They have piqued my curiosity as of late,

I have read tidbits here and there as to how they work, that there is a sensor in the fuel line that can somehow tell the percentage of alcohol vs gasoline is entering the engine... that seems like it would be difficult to do

anyone know how this works? And in relation to prom burning, how does the code adapt? I know that as the % of alcohol increases so must the inj pw and perhaps timing, but surely its not linear... that could get very complex

It would be kind of neat to do a 730 or 148 with some ffv code

Id actually really like to try it

 

*Rumor* has it, the new Fords will be using a WB, and at start-up read the AFR, and then be able to see how far rich or lean things are, and then do a guestimate of what the injector is flowing. knowing what was in the tank at shut down, gives the ecm a clue as to where to start. It's at refueling when things get need to be quick at figuring out the new blend.

A WB closed loop strategy for a DIY'er should be close enough to *do it*.

 

That's a pretty sweet idea for a project (making our cars flex fuel). Maybe could be as simple as a pot and a table. Kind of lets you mix and match. Turn **** fully left for full tank of E85, full right for fuel, in between for in between.

Would maybe have it change something universal in the calibration. Like Injector constant or something. Of course not all ecu's use a universal (including AE, cranking, etc..) injector constant, but that's just in the details, for ya'll to figure out.

Could also make it "smart" as Grumpy says. Sounds a tad more difficult. A two phase design might be the better way to attack it, like start with a **** until a good algorithm can be made for the WB.

Of course, make sure the fuel system can handle all the alcohol. EVERY piece of it.

 

I don't think this will be a problem. With no return line from the engine (in tank regulator) the fuel composition will not immediatelt change. Couple this with a properly designed fuel filter and the change will be very slow. The key is not returning the old fuel to the tank and mixing the fuel in the filter so that the fuel exiting the filter gradually changes composition.

HTH

John

 

Hehe, I thought of a super simple way to do it, but seems a little hick. Just put a remote **** or lever for an adjustable fuel pressure regulator on it.

Not sure what you'd really need to do with timing. It could probably use more timing, in most places, but maybe no change will work good enough while you test the fuel changes.

 

I saw the show on History Channel where they showed Brazil is pretty much all using E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline.) GM actually makes some FFV's also. Problem is, I can't find anywhere that has E85, much less E10! The only place that actually has it near me is NASA, and it's not a public refueling facility. (I work about 2 miles from JSC/NASA, so it would actually be convienent if it was public.)

I did read up on a study where some students tested some FFV vehicles and on average, the mileage was about 3-5 MPG less than using gasoline. Of course, at half the cost or less than gasoline, it's well worth it. What I didn't see any reports on, was whether there was a power loss.

My concern is corrosion - doesn't ethanol require a special rubber for the fuel lines..?

Otherwise it's a great idea - I'd love to see a hack for doing flex-fuel!

 

Just another whacky idea is to do a bin switcher, and load them up in such a way that is intuitive.

Then you could have fuel and spark on demand, and whatever else is needed, without any code change.

As far as I can remember, you want to keep things stainless steel if possible (inside pumps, fuel rails, injectors, fittings, etc..), and reduce the amount of contact with aluminum. The rubber should probably have an inner flourine liner (with no knicks or cuts, which means use the right fittings).

 

Sorry, but I have to laugh when I read all this conjecture about ethanol and blends.

You need to get out more often:

http://forums.s-series.org/viewtopic.php?t=42867

Ethanol is not highly corrosive. Methanol is highly corrosive. There is a big difference in the two. If you are using methanol, you need EPDM or Buna hoses, no brass in the system, and expect problems with the insulation in the pump and injectors. If you have Multecs, expect problems anyway.

I've run E-85 in my '96 S-10 and '00 Astro. They aren't designed for E-85, but it doesn't matter. I researched a bit before I started the experiment, and about all I could find was that the fuel pump, filter, and injectors are different. My pump, filter, and injectors ran fine on the higher ethanol percentages, althogh one of the Multecs failed during the test. I can't determine if it was due to the higher ethanol percentage, or if it was a typical Multec failure. The coil insulation went south, to about 5 ohms. Since they seem to do that anyway, and the truck had 126K miles, I can't be sure if it was coincidence or alcohol. I suspect eh extra alcohol accelerated it, but I've seen Multecs fail at 70K on regular gasoline in the same manner.

There is no difference in the PCM. I strongly suspect the programming is different, however, allowing the integrator the ability to write data tables faster to react to fuel changes. I would also suspect that the timing advance is a lot more aggressive, since E-85 is about 106 octane, and will tolerate a lot more advance to compensate for the power loss. With no extra advance, I lost about 3.5% in fuel mileage. Higher percentages of ethanol need more timing to take full advantage. I'd expect to find very fast attack and recovery rates on the EST and more aggressive advance tables for E-85. Injector flow can be left alone, so long as the BLM can offset the pulse widths faster to compensate for the changes in fuel.

Grumpy is right. Regardless of fuel, the ideal setup is a wideband. GM, Toyota, Honda, and others already are using them. In a flex fuel application, it would be even more important.

I've been using "regular" gasohol (10%) since 1976. It's now about all we get around here. I've adjusted injector constants to compensate for 10% ethanol and think I've found the optimal rate. I really need a dyno and several different types of fuel for a proper test, though.

Fuel sensor? That one I need to see. I'd also like to see how the O² output changes as soon as higher ethanol percentages are used. I'm suspecting that more oxygen will be in the exhaust stream as an inherent combustion byproduct, so tuning strictly on one WB may not be most effective, but a "check" sensor after a cat would solve most of that.

 

THANK YOU

I was posting the same thing about the myths surrounding Ethanol and corrosion when my computer locked up and I lost my post


The oil companies love that myth.


about the fuel sensor

thats just something I read and I thought it sounded fishy myself which is why I was asking how it worked. Im sure it could just be a case of those who are car-ignorant making things up.

 

AARRRGGGHH!

Don't you just HATE that? Just about the time you've fat-fingered in a page or three, and BLAMMO! Mr. Gates strikes again!

Tried a Mozilla-based browser instread of Internet Destroyer?

In my research, I founf no such information regarding a "fuel type sensor" for FFVs. Granted, I researched mostly GM variants, since that's what I had been planning to use in the expoeriment, but I didn't stumble across anything like that from Ford, Toyota, or anyone else.

This would be an excellent time for a certified GM Technician to pipe in and set us straight, since there have been GM FFVs for at least five years now.

 

Damn, now I REALLY wish I had access to some Ethanol. Thanks for shedding some positive light on this subject - I have a '93 Blazer (full size) I'd love to try it in. Just wish they'd carry it down here by the Gulf. I wonder where NASA tanks it in from..?

 

Wouldn't a simple a/b switch and 2 different stoich values take care of most of it?



Mozzilla browsers- love mine, on the desktop.
Can guarranty at least one dump while using the laptop and bumping the touch pad by accident. Doesn't l/u up, just closes the program......
Must keep blunt objects out of reach.......


I had a station that sold e85 about 2 miles from my house in socal. They said I needed a card to buy. "What card"?
Some gov. issue pos...

 

theres more benefits besides those too,

higher octane

higher latency of heat (car runs cooler, less knock prone)

almost no carbon build up

far less emissions

and, you can run alot more C/R or Boost The boost side is why I am interested in it so much. There was a thread on turbomustangs.com about a guy with a TT 347 setup who experimented with E85

He decided to stop upping the boost on the dyno when he reached 30 psi and 1000 hp

 

Yep, california the "eco conscious" state only has ONE public E85 station in the ENTIRE state!

Its down here in san diego and its also a ford dealership. They sell all kinds of fuels to go along with their FFV showroom.

Would be a shame to see all the Test-Only smog stations fold if the fuel changed to one that emitted so little pollutants the test became pointless.

Fat chance that will happen, the govt created this huge test only lobby and now it cant be killed


BTW it wasnt a browser error, Ive been using firefox for years now (since firebird) The pos computer at work had the HD crap out on me
. Ive never seen computers as unreliable as the ones purchased by the federal govt. Its remarkable really.

 

F*ord's have sensor that reports to the ECM the percentage of alcohol in the fuel. With that information the ECM only needs to change the commanded AFR for the PW calculation. Same with the timing. More alky, more timing. My understanding is that the sensor is capacitance nature.

A troubleshooting article with some decent info is here:

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/dec2004/techtips.cfm

RBob.

 

Quoted from the above link:
Ford has eliminated the FF sensor on the Taurus for model years 2000 and newer, and only uses fuel trims and O2 activity to calculate alcohol content.


Yep, look at a WB, see what the BL/Int are, then switch to the appropriate timing and fuel tables. *Actually* blending of the two sets of tables depending on BL/Int numbers.

 

Bingo..

 

The Real problem with ethanol E85 isnt emissions or code or the controls systems themselves. The problem is economically producing enough ethanol. currently it takes 2 gallons of diesel fuel to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. That includes harvesting the corn, etc then trucking storing packing friehting transfering. this doesnt even include all the electricity involved in actualy refining the fuel.

 

From a couple of SAE resources the "fuel sensors" can be either capacitor or optical based.
I bet Saab's variable compression engine would be a good canidate for FFV's. Add a little turbo to it and do a lot of research to gain mpg and power . I wonder if they just reduce the compression when they detect some detonation?
Here's another quick idea. Converted single plane to MPFI with a TBI on top. Run the TBI with the E85 solution and the MPFI with the gas. 1 fuel cell for the E85 and some computer support... too bad I can't find E85 anywhere around here.

 

That is how I am planning to run LPG in the near future. Except I want to use the Edelbrock MPFI intake that I have. The MPFI will be gasoline and Propane will be on top.

 

somebody put up an email adress. ill put something useful in your inbox on this e85 issue.

 

If your still at OSU, there is a station in Hilliard.

 

NJ . At least I don't have to pump my own gas...

 

I service alot of USPS mail trucks at work which are all FFV's 2000-2001 Ford Explorer 4x4 frames with a 4.0. The E85 is very corrosive compared to gasoline. I've had the "opportunity" of changing about 30 fuel pumps because the E85 pretty much dissolved all the factory installed pumps.

My primary concern would be the E85 attacking all the seals and O-rings in the OEM fuel system.

 

chewbaccathedog@hotmail.com

send it funstick

and regarding ethanol having a negative energy balance, the data used to support that is old.
there is tons of information out there to disprove that. Brazil's energy system runs itself. Their ethanol production has an energy SURPLUS and they dont do things as efficiently as we could. Their ethanol plants end up selling surplus electricity to the power company.

Do some research on it, wikipedia has a couple good articles on it with plenty of links. Search for E85 and Alcohol Fuel

 

That makes me begin to wonder about the actual cost of extracting crude, shipping it, refining it, blending it, pipelining it, and trucking it so we can buy one gallon of gasoline. Ethanol producers around here (several plants, more being built with a lot of investor interest) seem to be making money by supplying it to fuel station operators, who are selling at a retail cost of $1.69/gallon. They are making such a good return that more investors than they can handle want a piece of the pie.

Brazil is just a larger scale example of that. Since the oil companies are not heavily involved (yet), there is not a lot of interest outside some regional successes and government mandated programs.



V-8,

How long does a "normal" Ford fuel pump last? All my Rochester pumps have been on 10% ethanol since I've owned them. So far.... No, I'm not going to say it.

 

you've got mail.

 

you also have to look at the long terms effects of growing that much corn. the rain forest is being destroyed at an alarming rate so they can feed the energy needs buy growing corn. then the heavily nitrogenated soils dont support more rain forest regrowth.

 

we have a very large ethanol refinery in my back yard. Cambria, Wi. it ships all over US and maybe Canada.

as aside note can anyone comment on propane injection?

like on demand in conjuction with standard 93 octane gasoline. BSFC i believe is the term. how would propane affect it? i suspect 85% ethanol produces a lower BSFC ? so enrichment is required in jetting or fuel tables assuming 14.7/1 is a target.

 

FYI Brazil does not use corn in their ethanol production process. They use sugar cane

Even here we are not stuck w/ only corn. Almost any plant material can be made into ethanol. There has been alot of talk about using switch grass actually since it is VERY easy to grow and would not require as much energy imput. I love E85 I use it almost exclusively in my FFV 2000 GMC sonoma. It also alowed my 85 Z to fast pass IL emissions with no smog equipment aside from a cat and some electrical tape over the check engine light My car is bad need of some tunning too.

 

 

Everything I've read on E85 puts it's octane number between 102 and 106. If one were to build a small block to use E85 (not flex-fuel, mind you, but E85 exclusively), what kind of compression ratio could that octane support?

 

Great question Black89WS6. Also, I wonder why they don't at least advise on what the actual (M+R)/2 octane is??? I kind of thought it was mandatory. Maybe they do, just have to look (I can't, sorry).

On another idea - having been to LA and other highly polluted areas (- just imagine: China - emissions controls are a "new" thing) - I would have to agree that even at an overall emissions/consumption penalty, I can imagine literally SEEing the difference if you can just displace the emissions to the unpolluted midwest, etc... rather than the moving parking lots that are called cities.

 

I'm running E85 at the moment, we have 4 pumps in Tucson that carry E85. Still in the tuning phase, though.

From my research I've found that you can up your compression ratio around 1.5-2 points on E85. I'm running stock compression and just upping the timing for now as a test. The octane rating on the pumps here says 102.

I've done the full conversion because I've actually seen galvanic corrosion that was a result from ethanol at work. I replaced all my lines, pumps, filters, seals, etc. I'm currently running Viton injector O-rings, but I damaged one on installation so I'm running a stocker on my #1 injector. If it starts leaking I'll know for sure if I can run Autozone injector seals or not.

I like the idea of using the WB to adapt to the fuel automatically. And I just happen to have a WB... hrm..

Happy new year.