RBob

iTrader: (1)

. . .is there additional non internet information like a manual that would come with the purchase of the EBL?

Yes to manuals. The documentation is done in HTML so that any web browser can be used with it. There are 3 files: a calibration parameter guide, a What's Up Display (WUD) guide. and a general information guide. The calibration parameter guide has a brief description of nearly every available parameter. It is setup in groups which matches the ECU and XDF definition files.

The WUD guide covers items such as how to set up VE Learns and what the various screens are. The general information guide is a guide to the EBL system. Covers items such as which PROM/Flash to use, burn offsets, the ECM pinout and the ADC inputs.

Do you have any plans of "upgrades" to the EBL, and if so how do you plan on doing these? Obviously you've planned in a lot of future features, but I don't want to buy the EBL, and have a revised board come out next year and have to pay the $$$ all over again. Upgradeable= good. Do you have an auto-update feature or flashing features for software updates integrated into the WUD?

Upgrades are on-going. This is to the BIN code and the WUD. The EBL hardware is pretty much set in stone. The WUD, BIN, doc's are a free upgrade to any user. We don't push these to the customer as it looks too much like spam, but are available via email or CD.

Just throwing out some stuff, and I do realize some of this has been covered marginally, so I appreciate your time to possibly go a little further in depth. Last questions for now.

- B

RBob.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

I have a dumb question that has no academic value whatsoever. Rbob, how many vehicles are running around with the EBL system?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

1x Cammed 3.1 V6

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I have 2 full time and another vehicle that I'll switch between the stock ECM & an EBL ECM. Then another vehicle lined up for a conversion this summer (from a CCC setup).

RBob.

southernspeed

This could turn into an even longer, long thread if everyone chimes in with what they're running. Maybe you should ask RBob how many units he's sold and assume that most are fitted to vehicles!

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

Ya, that's kind of what I meant.

southernspeed

I tried +2* on the 85map + / 1200rpm+ and it didn't seem any more responsive but 'I think' it felt a bit rougher, though no knock. I will try taking 2* out of the original table next time.

There is a VERY noticeable change in engine pitch when it goes into Highway Lean, why is this? It feels fine at say 70mph at stoich, but then I don't even need to look at my WB controller display to know I'm in H/lean. The motor is just sooo smooth at mid 16 afr.
Just curious as to why!

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

Time for the question of the week.

I did some searching, but came up empty. Should there be AFR spikes when it shifts? If not, how do I get rid of them?

One last thing, could someone post an EBL graph of what their quartermile (or 0-60+)run looks like?

liquidh8

My ebl 1/4 mile run is alot of wheel spin and a slow 60 foot from it, I can say that my 1/4 ebl times and the actual time a REAL close. I have timeslips and the coinciding ebl datalogs from the runs. The speed is off, cause my speedo is off, but other than that... I have to get the da@$ print screen thing to work and I'll post some if I can.

Dominic Sorresso

Here's a chart of my 1/4mile run. The numbers generated by EBL were almost "dead nuts" with the actual timeslip.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

So you get the lean spikes also when you shift. It looks like yours are a bit more extreme because it looks like you have a manual tranny. Thanks for posting that.

Here's what mine looks like. It's not from a dragstrip because it was closed yesterday and today it's raining, but it's about a 0-70 run.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

i run a manual and i too see a temporary lean spike(Innovate/Logworks)followed by AE event(TPS AE) and followed another AE event (MAP AE). my AE is much more enriched (12.5/1 ) however? can that log be expanded as far as milliseconds? would be nice if it could show more time definition.

DM91RS

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

Rbob, can you exlpain the IAC - Max CTS for Minimum Idle Adjust constant?

Here's my problem, if I let the truck idle for about 10 minutes, it shuts off. I can't explain this yet, but I'm open to any ideas you might have about this.

My thermostat is 170-degree, and this constant is set at 176 (80C), and I'm wondering if there's a chance this could be the problem, like maybe after 10 minutes of idling it starts to get hot (non-electric fan).

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The IAC - Max CTS for Minimum Idle Adjust value is the temperature that the ECM stops using the Minimum IAC idle steps table and starts to use the learned in IAC steps. Which is the steps it is currently idling at.

At the point of shut-off does the log data log anything that changed?

Usually hot shut down issues are the distributor pickup coil or the ignition module. This can cause the the injectors to stop firing. What will be seen in the data log is a sudden change in RPM.

RBob.

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

I haven't logged it yet but I will. Does 80C sound like a good place to have the constant with my thermostat? (was the bin set up for a 180-195F?)

The distributor is a new OEM replacement with control module. If it were a bad distributor, would there also be problems outside of idle?

I'll try to log it tonight and will post my findings. Thanks

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Is this better?

I run a manual and I too see a temporary lean spike (Innovate/Logworks) followed by AE event (TPS AE) and followed another AE event (MAP AE). My AE is much more enriched (12.5/1) however? Can that log be expanded as far as milliseconds? It would be nice if it could show more time definition.

Val Snyder

Have you tried the dump log feature? Val

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

I'm using a NC 4th gear switch. In the bit mask, do I set to 1 or 0 for this?

There is also an A/C relay polarity. Is there any more info on this and what I should set it to?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With a 170 thermostat I would set the IAC - Max CTS for Minimum Idle Adjust lower. The 170F is 77C, I would use a value of 65 to 70 C. The idea is to have the actual idle IAC steps used once the engine is up to temperature.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If I have it correct an NC 4th gear switch should have the bit mask set to a 0. Most folks don't know if the switch is NO or NC, so I tell them if it isn't locking correctly, flip the bit. Usually I'll have it lock at 36/38 in low gears, then 45/48 in 4th. Easy to tell if the bit is reversed.

For the A/C, unchecked (bit = 0) has the output going low to enable the A/C compressor relay. Which setting to use depends upon how the relay is wired. I've seen GM do it both ways. Low out on the f-body's, and high out on the b-body's to enable the A/C compressor.

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

2.8 S10s are High out on the compressor

The late model 1993-1996 fullsize vans are also high out on the A/C.

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

I fired the beast up for the first time tonight! Everything looks good. The WUD is awesome.

I started to tune a little bit before the 50mph winds drove me inside.

Here's a datalog. Held at steady throttle the engine surges 100-200 rpm. I did a search for the prop gain stuff but didn't get anything concrete.

Things I noticed are the O2 voltage is either min or max. No in between. The RPM surge follows the O2 voltage. The injector DC is low...? Maybe I have too much injector?

thoughts?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

MIC,

Email the log to me.

The one posted seems to be corrupted.

Dominic Sorresso

Fast,

Use Firefox. Its an IE 7.0 issue.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Weird

Downloaded and installed Mozilla Firefox and it worked fine.

Anyway, it has something to do with the proportional gains. The integrator should not be fluctuating like that.

Did you start with my .BIN?

Pulsewidth and DC% are fine. I idle at .8-.9 msec and 600 rpm currently.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Got AE? From my experience, you can pick up some extra power and likely shave off a couple tenths by adding more AE. Its going way lean on tip-in. I have a large unheated RPM airgap manifold, and that needs ungodly large ammounts of AE or it does the same thing. Goes way lean for a second or two and shoots a few ducks untill the manifold reaches steady state again. It hangs onto so much fuel that even with decel enlean pulling almost all the fueling, if I stab it to the floor and lift suddenly, the engine will go straight to the rich burn limit from all the fuel that gets trapped in the manifold. If you have a large manifold, dont be afraid to shovel the gas in there. The larger and cooler it is, the more fuel it hangs onto when the MAP rises suddenly. Itll also need compensation for manifold filling as well. Ive always hadto have a quick shot of gas to keep it from going momentarilly lean, even when I had speed density.

Dominic Sorresso

Mic,

I would drop PG particularly at the 40-60gm/sec range . Do this in 2-5% increments..

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You are on to something Dimented. The manifold is HUGE, considering it is a mini-roots supercharger.

EDIT- Found a link to a prior thread about his car.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...cs-paging.html

Dominic Sorresso

dim,

I found out that I had the PE threshold set too high for the 4k rpm range. So you are correct, motor was lying down at the line until I got to PE. I need to feather the throttle to come off the line and hook up. Not using DRs. Motor was running hot since we were hotlapping and it was lean at the top. I've since found out that motor likes something like 12.2:1 AFR at WOT. Could pick up 2-3mph that way. Part of the issue is that we use 10% Ethanol here in Chicagoland. Waiting to see what happens next time at the track. Hopefully by April.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

We have the same E10 here and I have found the same thing. Stoich is 14.1:1 and WOT likes to be down about 12.3:1.

I don't know what kind of gas Mic is forced to run, but if it happens to be 10% ethanol, a large part of the surge maybe the fact he needs to command stoich at 14.1:1

EDIT-

Found some more info on Mic's TBI swap.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-progress.html

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

We ahve both E10 and standard here, and its hard to notice which is which as its always a little tiny label on the pump that says which is which. Drives me insane. Ive set the WOT AFR to ~12:1 as well.

Heres the issue I was having on sudden tip in. The MAF can track along the desired AFR to within 1-2%, but on tip in, it used to go way lean, which shows in the old datalog snapshot below. Ive since added additional compensation for manifold temp. With all the AE it blows more soot then a freight train, but the throttle response is awsome, whether the engine is hot or cold, and its much better on the WB. Still is a littlw quirky every now and then, but at least its not having all the lean tip-in issues it used to have when it got real cold out.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

LOL! I love it! Got any shots of it roasting the narrow *** stock tires off the rims?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That car has me wanting to drop my 312 with the weiand on it into my 1988 Sedan Deville Brougham in place of the TBId 307 (has the dual pattern 2004r in it).

EDIT- Reminds me of this Impala video that I found on YouTube.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mXHqFBbuXIM

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

Thanks all! I don't have any video yet...YET

I run 93 octane here but it IS 10% ethanol. Can't get anything else 'round here. You mean I should set the stoich AFR to 14.1 because of this?


Dom, do you mean "Gain Multiplier vs. Airflow" ?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Yes to the Stoich AFR change.

I believe you have the table Dominic was talking about.

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I started with your bin. I'm going to try less PG vs airflow and more timing around idle. I've been lowering the BPC by 1 as well.

Thanks for the input on the DC%. I was afraid the injectors were too much.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Im in the same boat as Fast. The only issues Ive had are AFRs leaning out at very low PW's. Probably due to some non-linearity in the injectors. Sometimes itll cause the idle to dip. There is a bias table for short PW's that can be adjusted. One of these days ill mess with it and see if it helps.

As for the prop. gains, if you increase the size of the injector, you need to decrease the prop. gains by that same ammount in order to maintain the same ammount of corrections. IOW, double the injector, and the prop. gains need to be halved. Try this for starters. It should at least get it closer to where it has to be.

91chevz71

I'm a little hazy on the PRP stuff- does everything need to be halved, or just all values in the Duration vs O2 and Duration Offset?

Dominic Sorresso

Thought you guys would be interested in this thread if you're using a VAFPR.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...th-filter.html

Val Snyder

Am confused (of course),on OL fueling. VE table provides the base value for all modes of operation,0,1,or2. The OL AFR vs CTS&VAC develops entered AFR from VE table for cruise (1)? Idle (0) is from VE table ,lean limited to value in OL idle lean limit. 2 is decel which is 'influenced' by the DE settings? DFCO being a different creature which also operates within 2? When in 1, VE table value is tweaked by values in OL AFR vs CTS&VAC or does OL AFR vs CTS&VAC only provide a target for learn VE corrections? If a person needs to run a richer AFR at lower rpms, say up to 1500,is it going to be better to enter the desired cruise AFR in the OL table and increase the lower RPM areas in the VE table to richen the mix? (Problems with idle going soggy) Or enter the needed low RPM AFR in the OL table and lower the values in the higher portion of the VE tables? OR,can I simply(love that term) enter the richerAFR in the OL table and leave the figures above 1500 or so alone,ending up with the original cruise AFR values but having to redo the lower values? Do the values in the VE tables (ideally) represent a stoichometric mixture that all modes modify to one extent or another. Is it workable to weight VE values or will that result in glitchy operation? I hope that I have not merely spread confusion here. Thanks for your help, VAl

scott92RS

Is is normal to go into async when in DE mode? The Whats Up software has about two issues when running Vista on my new laptop like it doesn't always save the new ve as a bin (just add change file format to bin file) and the datalogs can't be viewed from within (Viewed on desktop with XP and previous OS).

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If you are going to run open loop fueling all of the time, the VE table can be tweaked to produce a richer (or leaner) AFR. Note in PE mode there is a separate table for the commanded AFR.

The OL AFR vs CTS&VAC table is used for both creating the injector PW (amount of fuel to inject), and the target AFR for VE Learn via a WB. So the VE Learn using a WB will change the VE table to target the commanded AFR (from the OL AFR table).

The values in the VE tables only represent the volumetric efficiency of the engine. The desired AFR is multiplied into the VE along with some other terms to create the PW. At this point the AFR is defined by the amount of air moving into the chambers along with the fuel defined by the PW.

Open loop fuling PW is calulated as:

PW = BPC * VE * ~AFR * MAP * ~T

BPC being the ratio of displacement and injector flow rate
VE being volumetric efficiency relative to manifold pressure
~AFR inverse air to fuel ratio, commanded
MAP manifold absolute pressure
~T inverse temperature (CTS & IAT)

There are also battery voltage corrections involved for the injector opening time.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With DE mode reducing the injector PW going into async mode is normal. Watch for leaning and bucking while in async mode. If it happens then disable async mode by setting the transition Hi & Lo values to 0. This mostly happens on engines with larger then stock injector flow rates.

Interesting about Vista, sounds like it doesn't like the file name extensions. I'll email you separately to discuss the issue.

RBob.

scott92RS

RBob, it is true I'm using 80lbs injectors now with the same pressure and the response is addictive after a little AE boost I could pass cars (Non PE) like they were almost standing still. The issue about Vista I will response later after I do some maintenance to the file server at work. Thanks!

91chevz71

I staying home sick today and have been reading tons of posts on BPC, the EBL, and the 350 HO (current engine in my truck).
COuple of concerns with my truck- I still am using the stock TBI fuel pump, with 2 90 lb inj and a fresh stock regulator.
I also have the 750 cfm SBC T-body from xtremefi (ebay).
1. does a BPC (for the BPC vs. VAC table) of 91 sound correct for a 350 that makes 330 HP? Pressure is 13 PSI, using 90 lb/hr inj's.
2. I have changed a few things, including
A. adding 1/3 more AE in the TPS and MAP tables
B. decreasing PRP gain mult VS airflow to compensate for the 90's (decreased by 1/3)
C. Async fuel disabled
D. idle is 600 rpm warm in drive and park, IAC steps 10-15.
E. Idle SA option is checked, idling at about 28 deg advance
Seems like the 350 HO and tbi vortec manifold are pretty common, just wondering if using 90's is the best way to go.
I recently swapped in a three wire O2 and with each VE learn session the O2 keeps pulling fuel, giving a false rich condition. THe idle VE is about 27%, and this seems wrong. The exhaust burns my eyes-(rich, right?) lol. I decided to start from scratch with a bin from Jprevost (idle area VE about 50-54) and the truck runs much better, but the damn O2 keeps pulling fuel. I thought- "I'm in Denver, air is 20 percent more thin", but it seems the VE should not be THAT low.
Mechanically, I don't have any issues now (intake leaks, exhaust leaks), my sensors seem to be working correctly (minus the O2). What confuses me is that when I first started tuning, my INT/BLM was solid at 128 at idle and throughout. SOmething makes me think the O2 is not functioning correctly. I pulledit and it looks normal (no white stuff or carbon deposits) blah blah blah
Anyway, I guess I'm calling on the experience of you guys to give me the best INJ/Fuel pressure combo. I have a walbro 255 on the shelf, my stock L05 inj's, 9C1 inj's, and 90's. Also an AFPR. When I have the guage on the tbi, it bounces from 13-15 with key on/engine off. Being the stock pump, I think I should just replace it
What else should I change in the bin to reflect large injectors at a low psi?

I know I bounce around alot, just writing everything that comes to mind
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Mike

liquidh8

Nope, not really. Did you use the formula? The pressure sounds kinda low for the low BPC of 90 though. But the BPC isn't set in stone. If your VE table run out of room, you could raise the BPC to get some more adjustment out of it.
----------
Which prop gain tables should be cut in half?? I haven't did that yet, I lowed one of the table by a value or two, but not in half?

91chevz71

Yep, used the formula. DId the math twice to make sure. of course, who knows what my crusty fuel pump actually puts out when it's hot. I'm just going to change it and set the FP to 15 psi when I get some time. THen I'll recalc the BPC to reflect and change the flow scalar and whatever else.

91chevz71

Just for kicks, I set the BPC to 100 and did a few VE learns. As predicted, the O2 kept pulling fuel. Idle area is now 19 percent. THe DC% rose, but that makes sense. New O2 sensor maybe

Pre-Tuner

iTrader: (2)

That makes sense that it would be pulling fuel, since raising the BPC increases the amount of fuel delivered. You should get a WBO2 to see what's really happening. In my opinion, you're not getting everything out of the EBL without it.

You're stock pump would be OK around town, but I guarantee you'll go lean at WOT. I have the 255 pump and the pressure's so high that I can't adjust the regulator (holley) down further than about 15psi. It's pretty kick-***.