Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
#1
Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
I have been spending quite a bit of time trying to find info and pics of non distributor small block Chevy engines with the crank trigger setup with little success. I know they require an LS type ECM (PCM) but I have no clue which ECM (PCM) to use. I'm sure my 7730 ECM won't work. I have seen the 4x trigger wheel sandwiched between the balancer and pulley and the 58x trigger wheel inside the timing cover. Which is better? I have seen several MSD and Holley one coil per plug setups with the distributor without the cap for timing only. Will any of this work with our third gen tpi stuff or with minirams? I know it makes drivability better and quicker response time like an LS engine. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm thinking of going this route sometime in the future.
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
The early NorthStar DIS setup with the proper trigger wheel will work with the stock ECM. Be prepared to change some calibration parameters.
RBob.
RBob.
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Keep in mind that you still have to have the lower half of a distributor to drive the oil pump.
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Anesthis and I both have "distributor-less" ignitions. I covered how I did mine extensively (almost as a step-by-step how-to) in my build thread. MegaSquirt is what we used and I believe that we are both happy with our choices. The LS PCM while being more popular on this site is not as popular as the MegaSquirt route. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. It is not hard to do, the work is in the research and putting the system together to work properly.
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Anesthis and I both have "distributor-less" ignitions. I covered how I did mine extensively (almost as a step-by-step how-to) in my build thread. MegaSquirt is what we used and I believe that we are both happy with our choices. The LS PCM while being more popular on this site is not as popular as the MegaSquirt route. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. It is not hard to do, the work is in the research and putting the system together to work properly.
Your stuff is way cleaner and better looking than mine though!
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
There is a million ways to do this. Most of the aftermarket management systems support nearly every trigger combination you can think of. I like MS and I've been using it since around 2009/2010. I'm using a 36 tooth trigger and NO cam sensor so I'm wasted spark.
I would advise you to get a oil pump drive for this purpose. I have the mallory one. I don't like the idea of modifying an old distributor, which I did do originally.
I welded the 36-1 to the back of my stock crank pulley, and the bracket bolts to the block near the fuel pump area. I'm using an EDIS ignition box. It's cool because it uses 2 wires to talk to the ECU, and it drives the coils directly.
-- Joe
I would advise you to get a oil pump drive for this purpose. I have the mallory one. I don't like the idea of modifying an old distributor, which I did do originally.
I welded the 36-1 to the back of my stock crank pulley, and the bracket bolts to the block near the fuel pump area. I'm using an EDIS ignition box. It's cool because it uses 2 wires to talk to the ECU, and it drives the coils directly.
-- Joe
#12
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Yeah many ways to do it.
Ls1 411 pcm with efi connection 24x ring sandwich between timing gear and balancer behind a vortec cover and their 1xcam distributors for oil pump drive and cam signal. I ran this with success until my ring keyway opened up. I didnt run a balancer crank bolt and my guess is the balancer worked forward some to allow ring to start shifting and throw timing off. Made for difficult starts but ran good once started lol.
If aftermarket ecm like holley you can run a variety of crank triggers bolted to the balancer. 60-2, 36-1, 4x msd, etc. holley has their own DIS system. I just like the 36-1 wheel since its thick and sturdy. Efi connection 1x cam signal distributor. Lsx coils. Works great as well. I run the 36-1 on my bbc and the holley smart coils
Ls1 411 pcm with efi connection 24x ring sandwich between timing gear and balancer behind a vortec cover and their 1xcam distributors for oil pump drive and cam signal. I ran this with success until my ring keyway opened up. I didnt run a balancer crank bolt and my guess is the balancer worked forward some to allow ring to start shifting and throw timing off. Made for difficult starts but ran good once started lol.
If aftermarket ecm like holley you can run a variety of crank triggers bolted to the balancer. 60-2, 36-1, 4x msd, etc. holley has their own DIS system. I just like the 36-1 wheel since its thick and sturdy. Efi connection 1x cam signal distributor. Lsx coils. Works great as well. I run the 36-1 on my bbc and the holley smart coils
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Yeah many ways to do it.
Ls1 411 pcm with efi connection 24x ring sandwich between timing gear and balancer behind a vortec cover and their 1xcam distributors for oil pump drive and cam signal. I ran this with success until my ring keyway opened up. I didnt run a balancer crank bolt and my guess is the balancer worked forward some to allow ring to start shifting and throw timing off. Made for difficult starts but ran good once started lol.
If aftermarket ecm like holley you can run a variety of crank triggers bolted to the balancer. 60-2, 36-1, 4x msd, etc. holley has their own DIS system. I just like the 36-1 wheel since its thick and sturdy. Efi connection 1x cam signal distributor. Lsx coils. Works great as well. I run the 36-1 on my bbc and the holley smart coils
Ls1 411 pcm with efi connection 24x ring sandwich between timing gear and balancer behind a vortec cover and their 1xcam distributors for oil pump drive and cam signal. I ran this with success until my ring keyway opened up. I didnt run a balancer crank bolt and my guess is the balancer worked forward some to allow ring to start shifting and throw timing off. Made for difficult starts but ran good once started lol.
If aftermarket ecm like holley you can run a variety of crank triggers bolted to the balancer. 60-2, 36-1, 4x msd, etc. holley has their own DIS system. I just like the 36-1 wheel since its thick and sturdy. Efi connection 1x cam signal distributor. Lsx coils. Works great as well. I run the 36-1 on my bbc and the holley smart coils
The 1x cam dizzy takes two revolutions until it finds TDC, does that make for hard starts or does it start wasted spark/batch and switch to sequential ?
What makes a really nice cam sensor is the optispark.. It sends a signal identifying each cylinder, but obviously requires a lot of ECU processing.
-- Joe
#14
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Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Smart coils are awesome for boost guys. Waste for na guys or even mild boost guys
no issues with the 1x. Starts great. Just like an ls1 car. 36-1 crank has better resolution than the ls 24x. Cam sensor being 1x doesnt seem to matter. I’m not sure how the logic is programmed but believe it stays sequential and between the two sensors knows what cylinders are ready to fire
no issues with the 1x. Starts great. Just like an ls1 car. 36-1 crank has better resolution than the ls 24x. Cam sensor being 1x doesnt seem to matter. I’m not sure how the logic is programmed but believe it stays sequential and between the two sensors knows what cylinders are ready to fire
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Smart coils are awesome for boost guys. Waste for na guys or even mild boost guys
no issues with the 1x. Starts great. Just like an ls1 car. 36-1 crank has better resolution than the ls 24x. Cam sensor being 1x doesnt seem to matter. I’m not sure how the logic is programmed but believe it stays sequential and between the two sensors knows what cylinders are ready to fire
no issues with the 1x. Starts great. Just like an ls1 car. 36-1 crank has better resolution than the ls 24x. Cam sensor being 1x doesnt seem to matter. I’m not sure how the logic is programmed but believe it stays sequential and between the two sensors knows what cylinders are ready to fire
I know the real new OE stuff knows which cyl fired last on shutdown.. That's cool.
-- Joe
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Bill Chase (03-31-2022)
#16
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Smart coils are awesome for boost guys. Waste for na guys or even mild boost guys
no issues with the 1x. Starts great. Just like an ls1 car. 36-1 crank has better resolution than the ls 24x. Cam sensor being 1x doesnt seem to matter. I’m not sure how the logic is programmed but believe it stays sequential and between the two sensors knows what cylinders are ready to fire
no issues with the 1x. Starts great. Just like an ls1 car. 36-1 crank has better resolution than the ls 24x. Cam sensor being 1x doesnt seem to matter. I’m not sure how the logic is programmed but believe it stays sequential and between the two sensors knows what cylinders are ready to fire
I'd love to be able to use the stock l31 reluctor and sensor, and stock vortec dizzy for cam sync, but again there is zero info on the Holley forums, or here on anyone doing that.
#17
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
I mean, why not stay with the 4x signal if your ecu can handle it? Msd 4x flying magnet is the standard by which others have been judged for over 30 years, and even with the LS once power gets real many go back to the good ole msd 4x. What am I missing here, has 24x just became a fad for the sbc crowd? I understand it's benefits for a daily driver that spends 95% of it's life at idle to 3500 rpm. And when using a 411 ecu or newer it makes sense to use what the ecu wants
Guess I'd rather not spend 400-600 on a msd or Holley 36x with hall effect sensor if the stock parts will work with the Holley? If the only downside is slightly less resolution at low rpm I can live with that, I mean you step on the peddle, the trans downshifts and you're already at 3500 rpm when boost starts coming on hard right?
So why hasn't anyone used the l31 vortec parts with the Holley system? There is zero mention of it I'm Holley literature, I have read it front to back ten times. Searched for all the odd combos people have put together, and Nobody, I mean NOBODY, has used the stock reluctor and trigger for anything other than a 411 ecu, and most of them just go to a 24x setup to get cnp, maf, and tuning options available with that system, along with trans control.
Guess I'd rather not spend 400-600 on a msd or Holley 36x with hall effect sensor if the stock parts will work with the Holley? If the only downside is slightly less resolution at low rpm I can live with that, I mean you step on the peddle, the trans downshifts and you're already at 3500 rpm when boost starts coming on hard right?
So why hasn't anyone used the l31 vortec parts with the Holley system? There is zero mention of it I'm Holley literature, I have read it front to back ten times. Searched for all the odd combos people have put together, and Nobody, I mean NOBODY, has used the stock reluctor and trigger for anything other than a 411 ecu, and most of them just go to a 24x setup to get cnp, maf, and tuning options available with that system, along with trans control.
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
I mean, why not stay with the 4x signal if your ecu can handle it? Msd 4x flying magnet is the standard by which others have been judged for over 30 years, and even with the LS once power gets real many go back to the good ole msd 4x. What am I missing here, has 24x just became a fad for the sbc crowd? I understand it's benefits for a daily driver that spends 95% of it's life at idle to 3500 rpm. And when using a 411 ecu or newer it makes sense to use what the ecu wants
Guess I'd rather not spend 400-600 on a msd or Holley 36x with hall effect sensor if the stock parts will work with the Holley? If the only downside is slightly less resolution at low rpm I can live with that, I mean you step on the peddle, the trans downshifts and you're already at 3500 rpm when boost starts coming on hard right?
So why hasn't anyone used the l31 vortec parts with the Holley system? There is zero mention of it I'm Holley literature, I have read it front to back ten times. Searched for all the odd combos people have put together, and Nobody, I mean NOBODY, has used the stock reluctor and trigger for anything other than a 411 ecu, and most of them just go to a 24x setup to get cnp, maf, and tuning options available with that system, along with trans control.
Guess I'd rather not spend 400-600 on a msd or Holley 36x with hall effect sensor if the stock parts will work with the Holley? If the only downside is slightly less resolution at low rpm I can live with that, I mean you step on the peddle, the trans downshifts and you're already at 3500 rpm when boost starts coming on hard right?
So why hasn't anyone used the l31 vortec parts with the Holley system? There is zero mention of it I'm Holley literature, I have read it front to back ten times. Searched for all the odd combos people have put together, and Nobody, I mean NOBODY, has used the stock reluctor and trigger for anything other than a 411 ecu, and most of them just go to a 24x setup to get cnp, maf, and tuning options available with that system, along with trans control.
They are not exactly using a vortec reluctor, but rather one machined especially for the LT1/SBC: https://www.eficonnection.com/home/p...shaft-reluctor
I can't remember exactly why you can't use the vortec on dimensionally, but $75 is cheap.
-- Joe
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Bill Chase (03-31-2022)
#19
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
A lot of guys are using 4x with MS and other aftermarket. Same as a dizzy. In fact, it's popular on the LT1 groups. I thought about it on my LT1 car but then you have to use a single roller timing chain.
They are not exactly using a vortec reluctor, but rather one machined especially for the LT1/SBC: https://www.eficonnection.com/home/p...shaft-reluctor
I can't remember exactly why you can't use the vortec on dimensionally, but $75 is cheap.
-- Joe
They are not exactly using a vortec reluctor, but rather one machined especially for the LT1/SBC: https://www.eficonnection.com/home/p...shaft-reluctor
I can't remember exactly why you can't use the vortec on dimensionally, but $75 is cheap.
-- Joe
#20
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
#21
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Yes, the stock reluctor is 4x, so two revolutions give you 8x, so it can be used in place of a distributor pickup.
You need to use the 96-97 timing cover for LT1 which has the casting for the crank trigger. Makes for a nice vortec-like factory finish.
Then the guys have two options:
1) Use the factory optispark as just a distributor, which will handle the firing order, or
2) Run a cam sensor in place of the optispark with to find TDC for coil packs.
-- Joe
-- Joe
You need to use the 96-97 timing cover for LT1 which has the casting for the crank trigger. Makes for a nice vortec-like factory finish.
Then the guys have two options:
1) Use the factory optispark as just a distributor, which will handle the firing order, or
2) Run a cam sensor in place of the optispark with to find TDC for coil packs.
-- Joe
-- Joe
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Bill Chase (04-15-2022)
#22
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Upon further investigation it seems the 58x can be ran in untimed sequential mode in the event of a cam sensor failure with just a simple settings change on the Holley ECU. So I purchased the msd 85141 can sync, and efi connection 24x reluctor prior to knowing that. When it arrives I'll return it and pay for the 58x reluctor. Could've used the stock vortec distributor but with the blanking cap it is bulky, the msd is smaller. Picked up a pair of truck heat sync coil packs. Using the Holley black cast aluminum vortec cover and smp sensor. So the only electric part that isn't OEM will be the cam sync. Making a simple settings change and not having to carry a backup proprietary sensor =winning. 🤣
#23
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
Upon further investigation it seems the 58x can be ran in untimed sequential mode in the event of a cam sensor failure with just a simple settings change on the Holley ECU. So I purchased the msd 85141 can sync, and efi connection 24x reluctor prior to knowing that. When it arrives I'll return it and pay for the 58x reluctor. Could've used the stock vortec distributor but with the blanking cap it is bulky, the msd is smaller. Picked up a pair of truck heat sync coil packs. Using the Holley black cast aluminum vortec cover and smp sensor. So the only electric part that isn't OEM will be the cam sync. Making a simple settings change and not having to carry a backup proprietary sensor =winning. 🤣
What is "untimed sequential" ?
-- Joe
#24
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
yes vortec cover and standard motor products replacement crank sensor. untimed sequential mode still fires the injectors in sequence based on firing order, but has no way to identify the number 1 cylinder without the cam sync so it is untimed sequential operation. still better than batch fired, especially if using big injectors and trying to get a decent idle.
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
yes vortec cover and standard motor products replacement crank sensor. untimed sequential mode still fires the injectors in sequence based on firing order, but has no way to identify the number 1 cylinder without the cam sync so it is untimed sequential operation. still better than batch fired, especially if using big injectors and trying to get a decent idle.
On some of the aftermarket stuff you can do alternating fire, and specify how many times to fire during a cycle.
I'm curious though, if you are individually firing each injector, but don't know what cylinder you are on, what's the benefit over firing the whole bank ?
-- Joe
#26
Re: Distributorless ignition with crank trigger
I'm not familiar with that term.
On some of the aftermarket stuff you can do alternating fire, and specify how many times to fire during a cycle.
I'm curious though, if you are individually firing each injector, but don't know what cylinder you are on, what's the benefit over firing the whole bank ?
-- Joe
On some of the aftermarket stuff you can do alternating fire, and specify how many times to fire during a cycle.
I'm curious though, if you are individually firing each injector, but don't know what cylinder you are on, what's the benefit over firing the whole bank ?
-- Joe
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