Converting to 749 ECM???
05-15-2003, 04:18 PM
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Car: '90 Iroc
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 5 spd
Converting to 749 ECM???
What exactly is needed and what is the process of converting to a 749 ECM?
I'm looking into building a boosted motor and would like to know the details of converting from my current ECM (305 TPI SD) to a 749.
Do I have to swap ECM's or can I make my current one (730???) work like a 749? The reason for this question is something I read in another post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=749
$58 code is from the Turbo Sunbird and Syclone/Typhoon. It is a 2 bar code set up a blown application. Originally used in a 7749 ECM it can also be used in a 7730 so long as you use high Z (SAT) TPI injectors as the 7730 only has one injector driver compared to the 7749 which has two. The two drivers were only used in the Turbo Sunbird or some Quad 4's, as they both use low Z (P/H) TPI injectors. (will only run 4 P/H TPI injectors in OEM form) All that needs done is the harness must be changed to match a SyTy. Wiring diagrams have been posted on the DIY board. Also Bort62 has a site detailing this same info.
Simply put... for cheap you can ditch the FMU and have the ECM do the job.
I need clarification on what this means. I think this conversion is something a lot of people are interested in and when I searched for "749" I didn't find any posts that were explicit about the swap. Maybe if all the necessary info comes out this can be a sticky.
BTW: I chose this forum rather than DFI&ECM because it seems that more 749 issues are discussed here.
Thanks.
I'm looking into building a boosted motor and would like to know the details of converting from my current ECM (305 TPI SD) to a 749.
Do I have to swap ECM's or can I make my current one (730???) work like a 749? The reason for this question is something I read in another post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=749
$58 code is from the Turbo Sunbird and Syclone/Typhoon. It is a 2 bar code set up a blown application. Originally used in a 7749 ECM it can also be used in a 7730 so long as you use high Z (SAT) TPI injectors as the 7730 only has one injector driver compared to the 7749 which has two. The two drivers were only used in the Turbo Sunbird or some Quad 4's, as they both use low Z (P/H) TPI injectors. (will only run 4 P/H TPI injectors in OEM form) All that needs done is the harness must be changed to match a SyTy. Wiring diagrams have been posted on the DIY board. Also Bort62 has a site detailing this same info.
Simply put... for cheap you can ditch the FMU and have the ECM do the job.
I need clarification on what this means. I think this conversion is something a lot of people are interested in and when I searched for "749" I didn't find any posts that were explicit about the swap. Maybe if all the necessary info comes out this can be a sticky.
BTW: I chose this forum rather than DFI&ECM because it seems that more 749 issues are discussed here.
Thanks.
05-15-2003, 04:57 PM
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Car: 84 SVO
Engine: Volvo headed 2.3T
Transmission: WCT5
Axle/Gears: 8.8" 3.73
Hmm...... 
The short of it is a 730 will run the $58 code provided you repin the harness to match a 749 as wired in a SyTy. The major changes are IAC, TCC and a injector wire is moved. A 2 bar MAP sensor is nesessary too.
So long as saturated (TPI) injectors are used this will work fine. I can swap from a 730 to 749 with only swapping the calpacks. I have ran my Malibu on both. The 749 differs from the 730 in that it has an additional injector controller and driver. This was for the sunbird turbo that used 4 P/H (TPI) injectors.
Be aware that the $58 code does not support several functions that you may need. CPP is not used and the EGR must be disabled in the code when used with a V8.
cheers, Bob
The short of it is a 730 will run the $58 code provided you repin the harness to match a 749 as wired in a SyTy. The major changes are IAC, TCC and a injector wire is moved. A 2 bar MAP sensor is nesessary too.
So long as saturated (TPI) injectors are used this will work fine. I can swap from a 730 to 749 with only swapping the calpacks. I have ran my Malibu on both. The 749 differs from the 730 in that it has an additional injector controller and driver. This was for the sunbird turbo that used 4 P/H (TPI) injectors.
Be aware that the $58 code does not support several functions that you may need. CPP is not used and the EGR must be disabled in the code when used with a V8.
cheers, Bob
05-15-2003, 06:09 PM
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Car: '90 Iroc
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 5 spd
Originally posted by SATURN5
Hmm......
The short of it is a 730 will run the $58 code provided you repin the harness to match a 749 as wired in a SyTy. The major changes are IAC, TCC and a injector wire is moved. A 2 bar MAP sensor is nesessary too.
So long as saturated (TPI) injectors are used this will work fine. I can swap from a 730 to 749 with only swapping the calpacks. I have ran my Malibu on both. The 749 differs from the 730 in that it has an additional injector controller and driver. This was for the sunbird turbo that used 4 P/H (TPI) injectors.
Be aware that the $58 code does not support several functions that you may need. CPP is not used and the EGR must be disabled in the code when used with a V8.
cheers, Bob
Hmm......
The short of it is a 730 will run the $58 code provided you repin the harness to match a 749 as wired in a SyTy. The major changes are IAC, TCC and a injector wire is moved. A 2 bar MAP sensor is nesessary too.
So long as saturated (TPI) injectors are used this will work fine. I can swap from a 730 to 749 with only swapping the calpacks. I have ran my Malibu on both. The 749 differs from the 730 in that it has an additional injector controller and driver. This was for the sunbird turbo that used 4 P/H (TPI) injectors.
Be aware that the $58 code does not support several functions that you may need. CPP is not used and the EGR must be disabled in the code when used with a V8.
cheers, Bob
What's involved in swapping in a 749 ECM? Do you need to swap the whole harness?
I've read that the EGR won't work with a V8 but what's CPP?
05-15-2003, 06:23 PM
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Car: 84 SVO
Engine: Volvo headed 2.3T
Transmission: WCT5
Axle/Gears: 8.8" 3.73
Repin is simply switching the needed wires from one position to another in the ECM connectors. The connectors are made up of three parts. The main body and 2 "combs" which help retain the wires. A small jewler's screwdriver inserted into the ECM side of the connector will release the terminal and wire from the connector once the comb is off. From there reinsert the wire into the appropriate spot and replace the comb.
No need to replace the harness. In fact I am using a reworked 165 harness in the Malibu.
CCP charcoal canister purge. my bad.
No need to replace the harness. In fact I am using a reworked 165 harness in the Malibu.
CCP charcoal canister purge. my bad.
05-16-2003, 08:57 AM
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Hey man
check out this site, it seems to go into detail.
http://www.speedtoys.com/~bort62/7749/Main.htm
check out this site, it seems to go into detail.
http://www.speedtoys.com/~bort62/7749/Main.htm
05-17-2003, 08:38 PM
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In the process of swapping from 730 to 749 and have a couple of questions:
1) Is there a place in TC or Programmer to enter cylinder size? If not, do you just leave it?
2)Should I leave my distributor set at 6* as per factory specs or is the Sy/Ty distributor setting different. So that my timing tables are accurate.
3)I read in another post that changing the injector flow rate did not do anything. If this is so, how do you specify injector size?
This is in Tunercat.
1) Is there a place in TC or Programmer to enter cylinder size? If not, do you just leave it?
2)Should I leave my distributor set at 6* as per factory specs or is the Sy/Ty distributor setting different. So that my timing tables are accurate.
3)I read in another post that changing the injector flow rate did not do anything. If this is so, how do you specify injector size?
This is in Tunercat.
05-17-2003, 08:58 PM
#7
Good Stuff!
I got tons of good stuff from here in the tech section.
www.chitownsyty.com Reall good explanatins of what the most important tables do. I'm sure this will answer most of the questions you have as far as what to do in the chip.
www.chitownsyty.com Reall good explanatins of what the most important tables do. I'm sure this will answer most of the questions you have as far as what to do in the chip.
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05-18-2003, 07:50 AM
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I just checked that site out and this was one of the FAQ.
What should my timing be set at? and is there anything special I have to do to check it?
Zero degrees, there is a brown wire under the carpet where the passengers foot would rest, disconnect it to check for zero degrees. You will set a code by doing this, so make sure after you verify the timing that you reconnect the brown wire and unplug the ECM fuse to reset the ECM's stored codes. Doing a Top Dead Center check is a good thing. This verifies that your balancer readings are accurate, as the balancer ring can spin, giving values that are not accurate, making timing verifications worthless. This is crucial, because if a truck is running advanced timing, it will detonate and cause engine damage.
Does this mean I should go back and set my base timing to 0* instead of 6*? I didn't find much about my other two questions either.
What should my timing be set at? and is there anything special I have to do to check it?
Zero degrees, there is a brown wire under the carpet where the passengers foot would rest, disconnect it to check for zero degrees. You will set a code by doing this, so make sure after you verify the timing that you reconnect the brown wire and unplug the ECM fuse to reset the ECM's stored codes. Doing a Top Dead Center check is a good thing. This verifies that your balancer readings are accurate, as the balancer ring can spin, giving values that are not accurate, making timing verifications worthless. This is crucial, because if a truck is running advanced timing, it will detonate and cause engine damage.
Does this mean I should go back and set my base timing to 0* instead of 6*? I didn't find much about my other two questions either.
05-18-2003, 11:52 AM
#10
Justme, what do you mean there was anything about your other two questions?
" 0x040E F28_TABLE Base Pulse Const. vs Desired EGR
Const
This is the closest thing we have to an injector constant in our chip. This value is a direct fuel multiplier. Multiply the values in this table by 1.5, your injector pulsewidths will be 1.5 times longer across the board. When working with larger injectors, this should be the first table you rescale"
Did you read all the tech articles? I actually printed a few of them for reference material while burning the chips. I learned more in a couple of hours on the ChiTown site than I did in days reading forum posts.
" 0x040E F28_TABLE Base Pulse Const. vs Desired EGR
Const
This is the closest thing we have to an injector constant in our chip. This value is a direct fuel multiplier. Multiply the values in this table by 1.5, your injector pulsewidths will be 1.5 times longer across the board. When working with larger injectors, this should be the first table you rescale"
Did you read all the tech articles? I actually printed a few of them for reference material while burning the chips. I learned more in a couple of hours on the ChiTown site than I did in days reading forum posts.
05-18-2003, 12:23 PM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by justme
I read that too. I am not running any EGR though. Also, what is the purpose of the injector flow rate in Tunercat?
I read that too. I am not running any EGR though. Also, what is the purpose of the injector flow rate in Tunercat?
RBob.
05-18-2003, 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by RBob
To set your injector/displacement ratio use the 0% EGR entry of the BPC table. The injector flow rate does nothing. Notice that there is no complementary engine displacement constant.
RBob.
To set your injector/displacement ratio use the 0% EGR entry of the BPC table. The injector flow rate does nothing. Notice that there is no complementary engine displacement constant.
RBob.
Sorry if this has been covered before but could you go into a little more detail about injector/displacement ratio and setting it up for my injectors (42lb/hr) and my displacement (406cu.). I ran a stock $58 bin with only 45.8 lb/hr setting in "Injector Flow Rate" constant and the car idled and ran 10 times smoother than it has with stock $8D bins.
05-18-2003, 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by justme
Sorry if this has been covered before but could you go into a little more detail about injector/displacement ratio and setting it up for my injectors (42lb/hr) and my displacement (406cu.). I ran a stock $58 bin with only 45.8 lb/hr setting in "Injector Flow Rate" constant and the car idled and ran 10 times smoother than it has with stock $8D bins.
Sorry if this has been covered before but could you go into a little more detail about injector/displacement ratio and setting it up for my injectors (42lb/hr) and my displacement (406cu.). I ran a stock $58 bin with only 45.8 lb/hr setting in "Injector Flow Rate" constant and the car idled and ran 10 times smoother than it has with stock $8D bins.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=177713
Look for your post sandwich'd in between. . .
RBob.
05-18-2003, 07:07 PM
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Ok, let me make sure I got this now.
BPC = 730.75 <- [I assume this is a constant] * (VOL/RATE)
VOL = Vol of 1 Cylinder in liters =.834 in my case ?
Rate = Injector Flow in GMS/SEC = 5.7708 (taking into account my injector flow rate and current fuel pressure)
Given that gms/sec = (45.8#/hr / 3600) * 453.6
BPC=730.75*(.834/5.7708)
BPC=105.6084
BPC=106
BPC=$6a
So I need to enter $6a into Bin location $40E?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also, I downloaded TDF Editor and was wondering what changes to make there to get the same calculations. I did read the post but I am not familiar enough with that stuff to understand what funstick meant by:"download TDF editor and change the multiplier to 1. and the units to 1 and the max and min values to 1 and 255 respectively." I found the table but did not see what I was supposed to change exactly.
BPC = 730.75 <- [I assume this is a constant] * (VOL/RATE)
VOL = Vol of 1 Cylinder in liters =.834 in my case ?
Rate = Injector Flow in GMS/SEC = 5.7708 (taking into account my injector flow rate and current fuel pressure)
Given that gms/sec = (45.8#/hr / 3600) * 453.6
BPC=730.75*(.834/5.7708)
BPC=105.6084
BPC=106
BPC=$6a
So I need to enter $6a into Bin location $40E?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also, I downloaded TDF Editor and was wondering what changes to make there to get the same calculations. I did read the post but I am not familiar enough with that stuff to understand what funstick meant by:"download TDF editor and change the multiplier to 1. and the units to 1 and the max and min values to 1 and 255 respectively." I found the table but did not see what I was supposed to change exactly.
05-18-2003, 07:14 PM
#16
I would not bother using tunercat. Yes, it has the eye candy factor, and it is a pretty thorough editor for most ECMs. But from what the guys on the Sy/Ty sites are saying, it is totally lacking when it comes to the $58 code. Get Promgrammer. Its not nearly as nice to use, but it has WAY more parameters in it then TunerCat does. And the other plus is if you snoop around theSy/Ty forums almost all the threads on chip tweaking refer to the tables by the Programmer labels.
05-18-2003, 07:52 PM
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Programmer is great. Combined with a hex editor, making changes is fairly straight forward. Also has a memo box for keeping notes of changes.
justme... $40E is just the first entry of that table. F28 table starts at $40E and ends at $41E. what I am not sure is if the rest of the table needs changed to match or changed to zero?
The original bin was filled with .089. I have changed mine all to read .085 to reflect the 305/30lb injectors.
justme... $40E is just the first entry of that table. F28 table starts at $40E and ends at $41E. what I am not sure is if the rest of the table needs changed to match or changed to zero?
The original bin was filled with .089. I have changed mine all to read .085 to reflect the 305/30lb injectors.
05-18-2003, 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by SATURN5
Programmer is great. Combined with a hex editor, making changes is fairly straight forward. Also has a memo box for keeping notes of changes.
Programmer is great. Combined with a hex editor, making changes is fairly straight forward. Also has a memo box for keeping notes of changes.
I also do have Promgrammer but since I just started the $58 stuff I was more familiar with TC.
Originally posted by SATURN5
justme... $40E is just the first entry of that table. F28 table starts at $40E and ends at $41E. what I am not sure is if the rest of the table needs changed to match or changed to zero?
justme... $40E is just the first entry of that table. F28 table starts at $40E and ends at $41E. what I am not sure is if the rest of the table needs changed to match or changed to zero?
Originally posted by SATURN5
The original bin was filled with .089. I have changed mine all to read .085 to reflect the 305/30lb injectors.
The original bin was filled with .089. I have changed mine all to read .085 to reflect the 305/30lb injectors.
Last edited by justme; 05-18-2003 at 08:13 PM.
05-18-2003, 08:13 PM
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Car: 84 SVO
Engine: Volvo headed 2.3T
Transmission: WCT5
Axle/Gears: 8.8" 3.73
i]Originally posted by justme [/i]
I also do have Programmer but since I just started the $58 stuff I was more familiar with
Since I have disabled EGR then would the 0% be all I need to care about messing with?
< Thats what I'm trying to figure out.
How has this worked out for you so far? Compared to the stock setting of .089.
< I have just made this change, I havent had a chance to drive the malibu.. been wet all day, however it runs pretty good @.089.
I also do have Programmer but since I just started the $58 stuff I was more familiar with
Since I have disabled EGR then would the 0% be all I need to care about messing with?
< Thats what I'm trying to figure out.
How has this worked out for you so far? Compared to the stock setting of .089.
< I have just made this change, I havent had a chance to drive the malibu.. been wet all day, however it runs pretty good @.089.
Last edited by SATURN5; 05-18-2003 at 08:16 PM.
05-19-2003, 08:32 AM
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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I'm working on directly hacking $8D to support boost. Though lately my boat has been taking up my time. I'll get back to this soon.
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-- Joe
05-19-2003, 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by justme
Also, I downloaded TDF Editor and was wondering what changes to make there to get the same calculations. I did read the post but I am not familiar enough with that stuff to understand what funstick meant by:"download TDF editor and change the multiplier to 1. and the units to 1 and the max and min values to 1 and 255 respectively."
Also, I downloaded TDF Editor and was wondering what changes to make there to get the same calculations. I did read the post but I am not familiar enough with that stuff to understand what funstick meant by:"download TDF editor and change the multiplier to 1. and the units to 1 and the max and min values to 1 and 255 respectively."
Anyone?
05-20-2003, 08:23 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by SATURN5
[B]i]Originally posted by justme [/i]
I also do have Programmer but since I just started the $58 stuff I was more familiar with
Have a link to "Programmer" please? I spent about four hours on Sunday and repinned from 870 to 730 at the ecm. I figure I better tune a bit on the 730 before jumping whole hog and going directly to $58 code.
[B]i]Originally posted by justme [/i]
I also do have Programmer but since I just started the $58 stuff I was more familiar with
Have a link to "Programmer" please? I spent about four hours on Sunday and repinned from 870 to 730 at the ecm. I figure I better tune a bit on the 730 before jumping whole hog and going directly to $58 code.
05-20-2003, 11:01 PM
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After doing the switch from 165 to 730 and then from 730 to 749, I wish I would have just went from 165 to 749. I was greatly surprised to see how much better my car ran with just a stock $58 bin on it with minor changes than it did with the $8D.
Promgrammer
Promgrammer
05-21-2003, 06:05 AM
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Thats surprising considering how less refined your map + spark tables now are, as well as all your fuel calculations vs map.
Like I said in other posts, I'm working on a second map sensor for 2 bar stuff that will retard timing, and add fuel > 100kpa, but I don't wanna mess up my part throttle (1 bar) stuff.. I think leaving all the map and spark tables alone, leaving the 1 bar there is the best idea. Adding the second map sensor, and then 2 tables; a fuel multiplier, and advance divider is the best route.
So THAT is what I'm working on.
-- Joe
Like I said in other posts, I'm working on a second map sensor for 2 bar stuff that will retard timing, and add fuel > 100kpa, but I don't wanna mess up my part throttle (1 bar) stuff.. I think leaving all the map and spark tables alone, leaving the 1 bar there is the best idea. Adding the second map sensor, and then 2 tables; a fuel multiplier, and advance divider is the best route.
So THAT is what I'm working on.
-- Joe
05-21-2003, 12:18 PM
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Thanks for the link! One note on that site is the Java link is out of date. they link 1.3.1, 1.4.2 is out now.
I just felt that the switch to the 870 to 730 was enough changing since I had to make changes for the 165 and figure out how to convert to an electric speedo. I saw the speedo conversion link but havent got started on it yet. I dont have the VSS wiring I need yet. Honestly it souunds fairly easy to get from a 730 to 749 code.
Right now I've got the old supercharger off and sold so it's just really just an 89 IROC engine with good exhaust. So for now a aujp bin without VATS fits the bill. Will go 749 code when the new engine and supercharger are in.
I just felt that the switch to the 870 to 730 was enough changing since I had to make changes for the 165 and figure out how to convert to an electric speedo. I saw the speedo conversion link but havent got started on it yet. I dont have the VSS wiring I need yet. Honestly it souunds fairly easy to get from a 730 to 749 code.
Right now I've got the old supercharger off and sold so it's just really just an 89 IROC engine with good exhaust. So for now a aujp bin without VATS fits the bill. Will go 749 code when the new engine and supercharger are in.
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