1bdbrd

iTrader: (1)

i know this by rules can go either place so i figured here would be better since you guys know the stock ECU inside and out.

heres the deal:

i outright refuse to burn new proms. period. IMO its a waste of time and money and is redundant for my situation (boosted) where tuning takes a long time to get absolutely right. so to that end ive been searching for standalone setups. i came across the Greddy Emanage Ultimate which is a piggyback setup. it tunes fuel, spark and timing tables just like a regular standalone but you keep your stock ECU instead of compeltely replacing it. this is common on Hondas and other imports instead of tuning the stock ECU and they seem to have good luck with it.

now my question:

will this work with our PROM based ECU? i dont see why not but i dont know very much about things of this nature. i did a search just now and returned 2 whole threads and they were only included because someone mentioned the Emanage in the thread. but never someone using one. thoughts?

*EDIT*forgot to include a link to info about it.

http://www.greddy.com/prod_e_manage_ult.htm

Grumpy

So a search for Prominator, and Ostrich. With that info., you should be able to get a grasp of what's currently available, instead of using the dated info., you're dealing with.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That may or may not be true. Someone that understands how an ECM works and an engine works can tune very quickly and very cheaply. If you don't understand ECMs and engine dynamics (or don't care to), then aftermarket is the way to go.
Tuning is all a matter of opinion. I think my new $58 setup runs bad. Every average Joe import driver and non-import driver can't believe how well it runs. Ask them....it runs excellent, ask me and it runs bad. More tuning next spring.
I built my emulator that can change spark, timing, etc and even the actual program (code) on the fly while the engine is running. If I chose to have the ECM control extra relays for things such as NOS, trans brake, line lock, water/alky injection, wasgegates, etc. All that with a simple code change while the engine is running. You won't get with any aftermarket ECM.

It is all up to if you want better than aftermarket ECM performance, OEM performance, or something in between performance. It is all a matter how much time and/or money you want to put into it AND how well you want it to run.
Things you may want to check out: Megasquirt, Moates hardware, Xtronics hardware, MonteCarSlow's ALDL on-the-fly tuner ($50 for an emulator with excellent reliability).
Tuning an engine is a personalized thing. Everyone tunes for what they like so your idea of running well may be someone elses idea of it running bad.

1bdbrd

iTrader: (1)

the problem i have is that i may be using as Grumpy said, old info. last i checked into tuning my stock PCM, it was still a very labored process that would take trial and error just like an aftermarket standalone but instead of just trying again i have to burn a new prom. ill check into these new products and see whats up with them.

one question, i know my stock MAP is a 1 bar. ive seen of 2 bar setups from the Sys and Tys. but other than that, what do i do about boost pressure? once the engine is built, i plan on running atleast 20psi if not more depending on turbo size. AFAIK a 2 bar MAP wont be enough then. and what have people run into as far as hp limits of the stock computer? i know most running over 800 in an LS1 car start looking at aftermarket setups so the tune is more effective.

Grumpy

Be glad you're not of the era where you had to disassemble the carb to change jets, or yank the distributor out to change the curve, to some that was labored process... Tuning EFI is like shooting fish in a barrel. Yes, you have to do some learning, but it's hardly what one would call work, IMO.

GM makes a 3 bar MAP sensor, and most all the aftermarket ecms use it.

There are GNs running in the 9s with the old C3 computers.
*More effective?*, or just easier to dink with?. Effective would mean higher resolution tables, and more advantagous software, which just isn't the case from what I've seen. They make it easier at the expense of resolution, and the little tweaks that make a car more manageable to drive.

BMmonteSS

In case you didn't know, your 91 bird has the '730 ecm, which will run the sy/ty $58 code. So your already setup for the boosted code.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

You still need to tune the parameters just as you would the ECM directly. It may have nicer software and a few other goodies on it to make it a neat toy but it still is just a controller that needs to be tuned to do the job correctly.
Extra I/O that are programmable is nice.
The std tune of the unit piggybacking an existing system just seems to double the probability that starange things can happen.
My buddy has a STi that has a piggyback, runs great but still has intermittant CE lights etc that the fake signals can't satisfy.
Still lots of learning on what the base code is doing would help when programming a secondary device.
Just my opinion.

Doward

I'm in a similar boat as you - and let me tell you, it is WORTH it to learn the GM electronics. I'm getting an '88 Toyota Supra Turbo for free, and I'm extremely excited about it - I mean, hey, it's a SUPRA, right?

No.

It's a draw through MAF based turbocharged setup. EXACT SAME THING I HAD ON MY '88 CAMARO TURBO V6 SETUP.

The difference between draw through MAF turbo, and speed density '749 turbo, are amazing. I absolutely love it. No worries about Fuel Cut at varying boost levels, based on temperature and barometric pressure, and the ability to build a timing curve based on boost, is very nice.

Of course, I found a way to get all that on the Supra, too. AEM EMS system.

'749 - $80 at the local auto parts store.
AEM - $1500-1700, on the internet.

I have the strangest feeling, I may very well end up with a GM electronics based Toyota Supra in the future

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The other great thing about GM electronics is the excellent support that is found on this board.

1bdbrd

iTrader: (1)

what are your plans for the supra? if its nothing major, just run a v8 lexus AFM with some 550cc injectors and a SAFC. last time i looked, that was the setup of choice for the MKIII crowd...

like i said above, my entire problem with my 749 is that to my current knowledge theres not a tune of the fly setup available. i could be wrong, but to me effective means that if its running a bit rich while im driving, i dont have to pull over and burn a new prom with what i think is right. rather a few key strokes and upload the new tune (obviously a bit harder than that) and away i go. and ya i knew my stock ecu was good with boost. just have never seen someone run some higher boost numbers with one. most switch to carb (for some stupid reason) or dont run much more than 10 or so psi. i ultimately plan to atleast DOUBLE that. if not more. i just dont think the stock ecu is the way to go for me.

Grumpy

So a search for Prominator, and Ostrich. With that info., you should be able to get a grasp of what's currently available, instead of using the dated info., you're dealing with.

You also might do a search for the 3-bar patch.

If you're not going to bother searching, then for sure the AEM is the best answer for you, IMO. Tuning to get the most out of an engine is work, if all you want is quick and easy, then you're results will show it. While on the fly might be the answer for small changes, rarely do people take notes when doing on the fly (to date I've never seen it happen), and it's in note taking that you get to see the little changes, and document what they mean for your combination. It's the ability to review and note changes that often lead to answers, and the development of more HP, or more engine life. Instant gratification, while great when playing video games, but, can cause you to lose your way in tuning, and *misss the tune* all together.