?

RBob.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

The problem I'm having is that the commanded AFR is richer than what's being reported, so AE wouldn't have anything to with it in this case, right? There are also no exhaust leaks. I think I have my smoothing factor set to 8, so I will try setting it to 0. I'm running the Autoprom as an emulator for the learns.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Best bet is to email me the data log from the VE Learn session.

RBob.

sixty

Sorry I didn't reply to you earlier... you've found the best thread for the best TBI tuning device .

My rings are fine, but I have a big leak at the balancer, throwing ALOT of oil directly on to the exhaust, causing lots of blue smoke at rpm's above 4k. I replaced the balancer seal & it didn't help so I ordered a new balancer & aluminum timing cover on Ebay. Hopefully that should fix it.

As far as tuning, my VE and spark maps are in pretty good shape and the engine pull like a beast, pretty close to the commanded AFR. I REALLY need to get this oil leak figured out so I can get back to tuning, this EBL makes tuning easy, even fun.

The reason I thought it might be rings, was that I had a new cheap ebay billet distributor & I was getting oil being pushed up the shaft & out the reluctor. with that leak and the balancer leak, I thought it might be excess crankcase pressure. I reinstalled the factory distributor & the leak went away.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Just an FYI: on the front of the block, passenger side, is a bolt hole that is exposed to the crankcase. It is in the area of where a mechcanical fuel pump bolts on, but in the front. There are actually two bolt holes, with the upper going through to the fuel pump pushrod channel.

Use a short 3/8 bolt, flat washer and some sealant (PST, Permatex non-hardening, etc) to plug the hole.

When this leaks it sprays oil all over the front and down the passenger side of the engine.

RBob.

sixty

Thanks for the reply, I'll definately check this out as it make sense. Is it possible to access this bolt with stock TBI serpentine brackets in place? I think i know the bolt you are refering to & it is used to bolt the serpentine bracket in place. This could save me ALOT of work!

I actually got under the truck while my wife revved it and all I could see was that oil was somehow getting on the balancer & spraying all over. I'll let you know what I discover.

Thanks!

sixty

It looks like RBob got it. For some stupid reason, I totally omitted the upper bolt. I didn't have a chance to install a bolt last night (picked up a bandsaw on craigslist), but I will tonight.

Thanks RBOB, I owe you a beer!

Val Snyder

Did the closed +unpluged IAC log + entered values in the KPa vs RPM & TPS table.. not enough fuel to run on at lower rpm,(idle),does the entire 400 row need to be max KPa? (Around here 88). Am running OL. Thanks, Val

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

High load Async vs Sync.

DC for sync should be kept under 80-85%. As I understand it, async needs to be 90-95%. I'm assuming sync is easier to tune because async has such a narrow window. Is this correct?

What would be the case where high load async would work best or be necessary?

Concerning 10% ethanol; 14.1 for closed loop is mentioned. What items need to be changed to achieve 14.1 (Other than "Stoich AFR")?

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

INT rich INT median INT lean

14.7/14.0 = 1.05 so I would increase above 5 or 10%

closed loop stoich A/F ratio set to 14.0

I don t know the asynch ans. I run synch only and locked as such.