Why, I rant about source code and resolution
02-26-2004, 07:51 PM
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Why, I rant about source code and resolution
I've been accused of all kinds of things in reference to why I constantly harp about source code, and resolution.
Well folks, here's the final product of what happens when you have a big cam, for a given amount of displacement. While 214/214 at .050 is not even warm for a 305, on a 231 (OK, was a 231), dial up the lift to +.5 (actual number classified), and you wind up with an idle in the 65-70 K/Pa range. Toss in using 60 PHH injectors, and you might wind up with a night mare.
Where in fact this setup runs like a watch, makes lots of boost and moves right along
Main Spark
Entries in dec, and need multiplied by .3 to approx degrees.
Map20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95100 Rpm:
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 57 1000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 1200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 78 68 63 57 57 1400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 84 68 63 63 63 1600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 68 63 63 1800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 63 63 63 2000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 63 63 2200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4800
MAIN VE
Map 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 68 75 90 115 150 190 190 ; 1000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 72 81 95 130 160 180 180 ; 1200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 78 86 100 145 165 175 180 ; 1400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 82 96 105 145 165 185 185 ; 1600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 89 100 105 155 170 185 185 ; 1800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 94 105 110 160 185 190 195 ; 2000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 101 110 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 100 115 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 105 110 120 165 190 195 200 ; 2800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 130 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 133 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 170 185 190 195 ; 4000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4800
While it might look like a waste of table space at the lower loads, that's fine, since if I change cams or play some other games, I have the resolution to do that.
And for anyone that says SD is that much more difficult then MAF, well, you can believe what you want, but with a WB and some experience there's little to no difference in getting the tune right, at least in my experience. There's some areas in the MAP that I'll never see, and those were worked out on the ecm bench, and in this case is about 1/2 the entries.
Not to mention some of the other lil dodads to compensate for things like lots of boost, water injection, etc, etc.
Well folks, here's the final product of what happens when you have a big cam, for a given amount of displacement. While 214/214 at .050 is not even warm for a 305, on a 231 (OK, was a 231), dial up the lift to +.5 (actual number classified), and you wind up with an idle in the 65-70 K/Pa range. Toss in using 60 PHH injectors, and you might wind up with a night mare.
Where in fact this setup runs like a watch, makes lots of boost and moves right along
Main Spark
Entries in dec, and need multiplied by .3 to approx degrees.
Map20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95100 Rpm:
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 57 1000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 1200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 78 68 63 57 57 1400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 84 68 63 63 63 1600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 68 63 63 1800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 63 63 63 2000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 63 63 2200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4800
MAIN VE
Map 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 68 75 90 115 150 190 190 ; 1000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 72 81 95 130 160 180 180 ; 1200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 78 86 100 145 165 175 180 ; 1400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 82 96 105 145 165 185 185 ; 1600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 89 100 105 155 170 185 185 ; 1800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 94 105 110 160 185 190 195 ; 2000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 101 110 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 100 115 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 105 110 120 165 190 195 200 ; 2800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 130 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 133 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 170 185 190 195 ; 4000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4800
While it might look like a waste of table space at the lower loads, that's fine, since if I change cams or play some other games, I have the resolution to do that.
And for anyone that says SD is that much more difficult then MAF, well, you can believe what you want, but with a WB and some experience there's little to no difference in getting the tune right, at least in my experience. There's some areas in the MAP that I'll never see, and those were worked out on the ecm bench, and in this case is about 1/2 the entries.
Not to mention some of the other lil dodads to compensate for things like lots of boost, water injection, etc, etc.
03-03-2004, 02:42 PM
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ok.. with that said.....
can i run a two bar map on a 1 bar setup and just modifiy the tables to make up for it and run boost?
can i run a two bar map on a 1 bar setup and just modifiy the tables to make up for it and run boost?
03-03-2004, 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by MrDude_1
can i run a two bar map on a 1 bar setup and just modifiy the tables to make up for it and run boost?
can i run a two bar map on a 1 bar setup and just modifiy the tables to make up for it and run boost?
You'll cut the resolution in 1/2.
If you modify ALL the stables, swithces and settings, then you might get away with it.
If you look at the tables I posted, and then imagine that they were 10 K/Pa increments to begin with, then those increments would be 20 K/Pa. That's hardly more then having an on/off switch for fueling.
03-03-2004, 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Grumpy
In a half hearted way.
You'll cut the resolution in 1/2.
If you modify ALL the stables, swithces and settings, then you might get away with it.
If you look at the tables I posted, and then imagine that they were 10 K/Pa increments to begin with, then those increments would be 20 K/Pa. That's hardly more then having an on/off switch for fueling.
In a half hearted way.
You'll cut the resolution in 1/2.
If you modify ALL the stables, swithces and settings, then you might get away with it.
If you look at the tables I posted, and then imagine that they were 10 K/Pa increments to begin with, then those increments would be 20 K/Pa. That's hardly more then having an on/off switch for fueling.
)
03-03-2004, 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by funstick
Cause your nutty like the rest of us.
Cause your nutty like the rest of us.
RBob.
03-03-2004, 10:42 PM
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Why, I rant about source code and resolution
Now, please don't flog me over this post!
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03-04-2004, 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by JP84Z430HP
I have what I think is a valid question in this area. How much resolution is enough? When do you get to the point that too much resolution just gets in the way? Does it ever? I'm asking because I really have no idea. Where I understand needing more resolution that is available in the OE code, I just don't know how far out it would be worth taking it. Also, how about more resolution on the RPM's? Wouldn't 200 intervals be better?
Now, please don't flog me over this post!
I have what I think is a valid question in this area. How much resolution is enough? When do you get to the point that too much resolution just gets in the way? Does it ever? I'm asking because I really have no idea. Where I understand needing more resolution that is available in the OE code, I just don't know how far out it would be worth taking it. Also, how about more resolution on the RPM's? Wouldn't 200 intervals be better?
Now, please don't flog me over this post!
If you have a car the idles at 40 K/Pa, and will run to 95 K/Pa then you might be happy with 10 K/Pa increments. But, if you looking for gas mileage, then you want the resolution so as not to be wasting gas, in your normal load areas. If your running closed loop, we your limited to what AFR you'll be running at, but timing isn't closed loop, and there is a fair amoung of MPG that can be found in having the timing correct.
On the other hand if you have a car that idles at 70-75 K/Pa, cruises at 80 K/Pa, and is an open loop application, then you need the resolution to give the car the manners to make it fun to drive. Drive enough cars with aftermarket ecms, with really poor resolution, and you feel like you have a toggle switch for the gas pedal, it becomes all on or off. For me, that just takes all the fun out it. Though some think that's just peachy.
Now, consider yourself flogged......
03-04-2004, 08:27 AM
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I'm with nutty 
More resolution is better. In the past I had the same question as you did JP84Z430HP, would more resolution just make it more difficult to get the tune correct? As it ends up more is better. One of the things I did was to check the $8D mask as used on the TPI engines. There are two VE tables used where the second picks up the RPM scale as the first table ends.
The first table uses increments of 100 RPM. At 1600 RPM (where the firsdt table ends) the second table then uses increments of 400 RPM.
Even the MAP resolution: the first table goes from 20 KPa to 60 KPa every 5 KPa, then from 60 to 100 Kpa every 10 KPa.
The second table uses every 10 KPa (20-100).
What this does is give better low speed drivability. The SA tables are along the same lines. At low RPMs the increment is 200 RPM, switching to an increment of 400 RPM at 2400 RPM.
In the end I created the tables with as much resolution as I reasonably could. 17x17 tables instead of 13x14 tables. Then just went with it.
RBob.
More resolution is better. In the past I had the same question as you did JP84Z430HP, would more resolution just make it more difficult to get the tune correct? As it ends up more is better. One of the things I did was to check the $8D mask as used on the TPI engines. There are two VE tables used where the second picks up the RPM scale as the first table ends.The first table uses increments of 100 RPM. At 1600 RPM (where the firsdt table ends) the second table then uses increments of 400 RPM.
Even the MAP resolution: the first table goes from 20 KPa to 60 KPa every 5 KPa, then from 60 to 100 Kpa every 10 KPa.
The second table uses every 10 KPa (20-100).
What this does is give better low speed drivability. The SA tables are along the same lines. At low RPMs the increment is 200 RPM, switching to an increment of 400 RPM at 2400 RPM.
In the end I created the tables with as much resolution as I reasonably could. 17x17 tables instead of 13x14 tables. Then just went with it.
RBob.
03-04-2004, 08:42 PM
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Makes sense, and I knew that more is better in this case, just wanted some of the theory behind why. You guys put it as plain and clear as it can be! Thanks!
03-04-2004, 11:19 PM
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grumpy is right. it realy depends on the application on this one. i think 13x 13 is the minimum for data points and 17x17 is the maximum. beyond 17x17 is just getting senseless. but if you need mroe to help refine the tune the getting is that way you want i ideal. In thoery there shoud be a VE table for every specific function in my eyes. a 2d table for WOT a 3d table for idle a 3d table for cruise a 3d table for high load. This way you can really tell the ecm what you want it to do. but hold on Gm already did that. duh silly me
03-05-2004, 10:57 AM
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Re: Why, I rant about source code and resolution
Originally posted by Grumpy
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 57 1000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 1200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 78 68 63 57 57 1400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 84 68 63 63 63 1600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 68 63 63 1800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 63 63 63 2000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 63 63 2200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4800
MAIN VE
Map 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 68 75 90 115 150 190 190 ; 1000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 72 81 95 130 160 180 180 ; 1200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 78 86 100 145 165 175 180 ; 1400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 82 96 105 145 165 185 185 ; 1600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 89 100 105 155 170 185 185 ; 1800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 94 105 110 160 185 190 195 ; 2000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 101 110 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 100 115 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 105 110 120 165 190 195 200 ; 2800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 130 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 133 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 170 185 190 195 ; 4000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 68 68 68 68 57 57 57 800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 57 1000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 74 74 68 63 63 57 57 1200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 78 68 63 57 57 1400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 84 84 84 68 63 63 63 1600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 68 63 63 1800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 63 63 63 2000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 63 63 2200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 2800
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3200
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 3600
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4000
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4400
FCB 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 68 86 86 86 74 74 74 74 4800
MAIN VE
Map 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 60 60 65 90 110 190 240 240 ; 800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 68 75 90 115 150 190 190 ; 1000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 72 81 95 130 160 180 180 ; 1200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 78 86 100 145 165 175 180 ; 1400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 82 96 105 145 165 185 185 ; 1600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 89 100 105 155 170 185 185 ; 1800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 94 105 110 160 185 190 195 ; 2000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 101 110 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 100 115 115 155 185 195 195 ; 2400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 105 110 120 165 190 195 200 ; 2800
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 130 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3200
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 133 135 155 175 180 195 200 ; 3600
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 170 185 190 195 ; 4000
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4400
FCB 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 36 125 140 160 180 185 190 195 ; 4800
03-05-2004, 11:03 AM
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Re: Re: Why, I rant about source code and resolution
Originally posted by N8MAN1068
I see a hot blonde over there....oh wait! here comes a red head!
I see a hot blonde over there....oh wait! here comes a red head!
yea yea yea.. the matrix.
<font color="#00FF00">The matrix has you.</font>
<font color="#00FF00">There is no Spohn.</font>
03-15-2004, 08:54 AM
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Turns out there was a slight comedy of errors with vacuum leaks, and now the engine idles at 45-50 K/Pa. So the tables are much more populated.
And it took a while to understand some of what was going on, ie, having a 70mm butterfly, vs the stock 58, and the effects of that on the VE table, and relationships with AE/PE.
Not to mention some further refinements, but there ain't nothing, nowhere, that approaches getting the code taylored to your specific application, and the optimizing the tune.
Just the little details, like a spark correction for VSS, and fuel enrichment for time in PE, are just incredible little tweaks that just make the tune all so much better.
Not to mention the AE RPM step corrections. Wow, does that ever make a difference, in my car. I can pretty much dial in the AE to maintain a constant AFR, as the engine transistions into PE, and while that at a glance might not seem like much, it just makes the car that much more manageble. No big momentary richness, as the AE or PE kicks in, just a pin you in the seat, and go sensation.
And with the right code, and tune, the IAC can be one of your best friends.
And it took a while to understand some of what was going on, ie, having a 70mm butterfly, vs the stock 58, and the effects of that on the VE table, and relationships with AE/PE.
Not to mention some further refinements, but there ain't nothing, nowhere, that approaches getting the code taylored to your specific application, and the optimizing the tune.
Just the little details, like a spark correction for VSS, and fuel enrichment for time in PE, are just incredible little tweaks that just make the tune all so much better.
Not to mention the AE RPM step corrections. Wow, does that ever make a difference, in my car. I can pretty much dial in the AE to maintain a constant AFR, as the engine transistions into PE, and while that at a glance might not seem like much, it just makes the car that much more manageble. No big momentary richness, as the AE or PE kicks in, just a pin you in the seat, and go sensation.
And with the right code, and tune, the IAC can be one of your best friends.
03-15-2004, 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Grumpy
Turns out there was a slight comedy of errors with vacuum leaks, and now the engine idles at 45-50 K/Pa. So the tables are much more populated.
Turns out there was a slight comedy of errors with vacuum leaks, and now the engine idles at 45-50 K/Pa. So the tables are much more populated.
And it took a while to understand some of what was going on, ie, having a 70mm butterfly, vs the stock 58, and the effects of that on the VE table, and relationships with AE/PE.
Not to mention some further refinements, but there ain't nothing, nowhere, that approaches getting the code taylored to your specific application, and the optimizing the tune.
Just the little details, like a spark correction for VSS, and fuel enrichment for time in PE, are just incredible little tweaks that just make the tune all so much better.
. That fuel enrichment for time in PE sounds very interesting. Wet walls don't need to be rewet when at high but not full throttle... hmm... Not to mention the AE RPM step corrections. Wow, does that ever make a difference, in my car. I can pretty much dial in the AE to maintain a constant AFR, as the engine transistions into PE, and while that at a glance might not seem like much, it just makes the car that much more manageble. No big momentary richness, as the AE or PE kicks in, just a pin you in the seat, and go sensation.
And with the right code, and tune, the IAC can be one of your best friends.
I found that the IAC is great if you remove all of it's purposes related to emissions. It's good for idle... so I believe IAC should stand for "idle" air control
, oh wait, it is! Last edited by JPrevost; 03-15-2004 at 03:40 PM.
03-15-2004, 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by JPrevost
Don't you just hate it when there is a mechanical problem and you've already tried to tune it out with the code! GM should put me in charge of tuning backup routines for bad fuel pumps, vacuum leaks, bad gas, bad spark plug wires, wrong heat range spark plugs, and overheating. lol
What conclusions have you come too about the larger TB?
I need to patch this because I'm constantly seeing a couple knock counts in 3rd gear high load, vss around 65mph. Reduction in SA by only 2 degrees is noticable in 2nd gear . That fuel enrichment for time in PE sounds very interesting. Wet walls don't need to be rewet when at high but not full throttle... hmm...
I haven't been able to get rid of my 1/3 of a sec lean blip when opening the throttle. I think I've run into the limits of the wetflow.
I found that the IAC is great if you remove all of it's purposes related to emissions. It's good for idle... so I believe IAC should stand for "idle" air control , oh wait, it is!
Don't you just hate it when there is a mechanical problem and you've already tried to tune it out with the code! GM should put me in charge of tuning backup routines for bad fuel pumps, vacuum leaks, bad gas, bad spark plug wires, wrong heat range spark plugs, and overheating. lol
What conclusions have you come too about the larger TB?
I need to patch this because I'm constantly seeing a couple knock counts in 3rd gear high load, vss around 65mph. Reduction in SA by only 2 degrees is noticable in 2nd gear
. That fuel enrichment for time in PE sounds very interesting. Wet walls don't need to be rewet when at high but not full throttle... hmm...I haven't been able to get rid of my 1/3 of a sec lean blip when opening the throttle. I think I've run into the limits of the wetflow.
I found that the IAC is great if you remove all of it's purposes related to emissions. It's good for idle... so I believe IAC should stand for "idle" air control
, oh wait, it is! If you were to swing by say the first weekend in Jun, I could splain it to you in person, hint, hint.
For me, the large TB is in part a variable displacement plenum strategy.
You might cover that with a slightly rich spot in the VE table. I'm wondering how many of the large TB guys are covering that. I'd about guess, they're running alot more AE then they need to cover for it instead of realising how drastic the K/Pa change can be. I can get to over 70 K/Pa at 1,200 on a throttle snap. Luckily with the turbo, I immediately there after can be in boost if in any real load.
Having a proper Throttle Follwer, when doing burn outs can be a real good thing. Stalling coming out of the bleach box, looks to be a PITB....
Not that I've ever done that, or had a hard to find vac leak....
03-16-2004, 07:51 PM
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lol i was joking.. you were just talking about how great resolution was, and im talking about severely reducing it...
The issue, as grumpy said, is all the other hidden things in $8d you may have to change.
I know you were kidding, but I wanted to speak up anyway.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. $8d with 2 map sensors would be the best route. After 100kpa, it switches to the other map sensor for timing retard table, and BPW adder for boost.
Problem is, noone, including me has enough time to do it. If this stuff was written in C, it would take a half hour.
-- Joe
03-16-2004, 08:47 PM
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Car: 84 Z28
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Originally posted by anesthes
I've said it before, I'll say it again. $8d with 2 map sensors would be the best route. After 100kpa, it switches to the other map sensor for timing retard table, and BPW adder for boost.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. $8d with 2 map sensors would be the best route. After 100kpa, it switches to the other map sensor for timing retard table, and BPW adder for boost.
A project we're doing at work is a 98 Neon R/T getting a 2003 SRT-4 engine swap. It seems the SRT-4 computer uses 2 sensors, one before the throttle but after the turbo, and one in the intake manifold. I was just thinking about this very thing when I noticed them being that way. It appears they are doing exactly what anesthes is talking about. Too bad I can't easily get into the SRT-4 computer to see what's going on inside it!
03-16-2004, 08:59 PM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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I've brought this up before. But everyones like "Just use $58 in a '749", which I did. But there are some nice things about $8D..
-- Joe
-- Joe
03-16-2004, 09:07 PM
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If it was something I needed, I would try to figure out how to do, or at least start asking about how to do it, but I'm probably going to be N/A for quite a long time at the rate my funds roll in! LOL
I would like to do a turbo, or a S/C one day, maybe not even on the camaro. I have a friend that is planning to put a turbo on a honda, and I keep telling him how nice it would be with a GM efi system! Maybe if I can get him to bite, I can take the initiative to at least gather the info as to how to do it.
I would like to do a turbo, or a S/C one day, maybe not even on the camaro. I have a friend that is planning to put a turbo on a honda, and I keep telling him how nice it would be with a GM efi system!
Maybe if I can get him to bite, I can take the initiative to at least gather the info as to how to do it.
04-09-2004, 09:55 PM
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I'm going back to $8d in the morning to get some solid part throttle stuff done. $58 isn't driveable on mine. Might even be ve resolution.
Perhaps a BPW adder table on $8d will be the resolve?
-- Joe
Perhaps a BPW adder table on $8d will be the resolve?
-- Joe
04-10-2004, 06:16 AM
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Originally posted by anesthes
I'm going back to $8d in the morning to get some solid part throttle stuff done. $58 isn't driveable on mine. Might even be ve resolution.
Perhaps a BPW adder table on $8d will be the resolve?
I'm going back to $8d in the morning to get some solid part throttle stuff done. $58 isn't driveable on mine. Might even be ve resolution.
Perhaps a BPW adder table on $8d will be the resolve?
Email me a copy of the best running .bin you've got. What not drivible about it?.
04-10-2004, 10:31 AM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Bruce,
I don't have a "best running" bin right now.
The problem is the bucking. Its so bad at part throttle. Accel is fine, decel can be ok at times. But part throttle cruise is soo bad its gonna break the tranny or ring gear for sure.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/7...ns/JOE-v15.bin
Is the bin I've been working on. I'm trying a new $58 this morning to see if it makes a difference.
I could give you my old $8d bin, but I dunno how it would even run on my new setup. Bigger blower, new injectors, different rail pressure, new exhaust, intake porting. Ve and all is completly different.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/749-scans/old-8d.bin
-- Joe
I don't have a "best running" bin right now.
The problem is the bucking. Its so bad at part throttle. Accel is fine, decel can be ok at times. But part throttle cruise is soo bad its gonna break the tranny or ring gear for sure.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/7...ns/JOE-v15.bin
Is the bin I've been working on. I'm trying a new $58 this morning to see if it makes a difference.
I could give you my old $8d bin, but I dunno how it would even run on my new setup. Bigger blower, new injectors, different rail pressure, new exhaust, intake porting. Ve and all is completly different.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/749-scans/old-8d.bin
-- Joe
04-10-2004, 10:42 AM
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Car: 84 SVO
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Originally posted by anesthes
Bruce,
I don't have a "best running" bin right now.
The problem is the bucking. Its so bad at part throttle. Accel is fine, decel can be ok at times. But part throttle cruise is soo bad its gonna break the tranny or ring gear for sure.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/7...ns/JOE-v15.bin
Is the bin I've been working on. I'm trying a new $58 this morning to see if it makes a difference.
I could give you my old $8d bin, but I dunno how it would even run on my new setup. Bigger blower, new injectors, different rail pressure, new exhaust, intake porting. Ve and all is completly different.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/749-scans/old-8d.bin
-- Joe
Bruce,
I don't have a "best running" bin right now.
The problem is the bucking. Its so bad at part throttle. Accel is fine, decel can be ok at times. But part throttle cruise is soo bad its gonna break the tranny or ring gear for sure.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/7...ns/JOE-v15.bin
Is the bin I've been working on. I'm trying a new $58 this morning to see if it makes a difference.
I could give you my old $8d bin, but I dunno how it would even run on my new setup. Bigger blower, new injectors, different rail pressure, new exhaust, intake porting. Ve and all is completly different.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/749-scans/old-8d.bin
-- Joe
Hopefully get it fired up this weekend less blowers.. BW
04-10-2004, 10:45 AM
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Car: 84 SVO
Engine: Volvo headed 2.3T
Transmission: WCT5
Axle/Gears: 8.8" 3.73
Code:
0x0000 PROMID Prom ID Code 0x0F83 0x033F 0x0002 DATECODE Date Code 0x0D85 0x0161 0x0004 SEQNUMB Sequence Number 0x2B62 0x53E8 0x0006 KKSUM Prom Checksum 0xDDB0 0xD676 0x0008 KKPGMID Program ID 0x58 0xAA 0x000E KREFANGL Spark Reference Angle Deg. 9.8 0.0 0x0036 KKMASK2 Malfunction Flag Mask 2 0x9D 0xFD 0x0036 KKMASK2_M32 Malfunction Flag 32 Disabled Enabled 0x0036 KKMASK2_M31 Malfunction Flag 31 Disabled Enabled 0x0037 KKMASK3 Malfunction Flag Mask 3 0xED 0xFD 0x0037 KKMASK3_M51 Malfunction Flag 51 Disabled Enabled 0x00AE KFANCLTH Fan Enable Temp Threshold (Higher) Deg. C 91.25 84.50 0x00B0 KFANCLTL Fan Enable Temp Threshold (Lower) Deg. C 91.2 84.5 0x00B1 KFANCTHL Hot Fan Enable Temp Threshold (Lower) Deg. C 91.2 84.5 0x00B2 KFANCTHH Hot Fan Enable Temp Threshold (Higher) Deg. C 91.2 84.5 0x00B3 KFANCTCL Cold Fan Enable Coolant Temp Threshold (Low) Deg. C 91.2 84.5 0x00B4 KFANCTCH Cold Fan Enable Coolant Temp Threshold (High) Deg. C 91.2 84.5 0x00D0 KTCCTMPL TCC Lower Temp. Limit Deg. C -40.0 65.0 0x00D1 KCOASTHZ TCC Hysteresis for KCOAST1/2 % 0.00 0.02 0x00D3 KCOAST1A TCC Low-MPH Coast Load Limit MPH 0.0 0.0 0x00D4 KCOAST2A TCC High-MPH Coast Load Limit MPH 0.0 0.0 0x00D5 KREL1A TCC -Delta Throttle Pos. Unlock Limit % TPS 0 100 0x00D6 KREL2A TCC +Delta Throttle Pos. Unlock Limit % TPS 0 3 0x00DA KRSHNTHK TCC Road Speed Upper Lock Limit (3rd Gear) MPH 0.0 32.2 0x00DB KRSHNTLK TCC Road Speed Lower Lock Limit (3rd Gear) MPH 0.0 30.0 0x00DC F42 (3rd Gear, Upper) Load Limit vs MPH % TPS <table> <table> 0x00E7 F43 (3rd Gear, Lower) Load Limit vs MPH % TPS <table> <table> 0x00F4 KSPDSEN Road Speed Sensor Constant PU/MI 2,000 1,977 0x00F9 KRPMKNOB ESC Cutoff For ESC Retard RPM 1,800 737 0x013C KTPSHYSM Min. TPS For Shift Light On % 90.23 0.00 0x013D KRPMHYSM Min. RPM For Shift Light On RPM 6,000 0 0x013E KRPMAX RPM Over Which Shift Light is Always On RPM 6,025 6,375 0x014E KRPMIN1 1st Gear - Min. RPM For Light On RPM 6,025 6,375 0x0151 KTPSHYS1 1st Gear - TPS Hysteresis For Light On % 0.00 12.50 0x0160 KRPMIN2 2nd Gear - Min. RPM For Light On RPM 6,025 6,375 0x0184 KRPMIN4 4th Gear - Min. RPM For Light On RPM 6,025 6,375 0x0192 F1 Main Spark Advance Deg. vs MAP & RPM <table> <table> 0x0284 F2 Base Coolant Advance Correction Deg. C vs Deg. & Vac <table> <table> 0x0316 F46 Initial Spark Advance To Be Ramped Out vs Coolant Temp. Deg. <table> <table> 0x0328 KDISFS Injector Flow Rate Gal/Hr 6.0 4.9 0x033B KAETATH AE Delta Throttle Thresh., NTPSLD Units % 1.95 0.78 0x034A KCLTC Temp. Thresh. For C/L Determination Deg. C 50.0 21.5 0x0355 KBLMMAX Max. Allowable BLM Value 1.25 1.17 0x0356 KBLMMIN Min. Allowable BLM Value 0.84 0.82 0x0357 KCLOXTH O2 Sensor Rich-Lean Thresh. Volts 0.500 0.350 0x035A KCLITMI Closed Loop Min. Integrator Value Units 70 80 0x035B KCLITMX Closed Loop Max. Integrator Value Units 160 218 0x035F KDETATH Decel Enleanment Delta Throt. Angle Thres. % 255.00 3.00 0x037B KDFCOSLK Speed Below Which DFCO Is Disabled MPH 255.0 35.0 0x038A KFRPMLOW Hi RPM Fuel Cutoff Thresh. Lo Limit RPM 9,830 6,030 0x038C KFRPMHI Hi RPM Fuel Cutoff Thresh. Hi Limit RPM 10,031 6,105 0x03A0 KFMPHLOW Lower MPH for Boost Disable MPH 254.0 114.0 0x03A1 KFMPHHI Upper MPH for Boost Disable MPH 255.0 116.0 0x03A3 KWGMAPH MAP Threshold Enabling Fuel Shutoff kPa 206.44 204.09 0x03A4 KWGMAPL MAP Threshold Disabling Fuel Shutoff kPa 187.69 167.38 0x03C2 F70 Desired Boost Pressure Base vs NTRPMX and NTPSLD kPa <table> <table> 0x040E F28 Base Pulse Const. vs Desired EGR Const <table> <table> 0x0422 F29 Base Pulse VE vs RPM And MAP % <table> <table> 0x04AD F30 Base Pulse VE vs RPM % <table> <table> 0x0517 F37 AE Temp. Correction Factor vs Coolant Temp Factor <table> <table> 0x0551 F54 Crank AF vs Coolant Temperature Ratio <table> <table> 0x05BB F57 AF Ratio vs Coolant Temp (Cold Engine & Closed Throttle) Ratio <table> <table> 0x060D F77 Base Boost Multiplier vs MAP kPa-MAP <table> <table> 0x069E KALDLRPM Desired RPM For ALDL RPM 1,250.0 600.0 0x06AB F18 IAC - Desired Idle RPM vs Coolant For Drive RPM <table> <table> 0x06B1 F19 IAC - Desired Idle RPM vs Coolant For P/N RPM <table> <table> 0x06CD KEGRTEM1 EGR - Temperature Level For EGR Enable Deg. C 150.5 151.2
Note your spark angle is set at 9.8* to my 0* Your timing is way off. Also the Injector Flow Rate doesn't effect the injectors, use Table F28 instead for injector size changes.
BW
Last edited by SATURN5; 04-10-2004 at 11:11 AM.
04-10-2004, 11:34 AM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
I'm trying your bin now. Gonna go for a test drive in about 20 mins.
What program did you use to do that compare? Neat!
Maybe the bin I started off with last month was. A bad one?
And of course, I never wrote down the broadcast code so I don't remmeber where I got it. duh!
I'm still. Weirded out about the reference angle. I thought you were suposed to tell it how far advance you are to begin with ?
Thanks!
What program did you use to do that compare? Neat!
Maybe the bin I started off with last month was. A bad one?
And of course, I never wrote down the broadcast code so I don't remmeber where I got it. duh!
I'm still. Weirded out about the reference angle. I thought you were suposed to tell it how far advance you are to begin with ?
Thanks!
04-10-2004, 11:35 AM
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Car: An Ol Buick
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Originally posted by anesthes
The problem is the bucking. Its so bad at part throttle. Accel is fine, decel can be ok at times. But part throttle cruise is soo bad its gonna break the tranny or ring gear for sure.
The problem is the bucking. Its so bad at part throttle. Accel is fine, decel can be ok at times. But part throttle cruise is soo bad its gonna break the tranny or ring gear for sure.
I see where you have the DFCO turned off, but where/how did you turn off the DE?.
04-10-2004, 11:43 AM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Grumpy,
I turned DE back on cuz it didnt do anything to help.
30-50kpa, anything from 1600rpm to 2400rpm. A very very light throttle, like 1-3 % will do it, or 0.0% tps will do it. An outright decel, like 0.0% tps going downhill and its fine. If I have 0.0% tps at say 1800rpm, on level ground your in for a rodeo ride!
If you look at those areas (in the joe-v15 bin) you'll see where I tried adding timing, adding fuel, etc to make up for it. Doesn't help. If I keep the throttle on hard, like 6-10% its fine. But you can't drive all the time like that.
Also, if i'm crusing, and I nail WOT, the car surges, like slows for a half a second, jerks me forward, then launches full boost, like .920mv o2, and goes nuts. But that little surge is dangerous. Easy to loose control.
If you look at the datamaster log on my site, in the http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/749-scans/ directory, there is plenty of example of it in open and closed loop. I basicly made it do it for the duration of a street to see what the outputs would be. On the graph they show up as jagged lines. weirdness.
-- Joe
I turned DE back on cuz it didnt do anything to help.
30-50kpa, anything from 1600rpm to 2400rpm. A very very light throttle, like 1-3 % will do it, or 0.0% tps will do it. An outright decel, like 0.0% tps going downhill and its fine. If I have 0.0% tps at say 1800rpm, on level ground your in for a rodeo ride!
If you look at those areas (in the joe-v15 bin) you'll see where I tried adding timing, adding fuel, etc to make up for it. Doesn't help. If I keep the throttle on hard, like 6-10% its fine. But you can't drive all the time like that.
Also, if i'm crusing, and I nail WOT, the car surges, like slows for a half a second, jerks me forward, then launches full boost, like .920mv o2, and goes nuts. But that little surge is dangerous. Easy to loose control.
If you look at the datamaster log on my site, in the http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/749-scans/ directory, there is plenty of example of it in open and closed loop. I basicly made it do it for the duration of a street to see what the outputs would be. On the graph they show up as jagged lines. weirdness.
-- Joe
04-10-2004, 11:58 AM
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Car: 84 SVO
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Transmission: WCT5
Axle/Gears: 8.8" 3.73
Originally posted by anesthes
I'm trying your bin now. Gonna go for a test drive in about 20 mins.
What program did you use to do that compare? Neat!
Maybe the bin I started off with last month was. A bad one?
And of course, I never wrote down the broadcast code so I don't remmeber where I got it. duh!
I'm still. Weirded out about the reference angle. I thought you were suposed to tell it how far advance you are to begin with ?
Thanks!
I'm trying your bin now. Gonna go for a test drive in about 20 mins.
What program did you use to do that compare? Neat!
Maybe the bin I started off with last month was. A bad one?
And of course, I never wrote down the broadcast code so I don't remmeber where I got it. duh!
I'm still. Weirded out about the reference angle. I thought you were suposed to tell it how far advance you are to begin with ?
Thanks!
The P4 doc, "Says intial timing is defined as the spark timing in engine degrees referenced to TDC with the EST system in the bypass mode. A parameter "KREFANGLE" degrees, must be set to this inital timing value. After all other advances are added together, "KREFANGLE" is subtracted from the sum to reference the degees adanced from the position of initial timing."
Yikes... Looks like I am running 6* more timing than I'm showing.
Whats strange is all my stock bins, all show zero degrees. Now no engine is set to zero degrees.. so by default, shouldn't it be set by GM to say 6 degrees from the start?
BW
Last edited by SATURN5; 04-10-2004 at 12:02 PM.
04-10-2004, 12:22 PM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
The P4 doc, "Says intial timing is defined as the spark timing in engine degrees referenced to TDC with the EST system in the bypass mode. A parameter "KREFANGLE" degrees, must be set to this inital timing value. After all other advances are added together, "KREFANGLE" is subtracted from the sum to reference the degees adanced from the position of initial timing."
Yikes... Looks like I am running 6* more timing than I'm showing
Yikes... Looks like I am running 6* more timing than I'm showing
I know the TPI motors were 6d advance, but the 305 TBI were 0d. Maybe the sy-ty's were as well?
Gonna leave in a few minutes and try out your bin. Wish me luck.
-- Joe
04-15-2004, 08:37 AM
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Car: GTA -89
Engine: Blown 415"
Transmission: 4L80E
Axle/Gears: Strange 12-bolt
So whats the story here about the timing? should I set it to 6deg to get the spark tables right or what, when I do the swap to 58code?
/N.
/N.
04-15-2004, 10:23 AM
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Car: 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
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Transmission: 6L80E
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Side question here: Isn't there a bit of timing built-in to the GM Ignition module? Even if the tables show 0, I thought that there was a bit of advance in the module...not much, but something...
Or am I thinking of aftermarket modules? Could this be an issue?
Or am I thinking of aftermarket modules? Could this be an issue?
04-15-2004, 10:28 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by gta324
So whats the story here about the timing? should I set it to 6deg to get the spark tables right or what, when I do the swap to 58code?
/N.
So whats the story here about the timing? should I set it to 6deg to get the spark tables right or what, when I do the swap to 58code?
/N.
In this manner they cancel out, what the distributor adds, the ECM removes.
RBob.
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