NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I have the MS II Extra setup( MS2/Extra release 3.1.1) and used some of the factory wiring to get it into my 87 Iroc. Car setup is a 355 TPI with a large Vortech supercharger. I'm using the TPS, IAC, 4 bar MAP, AEM WB, Air intake, and coolant temp sensors. The car will run, but not very well. The main issue I'm having is spark and can't seem to get it timed.


I beleive it has something to do with the GM/DIS bypass. With it on the car will crank and run for 5 seconds. At that point it shuts the entire car off(via removing spark per the red LED on my digital 6 box). It will do this no matter what I try. Well, IF I turn off the GM/DIS bypass it will crank and stay running at least at idle(won't rev well at this point). As SOON as I cycle the ignition off and back on the third light on my MS(builder of the MS said the third light is the light showing timing retard during cranking) turns off and while cranking the motor the MSD box is not getting a signal(red light isn't flashing on it and no spark to the distributor from the MS). The ONLY way for me to get it to start again is to turn the GM/DIS bypass BACK on, cycle the battery switch, and then the third light will be on. Once that is done I can go BACK into tuner studios and turn the GM/DIS back off to get it to crank and run. If the bypass stays on I can cycle the key/power and it keeps all three lights on(although the car won't start), BUT as soon as I do it with the bypass OFF, once the key is cycled I get two lights and the no start condition.

-I have bypassed the MSD box, same results.
-power to the coil wire has been verified
-The ONLY differnce is the white wire from the MS is not signalling to the distributor when it's not cranking.
-I have verified the MS is getting a tach signal even in no start situations as it cuts the fuel pump on during cranking and the tach in tuner studios is moving while cranking.


PLEASE HELP

I'm NOT sure if I linked or uploaded this correctly or not, but attached are my current tune and the two run files. One with it on(run for 5 seconds) and one with it off.


Think you have to right click save as, if it doesn't work can someone help me out with that please?

Tune

http://jonsmithphoto.com/nuffnuffz28...0up%20tune.msq

bypass on
http://jonsmithphoto.com/nuffnuffz28...-16gmheion.msl

bypass off

http://jonsmithphoto.com/nuffnuffz28...c/gmheioff.msl

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Here is a video showing the issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D-Pj...el_video_title

WASyL

well i,m not familiar with Extra code so it is hard for me to find stuff but 10 deg of advance (spark table) on idle is far far to low, try 19-25
what is your base ignition advance with distributor orientation? and did you set that in MS with same value ?
dwell at around 4.0ms is long, very long, i run 1,8-2,5 ms and this is what they advice for our engines

why you use extra code anyway ??

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I had a friend of a friend help me out with the assembly of the box. It is how he assembled it. Honestly I don't know enough about it to sy its a good thing or not in my situation either way.

Base timing is at 10.

Thanks man. I will need a lot of help getting this thing dialed in.

Chris

WASyL

i'll try my best to help you so ask if you will have any problems

best regards

p.s. ask him if it is possible to get back to standard code B&G 2.89 with this box

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

He does not think it would be worth it? Honestly I am at a loss.

Well, verified base is 10 this weekend. It will run fine all day without the brown(B pin in diagram below)



When the third light is not on(the megasquirt) like stated above the car won't crank. Pull the plug on the brown wire and it will start even though the third wire is not lit. That help any?

Also, per the guy that helped me build the box I swapped spark outpuit from inverted to normal and it made NO difference. It still showed 20 degrees at idle either way(correct per MS ignition spark programmed in).


So, when everything is hooked up correctly, as soon as you turn off the key it resets and the third light is now not on the MS and it won't start. Pull the brown wire OR reset the MS to GM Bypass on to get the third light back on, then turn it of, and cycle the key I get one good crank.


I can't start tuning until I have this issue figured out!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

http://www.diyautotune.com/videos/pr...hei/mk-hei.htm

WASyL

Did You wired this reley proprerly?
oh and check my thread on msefi board where i had similar issues:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f...starti+problem

another thing, base timing is one thing and total advance is another, as i see in your config your base and total advance on idle is 10 deg, i use total advance (spark table) of 25, for stock 350 TPI it should be around 19-20

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

As far as the timing, I THINK I may have saved it when I was playing around with the timing tables. I do understad that much. I am looking at the link you posted now and will follow up soon.

Thanks again!

Just read up on this and I do see many similarities. Did you use the GM HEI bypass? If so, is it on or off?

The thing I don't understand is why mine will crank with it on, but turn off after 5 seconds. That is the part that gets me everytime I think I have it figured out.

BUT once the computer resets and the light is "off" it won't start at all. Remove the brown wire and it will.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Looks promising as well. The guy who did my box didn't "think" that would be needed. What does that actually do and what problems is that made to correct? I couldn't find that.

WASyL

HEI By-pass is on and no problems, for me it still looks like there is a problem with wiring on ignition module with relay, where did you took the +12v from ? you say that all 3 LED's lights up, but your config shows that only FIdle and Warmup LED's should be on

i went throu your config once again and some of the settings looks odd to me:
Basic setup menu
Engine constants: Required Fuel should be at around 15,3 not 5,3
Tach input/Ignition settings: Spark Output fot TPI engines is Going High (inverted)
More Ignition Options: Maximum Spark Duration at 1.5 would do a better job form my experience
Fuel VE Table1: it looks very lean in area of idle which is propably at around 33-50 MAP
Ignition Table1: it shows diffrent values then before (wtf?) and it looks like it has proper total advance now
General, lags: Barrometric correction is set to Two Independent sensors - used only if you use two MAP's wired to MS, if one is used should be set to Initial Map Reading
Startup/idle
Cranking Settings: Cranking fuel puls rate - first time i see this setting but i think it should be set to Every Event
Does Your tach works properly when engine start or not ? Where did you get this config and maps (ignition/VE) from ?

remember to chceck every setting seperatly.

sorry for my poor english (and possible mistakes) but i do not live in english spoken country and writing is hard for me
best regards

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Will the car start and run with the bypass wire disconnected at the ICM? Disconnecting the bypass wire will set the ignition to base timing, and would eliminate the ignition system as a problem.

The only hitch to this would be depending on how you have the MSD wired in.

If you have the MSD triggered directly from the MS, then disconnecting the bypass won't do anything for you. If you have the MSD triggered by the ICM, then disconnecting the bypass will still allow the ignition to work.

I would also look at performing the HEI mod, that was cited above. You can find specific information about it in the megamanual.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

[/COLOR]-No need to apologize. You've been of great assistance and I can tell you are doing your very best to help me out as much as possible! I will update this tune and send it over to you to look at asap...

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Yes, the car will run with the brown wire disconnected all day.

My car has the 8-pin distributor

2 pin has 12v on acc and tach signal.

The 4 pin has the black/red stripe is grounded, white is ignition sig from MS and the brown is the 5v bypass wire.

I also have it where I can easily unplug the digital 6 box and that made no differnece as well.


The ignition system I think has been ruled out.

Thanks for your help! I am trying a few things tomorrow night!

WASyL

Nuf you wrote: -I got 12v from the old distributor wiring(factory plug on the old distributor). I do not have a relay. Is that how you ended up fixing your problem?

Well this relay is crucial for most ignition modules!!!! do this circuit with relay then and problem should disapperar

-That does seem very small doesn't it? That would cause spark issues for sure

Works fine for me but mayby it is different for boosted engines

-Hmmm, I'm not sure. The one I have the vacuum line hooked to is inside the box. I will ask the assembler if there is another inside for the second sensor

There is not, second one can be added as external part with extra wiring

-No need to apologize. You've been of great assistance and I can tell you are doing your very best to help me out as much as possible! I will update this tune and send it over to you to look at asap...

I always try to help if i can, and i repeat start with this relay cause it might fix the issue right away

best regards

-So are you saying that when all three lights are on its actually OFF or not working? If so that's when it starts and cuts off after 5 seconds

It means that only ones that lights are working but with your config not all should be lighted

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I was going to start on the relay tonight, but found out some very mportant information!!!

UPDATE:

Most importantly, I found if you crank the car on base only and then try to plug in the brown(bypass wire) it cuts off as soon as it is plugged in! Also, the MS is not advancing timing AT ALL!! It is NEVER running on anything but the base 10*


Brown wire disconnected it will still run great(as it can for no timing) all day. I also set the trigger offset, it was close. I set it per the instructions on the 1977 Nova build. I took the distributor and set it at 10* bypassed. I then locked my advance table at 10*. Strangely the table showed 11*? The trigger offset was at 10* as well. I moved the trigger offset up and down and with that and barely tweaking the distributor I was at 10 on the advance gauge, the timing light, and strangely enough the trigger. For some reason though the trigger offset would not move the commanded timing? I am wondering about that. After that I got the fuel pretty good. The car revs OK(small delay still), AFR is pretty good, but spikes lean on revs(pop through the intake, slightly every now and then). BIG improvement over where I was.

The thing that sucks is, my GM hei/DIS bypass switch light is still messed up.

IF the third light is on and my tunerstudios is set to GM HEI/bypass on, the car starts and runs for 5 seconds and cuts off.

IF you turn it off(bypass) WITHOUT cutting power the car will crank and run fine. BUT the first time you cut power the third light cuts off on the MS and NO spark at all like it always has.

WASyL

it still looks like you need to wire that relay

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Relay made no difference. As soon as it clicks in the car cuts off...

Brown pin B is getting 5 volts as it should, but it kills car when connected. If the GM bypass is OFF it can be connected but then the MS is not controlling timing. I will update with pics of board and wire loactions soon.

Getting VERY FRUSTRATED!

Mongoose

iTrader: (2)

Is there a particular reason you're using the Megasquirt other than it came with the car? Not that I'm overwhelmingly familiar with aftermarket ECUs...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Since the car will run all day without the bypass disconnected it confirms that it is a software set-up issue.

Double check your settings in MS with what is recommened in the megamanual. You may be pulling timeing out when you on't want to based on an initial or base timing setting, or type of trigger, etc.

WASyL

ask your friend how was set MS to read signal form distributor, was it VR sensor or Hall.

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I am in the process of doing that now! I am talking with DIYautotune as well, who is looking atr my MSQ.

Thanks~


I searched and looked to see what I thought would be the easiest and best to work with. It had a factory ECM and 2 extra injectors to fuel it before which was a PAIN in the butt and not efficient.


He was a friend of a friend, but not my friend... His number is now disconnected

WASyL

ok, and did You checked all settings that i told you to chceck ?

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Yes sir. I have them stored and am putting them in today. I will send you my newest msq the next time I'm down there if you would like to review. The next thing I am doing is going to disconnect my injectors, connect pin "b" and turn the engine over and see what timing I get.

Wish me luck

WASyL

then i wish you luck and waiting for effects

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

No change


Here is the current tune... right click save as

http://jonsmithphoto.com/nuffnuffz28...urrentTune.msq


Here is a datalog of when it cuts off...(right click save as)

http://jonsmithphoto.com/nuffnuffz28...%20startup.msl

Here is a video of the MS box lights... You can see the light cut off on the MS then almost immediately the MSD as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ybf7he1Fiw

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Have you done the HEI modification yet?

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I did not, as it didn't seem needed in my case. I have found I am pretty sure my MSD/distributor is wired wrong!


http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...nition.htm#msd



I have the digital 6... My 2 pin connecter on the outside goes right to the box which then goes right to the coil... A NO_NO for MS2 extra

WASyL

so seams problem sloved, do the wiring properly and let us know

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

We will see! I'll keep you updated as soon as I know what is going on.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I updated the wiring via DIYautotune(email correspondance), and well, its worse.

After reading this email from them


"Matt is out today and I'm trying to fill in for him. It looks like you
guys have a long conversation history, and really I don't have the
ability to read through the whole thing right now. However from your
latest reply, it sounds like your MSD box is not wired correctly. Your
MegaSquirt should be hooked up to the 2 wire sensor in your distributor,
and the MSD points input is hooked up to pin 36 on the MegaSquirt. The
MSD set up is covered in detail in the manual. Please compare your
wiring to what the manual shows.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...nition.htm#msd "

So, I talked to another friend of a friend who has been helping me some(since the guy that set up the box is no longer talking to me ) and he talked me into doing it that way and getting rid of the HEI ignitiona module and using the dizzy for only the VR signal

So, we wired the VR to pin 25, - VR to pin 19, and the pin 36 to the white wire of the MSD. He also removed the HEI mods inside the MS and installed a jumper from the LED negative to the ign pad per the instructions above. Of course the ign module is gone altogether. Also updated the ignition input to rising edge, spark output going high and turned of the GM HEI DIS options as it's no longer used.

When trying to crank it the tach goes crazy and will barely want to crank. I adjusted the two pots on the inside per the board modifier all the way in counter clockwise and out 1 turn.

IM LOST and am really frsutrated. please help

WASyL

sorry for delay in response but had business trip
check your msq now for these as long as you wired everything properly

Spin_Phoenix

I have limited experience with MS II, but one thing caught my eye. You have your VR sensor wires attaching to MS pins 25 & 19. When I ditched the Ignition Module in my setup, I grounded one wire (I think the green one) to the distributer body. Now you are running the Relay Board also, is that correct?
That means I placed the ungrounded VR wire to the TACH position on the relay board.
After reviewing the megamanual, pin 25 is used for the IAC stepper motor. Pin 24 is the pin you need.
One more thing; I think the wire going from the VR sensor (that is not grounded) should be shielded. I will verify my diagram & installation notes when I get home. This shielded wire has a steel braiding outside the wire, but undernieth the insulation. When you attach this wire to the VR sensor, just solder the core and tape (or shrink tube) the braiding so it does not contact any conductive material in the area. On the opposite end of the wire (MS II or the Relay board) attach the core to pin 24 or TACH respectivly. The braided end should then be attached to ground. This shielding prevents coil EM noise from being introduced into the tach signal.

I hope not to add to the confusion, so please verify my wiring comments with DIYautotune and the megamanual. I'll follow this thread and chime in if I have relivent info to add.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Yes sir you are exactly correct! It was on pin 24 and I have now gotten the car to start and run, but it's still not great.

My next issue is now my mapdaddy is not working.

It will read boost and vacuum while the key is on and the car not running. Once you get the car running it reads the vacuum the motor pulls and then hangs there. IT NEVER goes up when you rev the car and cause it to die unless it is idling.

Spin_Phoenix

There are 2 other ways of testing the map sensors functionality (that I can think of).
Setup) Verify the settings on Mega Tune (or Tuner Studio MS) are correct.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...ion-p-117.html
1) Open the MS II case, put a clean hose on each sensor (port), and manually test each signal. Whether you use a vacuum pump or some other method, you should get some response in Mega Tune (or Tuner Studio).
2) Attach a vacuum/pressure gauge to the hose going to megasquirt. (You could probably use a plastic Tee fitting). The vacuum/pressure gauge should read the same as MS with the engine running. The second pressure from megasquirt should remain stable and unchanging (as it should be reading atmospheric pressure).


Incidentally, Is your VR sensor cable shielded? (as described in my last post) Has the TACH signal behavior become more stable?

WASyL

i was told that erratic tach behaviour casued by MSD 6 can be fixed with this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8910/

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Wow, thanks for the response guys!

Yes, the MSD is much more stable since I got the timing closer(still not gonna say 100% right, but very close).

Where can i view sensor 2(baro) in tunerstudios?

We have tried the hose test and with the car not running it works correctly. Once the car cranks though it will not change, even if you pull the hose off of the mapdaddy altogether it still registers vacuum. If you turn the car off it is then correct and resets at 100kpa or 0 boost(for us Americans, lol)

I did use shielded wire, but I think my noise was more from teh fact the timing was way off(had to use 60 in my trigger setting to get it right) than anything.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I haven't hooked up my autometer tach yet, I wonder how that will act?

Spin_Phoenix

You would have to do some further investigating, but all the inputs (and outputs) are displayed in tuner studio under Tuning=> Real Time Display => All Output Channels (tab at the bottom) There is a ton of data being displayed on this screen so take the time to find the field of interest.

The other thing I might check is to see if the sensor was installed correctly. Look for solder bridges and that the jumper wire was installed correctly.

WASyL

when engine is off MAP should read 100 kpa or floating in range 99,5-100 due to present kpa in atmosphere

as for autometer tach no idea but propably will act erratic as well as it has same signal

best regards

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Finally goit the MS working!!!!!! At least I hope. KPA was around the 100 mark as it should be. The problem ws my MAP offset angle somehow got changed to 180. Changed it back to 45* per MSextra forums and it is working properly. My erratic tach signal has also cleared up since I got my timing trigger offset correct. trigger offset is set at 70. Should I move my distributor to compensate and lower the trigger offset or leave it as is as it raises and lowers the timing correctly and the timing light is saying EXACTLY what the MS is saying.

FYI I ended up keeping the Ignition module out and using the distributor as only a signal to the MS.

I will update this thread as I HOPE its completely OK at this time, but won't know for sure until I start the tuning and dynoing process. Thanks everyone for the help!