MAFless in seattle(I mean st. louis)
#51
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Going back through the years, though. These guys go to the track ALOT. Nearly every weekend and hammer their cars with zero problems....so I highly doubt they are ruining much on their cars. In fact, I see where ski and corky both sold their motors 406s to their buddies that race just as frequently as they had.
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Car: 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
Engine: LS3
Transmission: 6L80E
Axle/Gears: 3.27
Also, I did find it a bit wierd how Ski had such a high dollar setup...and wouldn't buy a set of bigger injectors for an extra $300-$500...that really never did make sense...
He does go fast and did contribute to TGO...while he was here...but look at TRAXION...who has also gone fast...but with a more methodical approach.
Bottom Line: If I could buy either vehicle, I would buy TRAXION's...because it is for sure that he knows what he is doing...
He does go fast and did contribute to TGO...while he was here...but look at TRAXION...who has also gone fast...but with a more methodical approach.
Bottom Line: If I could buy either vehicle, I would buy TRAXION's...because it is for sure that he knows what he is doing...
#54
11orbust...
No I don't think from his posts on the vette forum that it needed rebuilt. Corky's buyer only replaced the crank to go to a forged unit since he too changed out the heads with Ski and corky to get some extra power. And possibly to cover himself if he ever used nitrous.
Also Not sure why or what SDI means? What would be the purpose of doing a search on that?
I did not mean to get off the topic here, thought it was important to see what some others were doing with the MAF in the intake tract yet. Since it seemed that removing it here in the this thread and many others were to elimnate the restriction it imposed. But just like the injectors, if they can work it to get mid 10s out of it, then why can't we?
The one post that did come up with the SDI search post did have ski commenting that his intent was to show that you did NOT have to spend money on conversions and larger injectors to go fast. Maybe 88406 that was your answer to why he never upgraded. seems if he wanted larger injectors, he could have done so. I don't think that money is much a barrier.
But for me if I can save 200 dollars, and get something I really need it would be very helpful. Since grumpy's link, I have been totally unable to decide if its needed yet, then these guys keep going faster and faster with all the things we say here are not good.
More I read the more confused I become....
No I don't think from his posts on the vette forum that it needed rebuilt. Corky's buyer only replaced the crank to go to a forged unit since he too changed out the heads with Ski and corky to get some extra power. And possibly to cover himself if he ever used nitrous.
Also Not sure why or what SDI means? What would be the purpose of doing a search on that?
I did not mean to get off the topic here, thought it was important to see what some others were doing with the MAF in the intake tract yet. Since it seemed that removing it here in the this thread and many others were to elimnate the restriction it imposed. But just like the injectors, if they can work it to get mid 10s out of it, then why can't we?
The one post that did come up with the SDI search post did have ski commenting that his intent was to show that you did NOT have to spend money on conversions and larger injectors to go fast. Maybe 88406 that was your answer to why he never upgraded. seems if he wanted larger injectors, he could have done so. I don't think that money is much a barrier.
But for me if I can save 200 dollars, and get something I really need it would be very helpful. Since grumpy's link, I have been totally unable to decide if its needed yet, then these guys keep going faster and faster with all the things we say here are not good.
More I read the more confused I become....
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did somebody call ghost busters?.......
Back on topic!
could someone answer this..
And how whould I go about modifying the table. I was also thinking about jacking the tps to 1.0volts and see what happens. I'll switch to SD within a couple of weeks. Right now I'm just having fun and learning alot.
Back on topic!
could someone answer this..
Why the gr/sec column doesn't display gr/sec. It look like TPS voltage?
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Car: 89 Irocz
Engine: 350TPI $6E
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by RBob
airflow = LC217[RPM] * min(TPS%, LC213) + (IAC * LC214) + LC215
airflow = LC217[RPM] * min(TPS%, LC213) + (IAC * LC214) + LC215
is this value in one or two bytes?
min(TPS%, LC213) .. do you mean the TPS% is found at the LC213 location? or is this a compare function to the value in LC213?
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by TPIgirl
LC217 = location where value is stored for RPM?
is this value in one or two bytes?
min(TPS%, LC213) .. do you mean the TPS% is found at the LC213 location? or is this a compare function to the value in LC213?
LC217 = location where value is stored for RPM?
is this value in one or two bytes?
min(TPS%, LC213) .. do you mean the TPS% is found at the LC213 location? or is this a compare function to the value in LC213?
The min(TPS%, LC213) means that the code will use either the TPS value, or the value at bin location LC213, whichever is smaller. It is a compare to find the lessor of the two values: the current TPS, or the value at bin location LC213.
The lessor of the two values is then used in the calculation.
This actually makes sense because of how a throttle body passes air. GM implemented the default equation to prevent over-flowing due to high TPS values. By the time a TB is 65% open in angular motion (which is what the TPS reports), the magnitude of possible airflow is near maximum.
RBob.
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Car: 89 Irocz
Engine: 350TPI $6E
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by RBob
airflow = LC217[RPM] * min(TPS%, LC213) + (IAC * LC214) + LC215
Okay, now where (location) does it get the value of TPS% in order to do the compare?
Thank you so far!
It does seem like you could make adjustments to this default fueling by just adjusting the TPS sensor so the input values get changed.
If you were going to make some adjustments in this default table which locations would you go for? gps?
airflow = LC217[RPM] * min(TPS%, LC213) + (IAC * LC214) + LC215
Okay, now where (location) does it get the value of TPS% in order to do the compare?
Thank you so far!
It does seem like you could make adjustments to this default fueling by just adjusting the TPS sensor so the input values get changed.
If you were going to make some adjustments in this default table which locations would you go for? gps?
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Engine: check
Transmission: check
The TPS% value is stored in RAM, it is the TPS sensor value zero'd from idle and scaled. If at 5.1% TPS then 5.1 / .390 = 13. The 13 will be what is used in the calculation.
For both 11's and TPIgirl, I wouldn't mess with the physical setting of the TPS sensor. It auto zero's and, if it is adjusted too far and a TPS code gets tripped. . . Now the ECM is down another sensor.
So what to adjust: (note that I am going to use the cal locations from BUA, please change them if using $6E, both are posted above).
How the terms are used can be seen in the equation. The offset at LC215 is used to compensate for the throttle blade opening airflow from the idle screw setting. If the idle screw setting is changed it will change the airflow and the offset term will need to be changed.
The term at LC214 compensates for the IAC opening. If the IAC pintle shape and/or the opening is modified then that term will need to be changed.
The term at LC213 clips the TPS multiplier once past a set throttle opening. When to change this? Maybe with a larger TB? Dunno.
This leaves the airflow vs RPM/TPS table at LC217.
Easiest way to adjust this table would be from actual MAF data. If no MAF then by the BLM method as is done with the scalar tables. No real difference between them.
RBob.
For both 11's and TPIgirl, I wouldn't mess with the physical setting of the TPS sensor. It auto zero's and, if it is adjusted too far and a TPS code gets tripped. . . Now the ECM is down another sensor.
So what to adjust: (note that I am going to use the cal locations from BUA, please change them if using $6E, both are posted above).
How the terms are used can be seen in the equation. The offset at LC215 is used to compensate for the throttle blade opening airflow from the idle screw setting. If the idle screw setting is changed it will change the airflow and the offset term will need to be changed.
The term at LC214 compensates for the IAC opening. If the IAC pintle shape and/or the opening is modified then that term will need to be changed.
The term at LC213 clips the TPS multiplier once past a set throttle opening. When to change this? Maybe with a larger TB? Dunno.
This leaves the airflow vs RPM/TPS table at LC217.
Easiest way to adjust this table would be from actual MAF data. If no MAF then by the BLM method as is done with the scalar tables. No real difference between them.
RBob.
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Transmission: check
Originally posted by 11sORbust
What about the maf diag error. What do you think happens when that switch is turned off? My car didn't run hardly at all with that disabled.....
What about the maf diag error. What do you think happens when that switch is turned off? My car didn't run hardly at all with that disabled.....
RBob.
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That's what I'm thinking. Wonder if I can try to adjust bpw vs load with maf diag turned off. It seemed like there was no load calculation though.
The reason I thought to jack the tps was to "match" the resolution of the code. Maybe 4 volts is too wide of range. The tps diag can be turned off.
On a sidenote the cold starting is good. IAC works fine. I do have to pump the gas a few times while cranking(only on first start of the day if below 60*f). I have not tried to change anything in the chip. Just taking notes at this point.
The reason I thought to jack the tps was to "match" the resolution of the code. Maybe 4 volts is too wide of range. The tps diag can be turned off.
On a sidenote the cold starting is good. IAC works fine. I do have to pump the gas a few times while cranking(only on first start of the day if below 60*f). I have not tried to change anything in the chip. Just taking notes at this point.
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I just though of something else to do. Disable maf diagnostic and use the bad maf. It might just have a flat spot or the lower voltage might get hairy. Maybe it's possible to tune around the problem, just for fun.
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Car: 89 Irocz
Engine: 350TPI $6E
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by 11sORbust
I just though of something else to do. Disable maf diagnostic and use the bad maf. It might just have a flat spot or the lower voltage might get hairy. Maybe it's possible to tune around the problem, just for fun.
I just though of something else to do. Disable maf diagnostic and use the bad maf. It might just have a flat spot or the lower voltage might get hairy. Maybe it's possible to tune around the problem, just for fun.
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It just depends on what is wrong with the maf. Grounded signal wire, forget it. If there is a flat spot or something like that then it might work. That's only with the maf in the intake tract. Otherwise the lv8 will be off big time...
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I changed my mind. The car runs very, very well(after I fixed some stuff). So it's going to stay mafless untill the 305 dies. Or untill I install an ls1. There is flat spots in the cal. Very minor though. I have raced those 215hp 4.6l mustangs and the old t/a has won a few times. It'll go 100mph with no problem. Gas mileage is not the best. But since I'm in closed loop then maybe highway mode will work,hmmm.
Guess I need to get that tps/rpm default table addded to my tdf. Something else I need to learn how to do...
I have logged about 20000 miles on it mafless
Guess I need to get that tps/rpm default table addded to my tdf. Something else I need to learn how to do...
I have logged about 20000 miles on it mafless
Last edited by 11sORbust; 04-28-2004 at 07:06 PM.
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I guess I'm failing to see the point in yanking sensors one by one and trying to get the car to run 'close' to right without them.
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Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: SFI'd 350
Transmission: TKO 500
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt w/ 3.23's
Originally posted by madmax
You could drive the car without the TPS (instead of without the MAF) too, but why? I guess I'm failing to see the point in yanking sensors one by one and trying to get the car to run 'close' to right without them.
You could drive the car without the TPS (instead of without the MAF) too, but why? I guess I'm failing to see the point in yanking sensors one by one and trying to get the car to run 'close' to right without them.
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Car: 91 Red Sled
Axle/Gears: 10bolt Richmond 3.73 Torsen
Originally posted by madmax
Well you must have had some idea in your head for removing it and seeing what happens. Just for the hell of it?
Well you must have had some idea in your head for removing it and seeing what happens. Just for the hell of it?
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The maf was bad when I bought the car. I initally planned on swapping to sd. Cost of SD conversion is about $100 less than a new sensor. Once I fixed the mechanical problems the car ran good. Then the f/p regulator went south and dumping fuel into intake. Ran like that for a few months(ecm still was controlling a/f ratio very well). Fixed that recently and the car runs great. So I started to wonder why it is running so good. Jumped into the code and it looks like I can tweek thing to run even better. So why should I run a maf if it's doing so good. This is a bone stock '86 t/a 305 tpi. I'm sure the default tables wouldn't work so good on a modified setup(mabe can tweek em to though). The car has 190,000 miles now. Never rebuilt. Great oil pressure. No detonation. Coolant temp is always at 180-190, never over that.
Sometime I just do things to learn .......
Sometime I just do things to learn .......
#74
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back from the dead.......
Figure it's about time I learn how to add tables. I plan on using the tunercat tdf editor. Maybe you can help me with this. I don't need someone to hand out stuff to me. I'm wanting to learn how to add tables. Enough BS, I'll tell you what I think I know...
This is the table I want to add.
Figure it's about time I learn how to add tables. I plan on using the tunercat tdf editor. Maybe you can help me with this. I don't need someone to hand out stuff to me. I'm wanting to learn how to add tables. Enough BS, I'll tell you what I think I know...
This is the table I want to add.
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This is what I have so far in the editor........
I think the y/x axis form # is the location of tps and rpm(in the ram). Is that even close?
Like my label?
I think the y/x axis form # is the location of tps and rpm(in the ram). Is that even close?
Like my label?
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on a sidenote,
;--------------------------------------------------
; LK UP Default air flow offset per pct TPS vs RPM
; P/O ERR 33/34
;
; Value = Gms/Sec * 100 pct, (Offset)
;
; TBL = Arg * 100
;-------------------------------------------------
LF7C1: LDAA L0056 ; RPM/25
LDX #$C217 ; Default air flow offset TBL
JSR LF2BF ; 2d Lk Up Routine
LDAB LC213 ; If TPS > 65.2%, use for MAF Default
CMPB L0082 ; TPS Ld Axis Var
BCS LF7D2 ; BR IF TPS LT THRESH
; ... else
LDAB L0082 ;
LF7D2: MUL ;
STD L00EA ; Gms/Sec Disp Value
;--------------------------------------------------
LDAA L002C ; IAC Present Posit
LDAB LC214 ; Gms/sec Scale factor
MUL ;
ADDD L00EA ; Gms/Sec Disp Value
BCS LF7E4 ;
; ... else
ADDD LC215 ; 4 Gms/Sec default air flow offset
BCC LF7E7 ;
LF7E4: LDD #$FFFF ; Max Val if Overflow
LF7E7: JMP LF86E ;
;--------------------------------------------------
How does that work with the table I'm wanting to add? (or at least) why was it in a different location?
Thanks for any help.
Tim
;--------------------------------------------------
; LK UP Default air flow offset per pct TPS vs RPM
; P/O ERR 33/34
;
; Value = Gms/Sec * 100 pct, (Offset)
;
; TBL = Arg * 100
;-------------------------------------------------
LF7C1: LDAA L0056 ; RPM/25
LDX #$C217 ; Default air flow offset TBL
JSR LF2BF ; 2d Lk Up Routine
LDAB LC213 ; If TPS > 65.2%, use for MAF Default
CMPB L0082 ; TPS Ld Axis Var
BCS LF7D2 ; BR IF TPS LT THRESH
; ... else
LDAB L0082 ;
LF7D2: MUL ;
STD L00EA ; Gms/Sec Disp Value
;--------------------------------------------------
LDAA L002C ; IAC Present Posit
LDAB LC214 ; Gms/sec Scale factor
MUL ;
ADDD L00EA ; Gms/Sec Disp Value
BCS LF7E4 ;
; ... else
ADDD LC215 ; 4 Gms/Sec default air flow offset
BCC LF7E7 ;
LF7E4: LDD #$FFFF ; Max Val if Overflow
LF7E7: JMP LF86E ;
;--------------------------------------------------
How does that work with the table I'm wanting to add? (or at least) why was it in a different location?
Thanks for any help.
Tim
Last edited by 11sORbust; 06-14-2004 at 11:42 AM.
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Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally posted by 11sORbust
look right?
look right?
Last edited by Grumpy; 06-18-2004 at 08:27 AM.
#81
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So your using a default MAF table at over 62% TPS?.
LDAB LC213 ; If TPS > 65.2%, use for MAF Default
Is that what you are talking about?
Last edited by 11sORbust; 06-18-2004 at 08:46 AM.
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Do need a little work on the title of the table though. . .
It was kind of funny bacause the first gr/sec value was 8 no matter what I did. Then I realized to use the actual start of table.
Last edited by 11sORbust; 06-18-2004 at 08:45 AM.
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by 11sORbust
What do you mean??? Rbob told me that the table is the only default table for fuel calc. So you are suggesting there is another table getting used <62%tps ?
LDAB LC213 ; If TPS > 65.2%, use for MAF Default
Is that what you are talking about?
What do you mean??? Rbob told me that the table is the only default table for fuel calc. So you are suggesting there is another table getting used <62%tps ?
LDAB LC213 ; If TPS > 65.2%, use for MAF Default
Is that what you are talking about?
The comment on this line: BCS LF7D2 ; BR IF TPS LT THRESH
. . . is incorrect. It will BRA if the TPS% value is greater then the value at LC213.
RBob.
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Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: SFI'd 350
Transmission: TKO 500
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt w/ 3.23's
BR/BRA is short for branch. Since the value in accumulator B is being compaired to the TPS% (or whatever is stored at that ram location), a bra will only occur if the TPS% is greater then the value in accumulator B.
EDIT: server cut my origional post off...
EDIT: server cut my origional post off...
Last edited by dimented24x7; 06-21-2004 at 03:09 AM.
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BR/BRA is short for branch. Since the value in accumulator B is being compaired to the TPS% (or whatever is stored at that ram location), a bra will only occur if the TPS% is greater then the value in accumulator B.
EDIT: server cut my origional post off...
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wHEN YOU GO wot, WOULDN'T THAT FLOOD THE MOTOR OUT?
iF YOU CAN TUNE FOR IT, WHAT KIND OF BENIFITS DO YOU THINK YOU'LL SEE?
EDIT: sorry for the caps, I was watching TV while typing
iF YOU CAN TUNE FOR IT, WHAT KIND OF BENIFITS DO YOU THINK YOU'LL SEE?
EDIT: sorry for the caps, I was watching TV while typing
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Car: 84 Z28
Engine: 355 (fastburn heads, LT4 HOT cam)
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt, 3.27
I've finally taken the time to read MOST of this post, and it is interesting to say the least. The one question I have is does it run any better than with the MAF operational? I ask because you stated that the MAF was bad when you got the car. I'm not guessing either way, it would just be interesting to know. Maybe all that you're doing would make things better if adding the MAF back into the loop? Go ahead and scream at me!!!
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one question I have is does it run any better than with the MAF operational?
For some reason I think it's possible to tune mafless to run on par w/ maf. Most people think it's a waste of time
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Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: SFI'd 350
Transmission: TKO 500
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt w/ 3.23's
Originally posted by 11sORbust
I'm going to piggyback the tps signal wire to the maf input wire(to ecm). Then try to tune the maf tables. If anyone is interested....
I'm going to piggyback the tps signal wire to the maf input wire(to ecm). Then try to tune the maf tables. If anyone is interested....
A cleaner way to do it would be to do things more directly in terms of the tps, but that, among other things, requires that you know assembly.
Last edited by dimented24x7; 06-25-2004 at 02:08 AM.
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Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: SFI'd 350
Transmission: TKO 500
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt w/ 3.23's
Originally posted by 11sORbust
For some reason I think it's possible to tune mafless to run on par w/ maf. Most people think it's a waste of time
For some reason I think it's possible to tune mafless to run on par w/ maf. Most people think it's a waste of time
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I was thinking about using the bpw vs load table($32).But I'm not sure yet. The main thing about using the tps would be that I have to rescale the load...
thoughts?
thoughts?
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