Momar

I havnt seen any, and i am going to be getting my 350 w/ computer controlled carb on the road this summer. I can do without it, but I though if they made the scanning software it would be a help in tuing the carb at least. I wish that they made software to program the chips for these so I could setup my timing and all but oh well, at least I can adjust it a little at the carb and distributer.

Thanks

Grumpy

A dwell meter takes care of the fuel.
Scanning the timing would be useful, but reading Doug Roe's Q-Jet book is what you need to do.

Momar

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a dwell meter. I am new to carbs. I studied up on the working of tpi for quite some time but that didnt work out for now. I will look into that book. Do you know where it is sold?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

A dwell meter is usually built into volt meters (when I bought my dig. v. meter @ pep boys for $35, it did not have dwell) A short explanation is that you can hook it up to the green coloured end of a pigtail (that normally has nothing connected to it) and monitor dwell on the *6 cylinder* setting of dwell (don't ask me why, but it's read on 6 cyl. scale)

Essentially The mixture control solenoids duty cycle is measured by this; it controls the primary rods by constantly pulsing them downwards (at rest they are up which is full rich)

Generically speaking, 30 degrees of dwell is close to stoichiometric, but this setting will change with many different parameters. If you mess with idle air bleed (up top, flat tip screwdriver) or mix screws on the lower front, or the rich & lean stops of the MC solenoid, those will affect dwell, as the ECM is trying to maintain stoich. based on O2 readings.

I bought my Doug Roe Rochester Carbs book @ Hastings here (big book / music store) and it's carried on Amazon.com. The ISBN should be able to be found on Amazon; use that to order it locally. The Haynes Rochester carbs book isn't bad either; I have it too.

I didn't bother getting a meter w/ dwell after all, because I purchased an AllScan1 a few years back and I can watch dwell, O2's and all the other fun stuff, but now I wish to do that w/ my laptop so I'll keep in touch as I make progress monitoring my 87 L69 (same ECM & stuff as an 87 Camaro LG4) and you do the same, k?

Matthew

Momar

Yep, thanks. Actually it is not quite an 87 lg4. It is more like a 78 350 w/ the carb and dist and computer stuff off of an lg4. I have rebuilt the carb and put new tps and dr rods and b hanger in it. The car isnt running yet though. I am just getting ready for when it is(hopefully this summer). I have done a lot to the car.


Ben

Momar

Oh, and could someone show me a diagram of the carb or something that will tell me what adjustments do what.

Thanks

Ben

JoBy

WinALDL ( http://winaldl.webhop.net ) works with some carbed engines.

Momar

Were would be the cheapest place to get the cable and do you know what carbed engines?

JoBy

I found a defintion for 1984 - 1986 carbed ECM's. It might work for others too. What year / engine do you have?

Radio Shack has all the parts and it is easy to build.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

the 87/88 LG4 & L69 ECM is # 1228079 and I'd like to be able to scan it. Haven't tried yet.

Matthew

JoBy

I did some research ...

Supported using WinALDL selection "CLCC 1984 car, 1985, 1986"
-------------------------------------------
3.0L CLCC (LK9) - (E) - 84 85
3.8L V6 CLCC (LD5) - (A) - 84, 85, 86, 87
4.1L V6 CLCC (LC4) - (4) - 84, 85
4.3L V6 CLCC (LS5) - (S) - 85, 86
3.8L V6 CLCC (LC3) - (9) - 84
2.8L CARB (LE2) - (X) - 84, 85
2.8L CARB (LC1) - (1) - 84
2.8L CARB (LH7) - (Z) - 84
2.8L CARB (LL1) - (L) - 84
2.8L CARB (LR2) - (B) - 84, 85
2.8L CARB (LE2) - (X) - 86
5.0L V8 CLCC (L69) - (G) - 86, 87, 88
5.0L V8 CLCC (LG4) - (H) - 88


not supported but most values are correct
-------------------------------------------
5.0L V8 CLCC (LV2) - (Y) - 84
5.0L V8 CLCC (L69) - (G) - 84
5.0L V8 CLCC (LG4) - (H) - 84
5.0L V8 CLCC (LG8) - (9) - 84
5.0L V8 CLCC (LM1) - (6) - 84
5.0L V8 CLCC (LV2) - (Y) - 85, 86, 87
5.0L V8 CLCC (LG8) - (9) - 85
5.0L V8 CLCC (L69) - (G) - 85
5.0L V8 CLCC (LG4) - (H) - 85, 86, 87
5.7L V8 CLCC (LM1) - (6) - 85, 86, 87, 88
4.3L V8 CLCC (LB1) - (N) - 85, 86
5.0L V8 CLCC (LF3) - (H) - 85, 86
5.7L V8 CLCC (LS9) - (L) - 85, 86
4.3L CLCC (LV8) - (VIN=F) - 82
5.0L CLCC (LG4) - (VIN=H) - 82

not supported
-------------------------------------------
5.0L V8 CLCC BUICK - (LV2) - (Y) - 88,89,90
5.0L V8 CLCC BUICK - (LG8) - (9) - 88,89,90
2.5L CLC LW9 (5) 81
2.8L CLC LH7 (Z) 81
3.8L CLC LC3 (K) 81
3.8L CLCT LC8 (3) 81
3.8L CLC LD5 (A) 81
4.1L CLC LC4 (4) 81
4.3L CLC LS5 (S) 81
4.3L CLC LV8 (F) 81
4.4L CLC L39 (J) 81
4.9L CLC L37 (W) 81
4.9L CLCT LV8 (T) 81
5.0L CLC LG4 (H) 81
5.0L CLC LV2 (Y) 81
5.7L CLC LM1 (L) 81
5.7L CLC L77 (B) 81
5.7L CLC L82 (6) 81

Momar

Mine falls under the not supported but most vaues are correct. Does this mean that it will work somewhat or not at all or what?

JoBy

It will work, but a few values will be garbage.
What engine in the list is yours?

z28bill

I am in the same boat. I have a 87 LG4. I made the cable and think I did it correctly. I also downloaded the software and that works. So I go to the car and hook it up, and guess what, no connecter at the "E" terminal. It is blank, with no wire going to it. Is there any other way I can make this work?

So far, your help as been excellent, and hopefully you will be able to figure this one out.

JoBy

The carbed ECM's use pin D instead of pin E.

Two bytes will be wrong with the 87 LG4

Byte 7, KNOCK_CNT in WinALDL is a status byte with the following bits:

0 ADVANCE FLAG 0 = ADVANCE
1 WARM FLAG 1 = WARM
2 TIMING ERROR - 100 MSEC LOGIC FAILED TO COMPLETE
3 HOT ENGINE MODE 1 = HOT ENGINE
4 TCC ROAD SPEED 1ST PULSE FLAG 1 = TCC ON
5 REAR VACUUM BREAK SOLENOID ON 1 = SOLENOID ON
6 EST ENABLED FLAG
7 ENGINE RUNNING FLAG 1 = RUNNING


Byte 17, EGRDC in WinALDL is also a status byte with the following bits:

0 AIR CONDITIONING SWITCH ON 1 = ON
1 MOUNTAIN COAST MODE ON 1 = ON
2 STACK OVERRIDE ON RAM FLAG
3 AIR CONDITIONING CLUTCH DESIRED 1 = DESIRED
4 EXHAUSE GAS RECIRCULATION 1 = ON
5 NOT USED
6 WARM 1 FLAG
7 AIR CONDITION CLUTCH ON 1 = ON


You can look at the raw data for these bytes to decode them.

0 = 1
1 = 2
2 = 4
3 = 8
4 = 16
5 = 32
6 = 64
7 = 128

If you get a value of 133, then you got 128+4+1 and that gives you bits 0, 2 and 7.

Momar

My car is a 350 that will be running off of a 85 lg4 computer. Is there any way to make it read proplerly. Will it show anything properly or will I have to look at everything in that code? I am sort of confused. Will it still show the titles for all of the fields, but I will have to decode the binary in order to know what the reading for that field is or what. Thanks for the help

Ben

JoBy

The probram will decode everything exept for those two bytes. On the sensor tab those two variables ( KNOCK_CNT and EGRDC ) will be garbage.

Momar

Well, I guess thats kind of good, and kind of bad. It will be nice that I can use a scanning software on my car, but not having the knock count functional will kind of suck. I dont know myself how much good the egrdc does or not though.

Ben

Momar

Can someone give me a list of the stuff (preferably with part numbers when possible) for the stuff I will need to build an aldl adapter for my car(85 lg4 setup). I have seen some drawings and stuff for it, but pictures and instructions on how to put it together would be good. I can solder but I have never made my own adapter or anthing, about all I have done is fix stuff. I would consider buying one so that I would have a nice plug for the aldl port but it was mentioned that at least one of the pins would be wrong, however I wondered if I could just change where a couple of wires went on one of the pre made ones went and be good to go.

Ben

z28bill

I am still trying to establish a good connection. Once I do, I will let you know what you need. I got everything at radioshack for about six dollars.

First connection tonight, but I only received a small amount of data, but at least it worked!

Momar

Cool, keep me updated.

Ben

jmd

iTrader: (4)

So far, I'm not getting anything out of my 87 L69 w/ Andrews cable & winALDL.

I'll have to check back & post what settings I'm using I guess.

Matthew

Momar

Was the cable made specifically for the carbed car? Because JoBy said that on the carbed cars, the pin d is used instead of pin e.

JoBy

This site has a variation of the cable interface that should be compatible. It uses LED and there are instructions on how to test the interface.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/fo_elmo/aldlinterface.htm

With the carbed engines you should also test the non-standard baudrate setting in the configuration dialog.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Dunno, but I'll check it. I think I'll piggyback D over to E in the car if that's the case. Now where did I put my spare ALDL wiring stuffs ?

Thanks.

Matthew

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I have an odd question.

Why is it that the LG4 for 1988 is supported, yet the 87 is not, and it uses the exact same ECM?

Matthew

Momar

Yes, I have a setup off of an 85 lg4 and would like to know what the difference is between the earlier lg4s and appearantly the 85 l69 and the 88 lg4 and 86-88 l69. If any one knows what changes were made, and if it is possible to convert and how hard it is that would be great.

Ben

jmd

iTrader: (4)

83-88 L69 all have knock sensors; LG4 got the knock sensor in 1985.

The pinout on the ECM is the same through the years AFAIK, and GM issues the 87/88 LG4 / L69 ECM with the ZZ4 swap kit for 83-up LG4 vehicles, so you should be able to change ECM to the 87/88 unit and there you go.

And of the course the distributor wiring changed in 87...

Matthew
1986 Monte Carlo SS
1987 Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe
1983 Monte Carlo SS

JoBy

According to the information I have, a few flags have changed, but the big differance ids that the mode word on byte 7 was replaced with knock count.

5.0L V8 CLCC (LG4) - (H) - 85, 86, 87
----------------------------------------------
[7] MODE WORD 1
(bit 0) ADVANCE FLAG 0 = ADVANCE
(bit 1) WARM FLAG 1 = WARM
(bit 2) TIMING ERROR - 100 MSEC LOGIC FAILED TO COMPLETE
(bit 3) HOT ENGINE MODE 1 = HOT ENGINE
(bit 4) TCC ROAD SPEED 1ST PULSE FLAG 1 = TCC ON
(bit 5) REAR VACUUM BREAK SOLENOID ON 1 = SOLENOID ON
(bit 6) EST ENABLED FLAG
(bit 7) ENGINE RUNNING FLAG 1 = RUNNING


5.0L V8 CLCC (LG4) - (H) - 88
-------------------------------------
[7] KNOCK COUNT

z28bill

Is this what you guys are experiencing?

I made a new cable with a small enclosure and a PC breadboard. I did this for less chance of incidential contact between connectors. The new cable also renders new voltage reading, much to my surprise.

I did the voltage test between pins 2 and 5. I have power going though the resistor to pin 2 terminal, therefore I do not use pin 4. I did three test this time. The first was without the D terminal plugged in, and it gave me 2 volts. The next test was with the D terminal plugged in and that gave me 6 volts. Lastly, the final test was with D terminal plugged in and a resistor between A and B, this gave me -6 volts.

I have not tried the new cable with the laptop yet, but do these numbers sound about right. If the voltage is about 6, could this be a representation of voltage rapidly changeing between 0 and 12 volts? I am using an old analog voltmeter, nothing fancy.

Also, could a soiders gun be getting the transistor and resistor to hot to function properly. I try to be fast and possibly not burn the things, but could that be causing some troubles?

Thanks,
Bill

z28bill

I just got it to work!!!

Turns out my 12 volt supply was not always 12 volts. I had been using the F terminal on the ALDL connector. However, I found out that when a resistor is between A and B, you no longer will get 12 volts from F. Now I use the cig. lighter and it works!!!

Now when I use WinALDL at 4800 buad, and have true 12 volts going to the interface, it works.

If you guys need help with your setup, let me know. I feel like I troubleshooted mine to death. Just keep in mind that it is probably the cable, not the software.

Thanks for all the help,
Bill

Momar

z28bill:Good work.

jmd: I have an 85 lg4. If I wanted to convert to the newer computer, then what would I have to do? Would I have to change the distributer? Would the computer just plug in to my existing harness.

Thanks

Ben

JoBy

z28bill,

It will work in the next release ... ( soon )

I sent you the beta with 4800 baud to test ... The released version does not have that yet ...

If the cable I made works or not depends on 12V supply on pin 4 on the laptop. Using 12V from the lighter should always work, but it is more to plug in ...

Great that you figured out what the problem was!

Momar

So does that mean that with the newer lg4 computers they can run at 4800 instead of 160? Also if anyone else knows much about converting to the newer computer and what is required to do so I would really appreciate the information.

Ben

JoBy

Momar,

No, but it is a bit confusing ...

A short description ...

An standard PC serial port first reads a start bit, then 8 data bits and finally a stop bit. When this is done the PC has received one byte and it is waiting for the start bit in the next byte.

The 160 baud ALDL data format is a bit differnt. There you have one start bit, one data bit and then one stop bit. You have one start and one stop bit for every bit you read, not for every byte.

A 160 baud ALDL bit and a 2400 baud PC byte is a pretty good match. The PC will read one byte for every bit the the ECM transmitts. The the program has to assemble all the bits to bytes.

The carbed ECM's also use 160 baud but wiht a different timing that matches 4800 baud better.

You can read all about it here:

http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/a.../160serial.htm

Momar

I glanced through that and will read it in more detail later when I am at home. What is the most amount of readings per second (or seconds per reading if it is too slow lol) you can get with one of these do you know?

Thanks

Ben

JoBy

It is about one sample every second.

Every byte has a start bit ( 9 bits per byte )
A package is 20 data bytes and a synk byte.

21*9=189 bits per package.

160 bits per second.

189/160 = 1.18

1.18 seconds for a 20 byte package

Momar

Ok, will my 85 lg4 be supported when this is done or will it still only be a partially works kind of situation? Thanks for the help.

Ben

Momar

JoBy: I was wondering, you say there is 20 data bytes in a package. I was wondering if this is a set amount or if you could make software to make it so you only read certain outputs but read the ones you do faster. Well I can answer my own question after asking it I believe. I guess that would only be the case if the serial connection was the limiting factor right, but since it is the aldl the laptop probably cant change what the ecm is sending to the aldl. Oh well. Thanks

Ben

JoBy

Momar,

It might be supported in the next relese. I wanted to release what I had finished already ( ver 1.08a ). Now you can select 4800 baud and get data anyway.

http://winaldl.webhop.net

Using less bytes would actually work. On the my Corvette the ALDL data stream provides the digital dash with MPG information. In normal mode the ECM transmits only 5 bytes but at a much higher rate. When you put the 10k resistor in place it starts transmiting 20 bytes and the MPG readout stops working.

I think that the list of variables to send, and how many to send, is defined in the calibration PROM. It should be possible to change. If you do, then it would not match the data WinALDL expects.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Ben, it should be plug-n-play, per documentation from the ZZ4 swap kit (which I have ~somewhere...)

Of course if I get inspired, I could toss an 83 or my 86 SS ecm into my 87... the reverse should work for you.