BMmonteSS

Seems like there is little to no talk of editing LS1's on these boards. I really don't like the options that are availble on the 4th gen site. I just can't bring my self to pay 400-500 bucks for editing software, that isn't even complete or even understood. I've decided that a quest for 450 to 500 hp will be more easily and cheaply accomplished with a LS series engine and attached 6 speed. I'll have about the same amount of money in a gen 1 small block as I might be able to get a whole engine tranny combo out of a camaro. The gen 1 would be built up to take more than that HP level, but I can't argue with the potential of the LS heads. They flow 25 cfm more than some of the best street heads.

So what would it take to get an LS to run on a 730? I know the coil packs pose a problem. What else would be hurdle?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

eDist takes care of the coil packs. May need to use a standard ignition module (such as a '88-'92 f-body unit) to provide for proper EST handshaking and an interface to the eDist. This module wouldn't be used to fire a coil, just to handle the EST signaling.

For fueling easiest would be to convert to a return style system with a vacuum referenced bypass fuel pressure regulator (ala' TPI). The LS1's are a static presssure dead-head style with the software compensating for the variation in manifold pressure.

RBob.

BMmonteSS

wow, I didn't know the coil pack inteface problem wasn't that big of a problem. With that solved the only sensors that I can think of that might be hard to retrofit is the IAC, LS1's don't have one right? and the knock sensor, LS1's have the dual knock sensors in the lifter valley, so could I just replace one with the 730 compatible one? As for fueling I read pretty recently how some guys are instaling the LS1 crate engines by using an external regulator much like one you would run for a carb that just keeps the outlet line pressurised to the desired pressure and the return line is incorporated into the regulator, hopefully you can vacume reference one of those to emulate the stock TPI stuff.

Being able to use a 730 to run a LS1 would be so cool, and help keep the price of the swap down. It's much easier to get a motor without the wiring harness and ecm from the yards around here.

Grumpy

You can get the LS1 tuning stuff from Tunercat now, so the price isn't that outrageous. ie $379, for the package.

The LS1 fly by wire is a whole nother deal. I don't know of any way yet to interface the FBW throttle with a 730.

JP84Z430HP

Use a truck TB. They have the normal TPS and IAC that we're used to. I'm pretty sure they bolt right on.

BMmonteSS

The 6.0L motor was kinda the plan all along. I think I'll have a better chance of picking one of those up cheap, and I have room for the taller intake. Some of the dyno test I've read about are very impressive. Looks like 450-500 hp is just a cam swap and free flowing exhaust away.

I didn't know tuner cat offered LS1 stuff, if it's not locked to a specific ecm only a specific part number I might consider that. Just seems like a racket to lock the software to one ecm.

Edit: I just looked over tuner cat's website and didn't see a thing about the LS1 stuff. You know something we don't grumpy?

Grumpy

He might not have updated his site yet, but they are available. Well, I hope so, I sent my check off to him last week.
I want one for a 97 LT1, and that should be available later this month, the LS1 is available now.

JP84Z430HP

I agree on the locking to a specific vehicle being crappy, especially for the price!

I remember someone else talking about having to email tuner cat about the newer stuff since they don't have it on their web site.

Grumpy

Tunercat's not.

BMmonteSS

Thank *** there are still decent people in the world. I'll have to see if they have the stuff to do truck ecm's. I hate to give up the advanced features the newer ecm's have to offer, but at the same time all those extra features aren't worth didly if they aren't understood. From what Grumpy says and what I've seen on the 4th gen boards they really don't have a good grasp on their ecm's yet. Plus the cost of just the MAF for the new stuff I could have a complete old school setup. Guess it'll depend on what kind of deal I get from the yard.

Grumpy

TC has always been one of the good guys.
Ah, I did save it, here's a snippet of the email from TC.

The OBDII Tuner is now available for some vehicles and others are planned for release shortly. Support for the following vehicles is now available:

OBD2_07 1996 - 1997 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.7L, 7.4L)
OBD2_06 1998 - 2000 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.7L, 7.4L)
OBD2_02 1999 - 2000 LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L)
OBD2_01 1999 - 2001 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LS1
OBD2_03 2001 - 2002 LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L)

The following are scheduled for release early this year:

OBD2_04 2003 - 2004 LS1 Trucks (4.3L, 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L)
OBD2_08 1996 - 1997 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LT1
OBD2_09 1997 - 1998 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LS1
OBD2_05 2002 - 2003 Camaro/Firebird/Corvette LS1
OBD2_10 2004 Corvette

The OBDII Tuner package sells for $379.95 and includes the following:

OBDII Tuner Program on CD
OBDII/RS232 Interface
OBDII Cable
RS232 Cable
Your choice of one Vehicle Definition File
Additional Vehicle Definition Files can be purchased for $79.95 each.

BJM

As far as I have been able to tell, the Tuner Cat LS-1 stuff does not include a data logger. For me that would be the biggest stumbling block because I need a scan tool as well. Unless TunerCat has a scan tool and I don't know it, then its actually more expensive than the other packages out there.

I have also noticed that the 4gen guys seem to buy tuning software without any clue how the ECM operates. I am glad I learned on my OBD-1 Buick T-Type first and learned assembler along the way.

For my LS-1 I am leaning towards HPTuners. Yes it has the crappy licensing but realistically I am only going to tune my 1 car. It lets you at least read and reflash the whole PCM operating system. If I want to I can upgrade to a more expensive calbe that allows integrated datalogging of several inputs (like a wide band) all time stamped along with the PCM data.

I wish the TunerCat website would get updated, I might be convinced to go that way, but not without be able to research it first.

3.8TransAM

Same email i got from TC Bruce :-)

I'm opposed to the VIN locking editors. I have too many friends with cars who have no clues about ecm's or how to tune. Besides I like to be able to play at will and with whatever is around when I have the time....

The TC setup seems to be the best bang for the buck, but it does shoot u in the foot when u realize u do need to have a datalogging setup for it as well........

Wouldnt doubt if TC would come out with his own as well. Never hurts to ask, as TC has always been extremely helpful when it comes to new releases and software updates as well as the status of projects in the pipelines.

lol and yes a large amount of what I see on the 4th gen boards scare me for the LT1 and LS1. OUtside of a few, doesnt seem like there is much working knowledge, let alone free exchange of ideas other than "Well, give me $$$ and I can fix that for you"

*sigh*

later
Jeremy

BJM

This is the one place I have found where ideas are welcomed and expected. On a Buick board that shall remain nameless the knowledgeable people try to keep knowledge from spreading, its pathetic.

BMmonteSS

Wow 80 bucks for each additional vehicle platform, man the tuner shops will be hopping on this like flies on .....well you know. I'll give tuner cat 500 bucks and then pay more for a scanner just for the fact that the software isn't locked. I'll only need it for one vehicle, but thats not the point, it's just pathetic that those other companies price their products like they do. I guess you have to look at the customer, 90% of them don't have a clue.

What do you guys think of the new PCM's? Are they too complicated for the mediocre tuner to dabble with, or are they pretty leanent with their dual map/maf setup? I'll be starting with an all stock engine, so I guess I really don't have anything to worying about. I feel like I've just mastered the 747 and I hate to move on now that I'm pretty comfortable with this ecm, but hey no pain no gain.

Grumpy

It's an editor, if you want a scanner, that's something else entirely.
Actron, makes an OBDII scanner for about $270. And there are others that use laptops.

More expensive?, please tell me how you figure that?, the only other editing software is alot more expensive, and locked to only one pcm.

Grumpy

Would you mind explaining that comment?.

Not to mention some folks leave clues, rather then just lead folks around. It doesn't teach anyone anything when you lay everything out on the table.

Grumpy

I've spent a few hours, OK, maybe awhile with a 95 LT1 that was the OBDI/OBDII deal. And really liked it.

Been tinkering with a few OBDII cars, and really like the diagnostics. They can make trouble shooting all the easier.

Like any new tool, there'll be bugs, and a learning curve, but isn't that to be expected?. Tuning will always be about just giving an engine what it wants.

BJM

I feel the same way you do but its time to move on. There are a few guys who seem to have a handle on setting up of their speed-density tune with the MAP turned off and then getting the MAF curve figured out after that. At least the 4th gen guys want to learn. Too many of the Buick crowd just want to buy chips and they don't care at all how anything works. Its a small community so its below critical mass in getting an forum like this one going.

BJM

Grumpy, you are one of the big exceptions to what I'm talking about. You spend a lot of time experimenting and best of all you let people know what you have learned. I hope you didn't think I meant you.

BJM

I only have the one car so while it would be nice if I could have a non-locked license it realistically doesn't matter to me.

I am starting from square one so I need a scanner and a tuner. $270 + $380 = $650. That's more expensive for HPTuners at $500 (Scanner and Tuner together and at that price I get 2 vehicle licenses). It will be locked for a vehicle type and year which is better than being locked to a single PCM or VIN.

cam-

I'm about to get educated/frustrated/furious real soon cause I just bought an LS1 and I have NEVER tuned a thing that didn't have a carb on it I am going to need all the help I can get over the next year figuring this stuff out. I am going to leave the engine stock aside from exhaust in an effort to ease myself into this as gradual as possible but next year i want to swap cams and get it performing at a higher level so I will be watching closely for threads covering this topic. If i ask any dumbass questions along the way please understand that i am a gearhead not a computer guy so have a laugh on me and straighten me out if you can. Good to see threads like this happening though. TGO is a great forum IMO

BJM

We can help each other out hopefully. I am in the same boat. All stock 2001 SS Camaro.

cam-

Werd. No more smiley for werd?

MrDude_1

hmmm... they dont have a handle on the ECM huh?.... well no one better tell Magnus that...


hes running his own custom Speed Density program... stock internal LS1 running 10s.. lol.

hes also one of the creators of HPTuners... ( www.hptuners.com )

its a NON VIN SPECIFIC LS1 software suite... complete with flash program, bin editor, and full scanner/datalogger.

me and a couple local club guys tossed in on it... paid $101 each.


so far ive used it to take off my VATS, disable the codes for stuff i dont have, ect... changed some static stuff like speed limiters, fans, ect... nothing big yet.


but its really easy to use if you understand the motor.. everything in the ECM is cracked and known...
its not as nice and open source as the other GM ECMs, but when you can do everything for under $500 by yourself...... its a deal.

go add up your costs for ALDL cable, chip burners, bin editors, and scanning software... (yea you could make the cable, get free software and buy used burners but stay with me)
the cost is about the same.... athough you get alot more.


i wouldnt run the LS1 on a 730.... i could see you running a megasquirt, or DFI or somthign like that, but not another GM ECM.

BJM

The tuning software package guys obviously know their stuff. I am actually leaning towards HPTuners myself. Its the general community of users that seem lacking in knowledge. Its like knowing how to use Outlook but not really knowing anything about computers. I think it just needs some time.

MrDude_1

think about what you just said... then think about here.


there are a few key people that know all their ****.

there are a few more "regular guys" who know most of their stuff.

then theres the LARGE population that doesnt know too much, they can do some basic tuning, ect... but thats about it... they dont get into it as far as tweeking... just enough to make it run ok.



4thgen world is the same way.
you might not see it like that because you're not "in" the 4thgen world, but there are ALOT of guys that know their stuff.. 100s of shops around the country that tune cars... ect..

cam-

I think that applies to people in general. Most do only what needs to be done. Its only the few that do all that they can

edit: doh! spelling bad

BMmonteSS

The whole reason for me considering the 730 over the LS1 PCM is the fact that I can get the ecm, wiring harness, and sensors for half the price of the editing software for the LS1. I will still need to get the edis setup which will put me back even. The 730 is completely understood, and has great "customer support" here on the boards. I can't think of anything that megasquirt or DFI has over a GM ecm other than the ability to leave me stranded if the ecm ever crapped out.

I still don't think HPtuners pricing is fair

VCM Suite Pro
2 Vehicle Types: $499
First 2 additional vehicle types: +$199 ea.
3'rd+ additional vehicle types: +$399 ea.
Enhanced IO Interface: +$150

Tunershop Packages
All V8 Gen III Cars: $3999
All V8 Gen III Trucks: $3999
All V6 Cars: $3999
Price applies to currently listed vehicles only.
20% discount for 2 tuner packages purchased up front.
30% discount for 3 or more packages purchased up front.
Contact for more info.


Tuner cat blows these prices out of the water, even after you buy the scanning software. I'd like to think that after years and years of tuning on cars that I'd be able to open up a dyno shop, at tuner cat pricing I'd be ahead several thousand dollars. But I guess if your one particular vehicle is all your interested in then HPtuners is the way to go.

There seems to be too much money to made tuning LS1's I think this is why the info on how to tune them is scarce and the software is expensive. In a few years prices will come down, I see tuner cat being the reason for this. You gotta love capitalism.

funstick

actually otc make a good quality scan tool that can be had for relatively cheap. i think around $800 and it can be used with a palm pilot for datalogging.

-=Jeff=-

I don't see why the 730 would not work with the LS1.. Once you get the eDist working in place of the dizzy it would be a matter of the tune..

Other then the Knock sensor difference (you could just turn it offf ) would be the VE tables since the 730 table stall at 5600RPM in OEM form isn't there a hack out there to increase this?

As for the FBW TB I thought the F-Body had a cable controlled TB, or buy the one from the GM SBC RamJet intake it is the LS1 style with the IAC and TPS and is cable controlled.

After reading this post I too have considered going to an LS1 in my vette, I would need to retain the 727 ECM since the CCM would not like the LS1 PCM (without the 727 I would have a constant error from the CCM)

But I will start slow.. install the eDISt on my L98 and get that working first, once I have a handle on that I could install the LSx Motor and start tuning

MrDude_1

what dizzy? the LS1 never had a distrib... you would be better off making a custom cam ring (same teeth as a SBC distrib) then use the factory hall effect sensor....


hope so... since most people shift them in the 6000 range, and the really fast guys build them to shift 7000+


every Fbody came with a fimilar TPS, IAC and is cable controlled.

whats the CCM?

i donno, i really view that as a step backwards.
i mean going from a high power, high speed computer that takes in 10 times the sensors the earlier motors have. to somthing that.. well is pretty basic, seems like a step backwards.

dont take the word basic as "simple" or a downgrade... its just that, well the LS1 can tell the exact crank speed with enough accuracy to tell if a cyl misfires.. or if its just not putting as much power as the others.... it can tell the exact TQ going to the trans. it can do ALOT more then the earlier ECMs.. while the 730 might not tell you why your car is acting up, the LS1 PCM can say the #8 cyl is misfiring... or whatever..
add in that when you buy the motor, it comes with it, and it all plugs in.... i dont see why you wouldnt go this route.

Grumpy

It's in the code, the LS1 crank postion sensor is just a 4x unit. There's enough empty room in the 8D mask to probably include something like that, once you added a cam sensor, so you could ifentify which cylinder is acting up. For those that *need* it.
Alot of the newer diagnostics, are for helping crutch up the new car service departments. Like all professions there're the good and the bad, and with the prices of some of the warranty items, you don't want a fleet of parts swappers, running up the warranty costs.

-=Jeff=-

Sorry I was referring to the Dizzy for the 730 ECM and using the eDIST.. I just looked at my post and it was misleading, if he wanted to use the 730 with the LS1 then he would need to Get the eDIST to work in place of the Dizzy on the 730.

Also ont he F-body, I knew it was that way on the first few years, but was not sure on all.

CCM (Central Control Module) as known as a BCM (Body Control Module)

on my vette (is an 89 with 1991 electronics and dash) the CCM s the Master of the serial communications, the ABS, and ECM are slaves to the CCM. When I first put my new dash in I wanted to use the 1992 later LCD panel for the speedo, well I needed the 1992 CCM, so the car would run and drive with the 92 CCM and 91 ECM but I had a Constant 'SYS' light flashing on the dash. veyr annoying, the problem was the CCM did not see the ECM since the 92 vette had an LT1 with the obvious ECM difference. so a code was set.

Now, I totally agree that to transplant the LSx motor it would be in the best interest to use the newer PCM. I know I would lose those MPG functions that I currently have which is no big thing but the CCM will not like it. If I could incorporate the 91 ECM to make the CCM happy and use the LSx PCM to run the car, all the better.. but at that point it really is not worth it to me.

So If there was a viable solution to keep the CCM happy and transplant the LSx with PCM I am all for it..

Only otherthign would be ditching the Stock cluster for Autometer gauges and then I would not have to worry about the CCM.. But there isno good way to mount the gauges in that dash space

MrDude_1

true.

and you dont NEED it..


but damn its nice when you can figure out whats wrong quickly...(or find out somthings wrong when you didnt even know!)

computer doesnt tell you everything.. but with more input, you can come to the answer alot sooner.


in anycase, i guess im just trying to say, i see a whole lot of work to do, with little, if any, gain... and some things lost...

87_TA

The LS1's are so much like the mustangs were, in the sense there is a recipe for performance and everybody follows it right out of the book.
There is not much guess work left in the tuning department, search for what cam you put in and the VE table has already been posted.. Not saying its totally right, but the whole board follows it. Most just scale the Lower VE 3000 and below by 85%
or so - thats were your experience here will help being that you would know not to just scale half the VE nor the 90-100 KPA range.. But they do not care being that the MAF handles all WOT unless there is a failure - When that happens you will be seeing alot of blown up LS1's. They also use the Inj. constant or IRC for alot of fueling changes.
They use alot of methods that are looked down upon here , but I can't argue to much because it works, but that may also be why alot of them idle like a diesel just after a cold start.

Also the timing table is very confusing, its RPM vs MAF voltage, but the voltage does not seem linear.. So you have to data log to see where to add the timing value..

And one more thing.... Most Ed wright and other PCM's And alot that have used the predator tuning tool, will be locked and not allow editing by other software... The predator may does not lock, but I know you can't use LS1 edit after theer has been on hooked up - then Ed Kelly will charge you 100 or so to flash your PCM...

Also they are very sensitive to voltage changes while tuning - atleast with LS1 edit.. If battery voltage drops alot while linked to PCM its usually disaster...

On a good note, cant argue with performance - my brother in law just went 11.5 @ 120 in a cam only 6sd car, not counting headers, gears and such.
Can't really go wrong with heads that flow 280 out of the box.

MrDude_1

heh. funny... where do you get your info?
alot of the self tuner LS1 guys take the MAF OFF when racing... they tune the VE in, and run in speed density when they race.

oh, and you cant change the inj constant for fueling changes... hell, there ISNT a injector constant.. its a lookup table. the LS1 uses a deadheaded fuel system with a constant pressure in relation to atmospheric pressure. therefore, the "injector size" changes depending on manifold pressure.

heh, thats funny... EVERY LS1 car ive seen with a tune, idles just fine, regardless of temp.
hell, you stick any cam below a 225/225 112 and it'll learn enough to idle without a tune.... athough its smooth as stock with a tune.
it would be uncommon for them not to idle smoothly.. even with some huge cam, like a T-rex or somthing (that is another thing that bugs me about "them"... the cam naming thing....)



you should be datalogging anyway... but its pretty simple if you get into tuning them.

any of the tuning software can "lock" a PCM... most tuners dont.. talk to your tuner beforehand and see who owns the rights to your tune when finished.... this is a case by case thing... just like you can change the variable locations in a chip and make a "locked" chip.... dependant on the person, not the software..
no tuning software locks it unless you tell it to.

yea, well, you are writing into its memory.. shut it off halfway, and it only has half a program on it. just keep the voltage above 9 volts and you'll be fine... lol.

lol, yea... the slowest one in the local club is still running 12.2 - 12.1.. everyone else is in the 11s....

87_TA

I don't really understand why you are trying to flame me here???

I just brought up some issues with LS1 tuning? not putting them down just showing some of the dangers....


I also know alot of guys run VE only!!! But as stock it uses both.(period)
I have read alot of the hac and it says to me, is that it mostly uses VE for lower RPM while using MAF as a lookup or reality check. And in the High RPMs its kind of the opposite..
If I can find I will post it for you.

I have read part of the hac,

What is your point about the IRC table? So what if it references manifold pressure? you can still change the multiplier!!! which sorry If I worded it wrong by calling it Inj. constant. OOPPPPPS!

Also who ever doubted you should data log? Not me! I just said the timing table was a little difficult to understand, atleast in LS1 edit.
I just stating that in 730,165,747 ect other OBD1s you can easily make a timing change exactly where you want.

I also know that the software locks it.... what your point? They are sensitive PCMs.. sure you can lock a prom, but you can also just change a prom. My friend went through alot of trouble with this, having to send his PCM to predator when the forst one he bought predator would not link to, they sent him his back and it worked, the he purchased LS1 edit- guess what , would not work with PCM after predator was used - even after all tune was erased.. Then he sent to Ed Kelly of LS1 edit, he cleared that one
and all was good after $100.
Then not long after he had vehical in for warrenty service, they changed his PCM, guess what - had to buy another cable becasue they are PCM specific with LS1 edit. Unless you buy open version.

Alot of them do idle fine, especially once in closed loop - I was stating alot of guys I see with theirs searching for idle at the track right after start up...
Mainly because they use the LS1 recipe, scale by .85 and add 2 cups sugar. instant race car

Im sure you can stick a 224/224 and it will run OK stock, but I have never been one to settle for "OK" If you are thats fine, maybe our opinions of OK are different..
Also I don't know many LS1 racers that waste there time with little 224 anymore unless thats what TBayrn tell them to do!

Im talking more along the lines of 240/234 @ 110 reverse splits and such.


What I am stating over on the LS1 boards, they have the attitude: so and so said thei is the best way and if you don't do it you are stupid...
They also think they know everything about the LS1 code, when Itried to explain there are things about are ECM still being discovered today after 18 yrs???

MrDude_1

im not trying to flame you, just clear things up...


athough it seems like everyone posting already knows everything, so i'll just shutup now.

cam-

Not me

This thread has already been bookmarked and has only gotten more informative as it grows. Many thanks.

I would really like to upgrade the cam before the LS1 swap takes place but its the tuning that spooks me so I want to ask you guys if my fears are warranted? Is it very difficult to learn to tune without a teacher or is it something that must be shown to understand? One more thing... which tuning software would you recomend and what interface ( laptop? tuner module? ) does it require? Any info you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

87_TA

Just one case where this is a pain in the a$$, ASM had a batch of bad balancers go out - well actually hundreds...
Alot of LS1s were starting to miss and showing random miss fire codes... after searching every mechanical issue you would think would cause the problem..
Guess what it was, bad after market balancers throwing off crank sensor..... don't ask me how, but it did. When we finally traced the problem, we called ASM and they said "if you had called us first we would have told you that was it"Grrrrrr
Who would ever think your balancer would cause that, Especially not imediate after install. weird.

Mangus

Boy, I bet my college professors would have a field day with that statement. Kinda underminds what they do for a living, eh?

JP84Z430HP

I'd personally rather have someone teach me how to figure something out rather than just tell me what's wrong! I had this happen on a jeep a few weeks ago, and I've just had to deal with not knowing why it fixed it, just that it fixed it. I pretty much know why, but it's not black and white since the chrysler engine controls aren't hacked the way the GM stuff is.

funstick

depends on wether your view of hacked is accurate. some people have gotten there hands on chrysler source. but its just a romour from what i hear.

BMmonteSS

lots of good info here, good overview of the LSx tuning community and a debate of the true objective of DIY tuning.

Is the objective to tune your vehicle, or is it to discover the method yourself? I don't think it's really my place to say, but I think Grumpy gets a sense of satisfaction in watching a novice tuner go through the same steps he did when he and the others first started hacking out these ECMs. Of course he gives them hints to help them along, but leaves the journey up to them, if they want it that bad. Whether or not thats the best way to learn, I really don't know. Some times I would just rather have someone tell me, but at the same time when I finally discover something that some one has "hinted" to, I get a sense of satisfaction in knowing I did it DIY

BJM

If I can read what someone else has done it brings me up to speed much sooner. Then I can create some new ideas sooner rather than reinvent the wheel. As long as I then contribute my ideas back to the community its far more effective in terms of advancing the overall knowledge base.

Besides its not like normal research, we are all learning about something GM's designers created years ago. They have all since moved on to other things.

327_TPI_77_Maro

iTrader: (8)

Mangus, your college professors would have a field day when they saw this sentence, with "underminds" instead of undermines.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Grumpy

Not really, the first steps were extremely slow, and painful. Just figuring out some of the math and flags were difficult.

I swung wrenchs for a number of years, and got to work with some really intelligent guys. Also, went to as many manufacturer service schools, and auto tech classes that I could. I got to see alot of other mechanics, and students. What always seemed to have the best long term effect was when the student was given the tools (information) to learn, and he set out on finding his quest armed with all the logic possible. After a while you can only remember so much, at that point, if you don't have the logic to figure things out, and progress, you'll just stagnate. With practice it gets intuitive, and you have the logic skills, then it's only your imagination is the limiting factor.

The problem with alot of teachers, is that they only really teach how to reguritate data, while that's fine for some cources, it won't work when pushing the envelope.

Research is the study of the unknown. The *unknown* varies by individual. So to study someone else's work, to understand the logic, is just as much research, as working at Livermore, IMO. There's alot of cleverness, in what the guys at GM did, and are doing, IMO.

MrDude_1

that is soo true, that i donno what to say.. lol.

i feel exactly the same way.. dont teach what the answer is, teach how to find the answer.

rooster433

I was one of the beta testers to tunercats OBD2 software. I got the software sometime around auguest/sept of last year. All I can say is that John really out did himself. The program looks simular to his OBD1 tuner only organized better.. For example tables are subdivided into tranny, fuel , spark, etc.

Hes also got the definitions hacked pretty good. There are tons of tables, constants, and DTC stuff.

Whats really cool is that I got the stuff to do our 2001 Z28 and it works on everything from 1999-2002 LS1 cars (corvette, firebird, camaro). I was doing some dyno tuning the otherday and my best friend brought his dad's 02 Z06 and the software worked flawlessly and without needing to buy anthor definiton or adding anthor vin.

Our 6speed Z28 ran 8.24 12.74@110.5 with tuning, airlid, and catback only BTW..

The totally stock 2002 Z06 picked up from 340 to 357rwhp.

Once you get by the fact that anything above say 26 degress usually brings on heavy spark knock in a LS1 tuning them is a breeze.

Oh, for a scan tool just pickup a matco determinator, OTC genysis, or autoxray has some pretty good OBD1/2 handhelds for around $300 new.