efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Just an FYI. Some on here keep insisting that the Accel DFI is "old" technology. I've state many times that most of all the "new" features on some of the other systems have been in the Gen 7 for years.

But for the second time in 3 years, Accel DFI is No. 1 at the latest EMC. And they were well represented in the rest of the field as well, they were right there against the "newer" systems.

So much for old technology huh?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If you want to push DFI why don't you post screen shots illustrating the differences between it and other systems and what you feel is superior?

You can show people how to create fuel maps, auto tune, CAN support, programmable GPIO, etc.

Also flex fuel too. As these stations have been popping up lots of us like the idea of flex fuel sensors on the fuel rail, and a computer that can calculate both the fuel delivery and spark advance, boost control, etc based on the alcohol content (and appropriate octane) of the fuel mixture prior to injection.



-- Joe

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I'm really not here to "push" the Accel stuff. Just to dispell some of the internet lies.
The latest FAST ad mentions theirs has force timing (Accel's had that since '02), and various temp cals that Accels' had since '04. There are others as well.

It won't do flex fuel, you know that. But that's already in the next version. While admittedly that would be nice, I get very little call for that, very little.
But what it will do is drive better than anything in it's class. It has more transient fueling tables than anything in this price range. One step nitrous tables, patented injector firing and 16 channel datalogging with the wideband set up to name a few. And it still holds 3 or 4 patents. And it obviously allows you to be able to make hp as well. Just look at the score it posted in the latest EMC challenge.

Just because others (FAST, Holley etc) advertise more doesn't mean they're a better/more capable system.

I'll try to post some screen shots or you can always go to the website and download the software and view them for yourselves.

Thanks.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well honestly if you want people to take your word for it you should show them with configuration examples of the functionality you claim exists and is better.

I didn't know what the heck you meant by "Force ignition timing", and then I googled and found the Accel documentation on the feature. Setting the initial reference angle, and comparing it with a timing light is like step one after firing a new engine on any EFI. That is an expected functionality, not a feature. hah.

No I don't. I don't use Accel. I've seen it maybe once in my life.

Perhaps you can elaborate on that. Not everyone understands the benefits of AE trasient fueling between normal cell VE tables. Most systems use a blend of MAP and TPS input, while OEM stuff adds VSS. How does DFI do it?


Let's step through this. Nitrous tables, check. Patented injector firing? I couldn't find the actual patent with a google search. Could you elaborate on the technical aspect of this? I'm curious what the major difference is in the way the injectors fire vs other EFI systems. I imagine this would only be beneficial on guys with cam &crank sensors. Does the Accel take input of valve timing events to better enhance it's SFI ability?

You've got me at 16 channel datalogging. I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean by that. Do you mean it can log 16 separate things? When I think of a channel I think of a single communication stream. Usually when I'm comparing data logging I'm concerned with the number of items I can log (perhaps channels Accel speak), and most importantly the update or "frame" rate.

I don't know what is better with that stuff. I like Holley's interface on the newer stuff, but can't quite comment on it's feature list. The biggest problem with accel from what I have seen is the interface just looks ugly and layout screams 1980s atari.

Again, perhaps you can explain some of these features more technically and provide some screen shots so people realize your speaking of the products ability and not your profit margin.

-- Joe

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

You should be able to download the software right from their site. It's being revamped as we speak. New additions daily.
http://prestoliteweb.com/accel/ACCELDFI.aspx

So if it's not on Google it doesn't exist? That's the problem with the net.

Force timing - allows you to hold timing for verification without having to change the spark map. FAST just announced this as a "new Feature" on the latest XFI 2.0.
Transient fueling tables equal driveability. Accel has eight, most of the rest have 4. Accel does it with TPS ROC, TPS ROC modifier, TAU, thresholds, MAP and Acceleration modifiers.

Nitrous table, plug in the pill size and bottle pressure it'll do a fuel map for you. And it'll be real close.
Patented injector firing, dude it's pat en ted, no one knows, only the lead engineer at Accel.
And I guess you're the only one that has never heard of datalogging described by how many channels/things can be done at once. Yes 16 at once.

I know you're an MS guy and you're busting my *****. I'm trying to not take up a lot of space here. The downloads should help answer most all your questions.

If not give me a shout, happy to help.

bestracing

I do have a question about this aspect. Does adding/activating channels change the frame rate speed?

Raynmaker

He wasn't busting your *****, just trying to get you to justify your first post. Simply put, please support your bragging.

We all like learning new things from people that are not the sales brochure. We can all read that (ty for the link) but we want to know how you use it, how you set up yours and how it differed from what you had previously. Like a product review with real world application, not a sales pitch.

Anesthes has some good questions. If you can answer some of them you might get others interested in your passion for this product.

Raynmaker

Oh, and saying he couldn't find it on Google simply means Post A Link (support your claim) so we can read it.

Remember, some of us are complete noobs to fuel injection and bearly know the difference from tbi and mpi. We are on this forum to learn from others what will be the best system for your use. Your review could make a great impact on what people buy and learn.

So my questions (noobish as they may be).
What is it?
How is it different from stock, ebl, holley etc
Cost? Benefits?
And most important
How hard to install and use?

Thanks

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thank you. I will.

No it means I couldn't find it, so link me.

Yes, I know. It's the reference angle, bias, etc. I never heard it called "force timing" before. My MS has the same feature, with the big digital black box so I can hold it while verifying with a gun, then adjust if needed.

So DFI does it with TPS and MAP input, and uses 8 tables for source data to blend the pw in and out of the ve table(s).

You can look up patents silly. I wanted to look up the number and description, not a copy of the source code.

Perhaps. 16 is probably a decent amount for gauge view, but for actual "logging" for detailed output it might be limiting. Even the stock stuff, like $8D for example in datamaster outputs 34 "channels" as you call it (different items) on the main screen, and has a handful more for full log.

I moved on to MS, but I'll use whatever works. I'm not busting your ***** to be a jerk, I'm asking you to provide technical information because we're a technical site and that is how we roll here. If your just going to post fluff you might want to do it over in one of the Corvette sites where guys like pretty and shiny but don't care about how it works.

-- Joe

Dominic Sorresso

Not all of us Joe. Some of us cut our tuning teeth on Corvettes. Working on an 84 TBI motor really helped me w understanding how to tune a DOHC 32V LT-5.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Dominic,

We both know what group of people I'm talking about.

-- Joe

Dominic Sorresso

Yes we do! This past May I was asked to give a presentation on the topic of tuning during the C4/ZR-1 Gathering at the NCM in Bowling Green. Had quite a few come up to me afterwards and tell me it was a great presentation but went "way over my head". Gordon Killebrew came over to ask me a few questions too. I can just imagine if RBob showed up!

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Lol, you mean shiny and pretty and waxed and they just look at them in the garage like almost all my corvette owner friend who like to tell me how much they dont put miles on there vettes. Lol thats so funny.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

It is old technology. But it works so what is the point of your post? Ive seen well runing tpis woth extensive mods running factory ecm.Same goes for newer Ls7s.Like a previous poster noted the interface need updating. It does look old and atari like. Holleys and Fasts are more user friendly. Accels is not. You have said and dealers will tell you it is better to bring them to authorized dealers for tuning. Whatever floats your boat but no system is a do all for all applications. As usual some limks do not work and havnt worked for over 6 months on prestolites site: http://prestoliteweb.com/accel/ACCELDFI/ACCELDFI.aspx
and

http://prestoliteperformance.com/acceldfi.html

Like ive said before, compared to fasts and holleys site. Accels is **** poor in terms of information. Basically you call them because there is no info on the site and they give you the nearest dealers # to call and thats how that goes.Not a big deal if your a hands off type of guy who pays everyone to work on your car. I have personally seen the system on a twin turbo 355. Works well Im sure, but to totally disregard every system out there with nothing but the usual fluff with no links or screen shots or anythingto show why its better. Cmon...
are we going to go down this road again?Difference between me and you, I dont make money selling efi, especially holley, just user experience. You make a living off it, selling Accel. So tell us all again why you push that system so much around here?

Dominic Sorresso

I called Accel to ask if they has information on the BAT V compensation for PW on their injectors. The customer service rep on the phone didn't know what I was talking about. And their is nothing listed on their website unlike Bosch. As I understand it Lucas makes the Accel injectors.

Raynmaker

Lucas? As in the Prince of darkness, Lucas? eeeeeeek.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I think lucas does. But if you have any tech questions on injectors they usually refer you to kinsler. They did to me. Kind of weird you call up for info and they give you a number to someone else from another company.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

My thoughts exactly Joe, this instruction PDF delves into Accel DFI injector firing...;

http://www.project33.com/media/DFI_G...structions.pdf

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thanks, I read through it (sequential fire with camshaft valve timing pg 51 onward). I can't comment about how many aftermarket systems support this, I do know my megasquirt does in sequential mode (which I'm not running) so I'd assume most of the more expensive systems would as well.

Considering the fact that efiguy has failed to respond back with any technical insight, I guess we can just assume he's just marketing. Perhaps he will be willing to become a site sponsor if he would like to push his products instead of actually contributing technically.

-- Joe

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I'll try to answer as many of the questions as possible.

First of all I don't hover this site, sorry if I didn't respond right away. However if I was trying to sell something then I would hover, but I'm not necessarily so I don't.

Admittedly the support has not been what it needs to be. That's the reason the site is being redone. The new site will have phone numbers for call centers. These are qualified Accel dealers that will lend a hand to those in need of info etc. I'm applying to do the same.

But every manufacturer has some flaws as mentioned. I'll gladly send any of you an email address to a gentleman I'm helping now. He has a 434 SBC with a "self learning" FAST XFI 2.0, Runs like **** and FAST has been no help, so much for the FAST support being 'better". And he's not the first. I've posted links to other sites listing guys I've helped as well, with other systems that offered little to no help. And recently my dyno guy had someone who installed 2 Holley HP EFI's on his BBC powered boat. Holley told him it would be a problem for him to have both ECU's under the cowling of his engine compartment. The software had already locked up multiple times on the dyno and HOLLEY said that may continue unless he put them way out of the way, in a whole different part of the boat. And they had no other solutions.

And the more I get into the FAST system the more I think their software sucks. i.e. when you press FI on theirs it just takes you to the whole help table, not specific to the item your asking help for. You then have to scroll thru everything to find what it is you're looking for. The Accel takes you right to an explanation for the table you're inquiring about. I guess to some degree it's all what you're used to.

I'll try to look up the patent numbers.

Yes the more data(channels) you record the smaller the sampling rate per channel. But it has enough capacity to do 16 channels 20x a second.

I'm not sure at this time that Lucas in making the Accel injector. At one time it was Delphi, I'll check.

Yes it uses MAP and TPS as well as modifiers to control transient fueling.

I've worked with FAST, some Holley and BS3 and it always seems the Accel will drive better. Plus it does have more starting fuel tables as well, i.e. Prestart fuel, that's in between cranking and running as well as after start tables. The Accel has borrowed a lot from OEM, that's one of the reasons I like it so well. Accel used to be located literally right down the street from GM high performance in Wixom Michigan. They did a lot of R&D together for years.

The Accel has gotten a bad wrap for a long time. Maybe it was justified, maybe not. All I know is the guy with the 625hp/434 spent a bunch of money on a "tuner" and system, spent 8 hours on a chassis dyno and again it still ran like **** around town. I just sent him another cal that I did based on his info. He called and said it's night and day better, in fact he scared the hell out of his wife while datalogging. And I did it from my rocking chair. My point? Any system in the hands of a lousy tuner will suck. But the better systems in the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing will be that much better.

I'll try to post more info as the site is finished. Thanks.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

They all do.

So what is wrong with it? Is it a fuel problem or a spark problem? Or a mechanical problem?

So it's a 20hz sample rate with only 16 "channels". I find it interesting that the sample rate changes with the number of items being transmitted but it's probably due to low processing power on the unit. The older megasquirts only have a 60hz sample rate. The default view is like 27 "channels" with a bunch hidden, but you can log all at once if you so desire. I hear the MSIII had a 333hz log rate which is just absurd but the processor is so much faster.


Crank fuel, startup fuel, etc is fairly common on the OE stuff, and MS. I don't know about FAST but I'd assume it would be. Although the old Holley system I had from the 90s didn't, it was fairly basic.

Don't take this the wrong way but, what do you mean by this? Do you mean you will answer our technical questions once Accel publishes answers for you? I was under the impression you were an expert with this system and knew it inside and out.

-- Joe

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I bet he can tell you how much the profit margin is off the sale of one real quick

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

When it comes to tuning and initial setup I'm one of the best.
However I need to find out who makes the injectors as well as more info on the patents don't I? And I'm sure you will have more questions that I will do my best to answer.

Tunedperformance- Again I don't hover on this site, sorry I didn't answer within a couple of minutes. I was asked to post here from someone who needed help a couple years back.

Thank you for your comments.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't question your ability to use the software and tune a system. I'd just prefer you back up the claims that you feel it's the best system.

Personally, I don't care what the "best" is. My decision was based on functionality and cost, which is why I stopped doing the OEM stuff and switched to Megasquirt. I don't doubt the higher end commercial stuff has more functionality in many areas, but for what I need I found that MS came a heck of a long way cloning the majority of the OEM functionality (other than a throttle follower) that I desired, while giving me features I hadn't even dreamed of.

The lack of a VSS and throttle follower is an issue, but it's something I can reasonably code up to be "good enough" for my needs, which is mainly a stall saver and DFCO. the MS-III does have that functionality but I chose not to purchase an MS-III.

Does accel take in a VSS input? Theres a lot of other stuff that I have no use for since my car doesn't have wheel sensors/abs, but I know the newer MS-III stuff does 4 wheel traction control. Does accel get into that or ?

My MS was about $310, and the software like another $100 so for that price it seems to do everything I want, and mirror the functionality of most systems. It's not without quirks however.

-- Joe

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

So 434 smallblock chevy runs like **** because it has a fast system on it? That after checking everything mechanical and electrical is the conclusion? Im sure you have a Thruster lying around to throw on there to correct this problem as it is most likly the fact the ecu is not an Accel one. I cannot temember when starting a new combo would I run into small vacume leaks, loose tpi tb cover bolts, forgotton hoses , crossed wires, and god forbid a motor not put together correctly. Hard to believe its a simple ecu change. So many variables and if it is the ecu for some unknown reason replace ot or get a new system.
Trying to get info out of an accel is like pulling teeth, nothing on the web, only way youll get any concrete info is if your paying the piper. Anyone can dispute this call up accel and ask away. They will refer you to you local most dealer.

Raynmaker

And the longer we discuss this guys lack of knowledge or the ability to share that knowledge, the longer the thread title is at the top. Which equates to free advertising.

So far I have learned from this thread: All systems work and have their issues. This has not justified the false claim of the title. And there were so many good questions that could have made people take note of the system. But they have been ignored, at least until the promotional site is up for him to share the link! lol

I suggest this thread go bye bye.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

o.K. did you even read my post? I never said it was because it had a FAST on it. What I said was it's a "self learning" that didn't "self learn" and that the tuner still needs to know certain parameters even though they don't tell you that. This tuner didn't, plain and simple.

Joe, Accel does not have VSS, but it does have a throttle follower. You're right, they have chosen not to go in that direction.

Raynmaker, what questions have I avoided? The ones that I didn't answer I said I will make every effort to answer correctly.
And if you're calling an Accel dealer and they're charging you for info then you need to contact Elie Nahed at Accel and let him know that. That's the reason for the call centers.

Or did this happen years ago and you're still holding a grudge?

Raynmaker

This!! Plain and simple.

Why is it different?
How was it to setup on your vehicle?
What was better about the setup and interface?
Why do you like it?

I don't care about patents or stats from a sales site. I would like to know hands on use. You said one system didn't work but this one did, why? What settings allowed this system to work better?

Not trying to be mean just want more practical info. Calling the company will only get me a sales pitch.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

No grudge at all, funny you seem to always be going back to that because you have nothing else to back up your claims. Here is all you posts here in a nutshell: Accel Dfi is hands down the best system out there, blows all the other systems out of the water. Dont ask me how I know this I just do. Btw Im an Accel dealer, but Im not partial to Accel. Anywaysss..... Seems like the grudge you have is against me, because everytime I call you out as a dealer who pushes accel here, you get nasty. You sell Accell , of course its the best. You think a Gm salesman is going to push Fords on the GM lot? God think about how you are making yourself look. Never any data, nothing concrete, just your word, the word of the guy who who sells it.

Search his user name and you will see all his posts end up the same way. Ridiculous already. Either contribute something to this forum or leave. Sick of this smoke and mirror advertising for accel.

Im sure accel is great, but some here are still waiting on info a dealer/ installer should have at his fingertips. Well?

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Umm maybe you need to reread your own post. All Fast 2.0xfis are listed as sefl learning. You never said the guy tuned just using this feature. You just said he has a Xfi 2.0 " Self learning" system that runs like ****. All 2.0 Xfi are listed as self tuning.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

How do you know that? Have you called lately?

I'll say it one more time. My point here was to inform those who believe that the Accel Gen 7 is old technology that they may be wrong.
I pointed out that the self learning stuff isn't always self learning, whether it's a FAST system or not, they all work on the same principle.

The setup on the Accel is easy imo. No offset needs to be entered, the VE calculator has always gotten my applicatiions started and running. When you download the software there are dozen of different cals to access for your application. And the forced timing issue is quick.

I'm not trying to sell anything here, again I just wanted to point out that the Gen 7 isn't outdated and will run with the best out there. Depending on the applcation I will always recommend the best system for it, sometimes that's not an Accel but maybe a FAST or BS3 or similar. But I always ask if someone is really going to drive the car and if so then the best bang for the buck imo is the Accel.

No matter what I say I seem to have to repeat myself over and over.
If someone has a system and needs help, or if you know of anyone that needs help please contact me directly. I will do everything I can to assist in tuning setup etc. Do a search on EFI 101 and lateralG, type in supremeefi or cutlassefi. You'll see I've helped many, for free as well.

Otherwise I'm done here. Thank you.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I thought that what this forum is for helping others for free

Raynmaker

Huh! Don't understand why my questions are so difficult. And I got lost when we went from being "the best" to "run with the best". :shrug:

I personally went with the EBL system. I chose this system for my off the wall idea of putting efi on a 40 year old 4 banger. I also picked it because I can use the same software and mask for tuning my jeep, therefore only learning one system.
So far it works for my application. I still have many bugs to figure out tho. Once I get the hang of it I would be happy to share my experience with others, for free. lol

Tada! A mini review. I think I broke a sweat.