Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
02-13-2009, 11:44 AM
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Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
Ugh, just fried another PCM (it's happened before, but for power issues) by trying to program it for the 28lb injectors I just threw in and somehow LOST communication...
Car info: '76 Vette w/ '95 LT-1/4L60e, F-body PCM (16188051), Painless wiring harness, AKM adaptor cable.
I have no idea of why it lost communication (ALDL test was positive)
I tried programming using TunerCat V 2.23, while in Win98 (no screen savers or other programs running)
It was just starting to program (maybe 15%), then "lost communication" appeared and my PCM was ticking (normal sound when programming) and did not stop until the key was off. When I turned the key back on, both (I believe) fans came and stayed on. Fuel pump didn't prime and no signs of life from the car!
I had a spare PCM from an F-body (Trans Am?) and hooked that up, but the car just ran for a moment, then stalled. I tried READING the PCM (using DOS this time), but communication was lost again and the following error message appeared: Fatal Error - Program Terminated, Program Error Code: 5, Program Error Address: 6538.
After the "Fatal error" message, I tried to start the vehicle, but it only cranked (never started and fuel pump wasn't priming). I then turned the car off and disconnected the battery for 30 seconds or so. Now the fuel pump primes again, but the car only runs for a few seconds then stalls.
1) Any suggestions on why this may be happening?
2) I didn't think you could get into "trouble" just by READING the PCM...??? My goal is to Program, but was surprised an error occured when READING as well.
All info appreciated!
Car info: '76 Vette w/ '95 LT-1/4L60e, F-body PCM (16188051), Painless wiring harness, AKM adaptor cable.
I have no idea of why it lost communication (ALDL test was positive)
I tried programming using TunerCat V 2.23, while in Win98 (no screen savers or other programs running)
It was just starting to program (maybe 15%), then "lost communication" appeared and my PCM was ticking (normal sound when programming) and did not stop until the key was off. When I turned the key back on, both (I believe) fans came and stayed on. Fuel pump didn't prime and no signs of life from the car!
I had a spare PCM from an F-body (Trans Am?) and hooked that up, but the car just ran for a moment, then stalled. I tried READING the PCM (using DOS this time), but communication was lost again and the following error message appeared: Fatal Error - Program Terminated, Program Error Code: 5, Program Error Address: 6538.
After the "Fatal error" message, I tried to start the vehicle, but it only cranked (never started and fuel pump wasn't priming). I then turned the car off and disconnected the battery for 30 seconds or so. Now the fuel pump primes again, but the car only runs for a few seconds then stalls.
1) Any suggestions on why this may be happening?
2) I didn't think you could get into "trouble" just by READING the PCM...??? My goal is to Program, but was surprised an error occured when READING as well.
All info appreciated!
02-14-2009, 07:33 AM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
Sorry about your PCM. I am not an EFI expert, just getting into it, but I have been working electronic equipment all my life, so let’s go over a few basics.
Most of today’s computer systems are voltage sensitive, so power and grounding are essential to protecting your investment. How did you ground all your sensors and PCM grounds leads? In my TBI project I created a common point ground on top of the intake manifold for all sensor and engine harness leads to be bonded to. This prevents ground loops and poor vehicle grounding from destroying my sensors and ECM. I also ran a dedicated ground to this point from the negative battery supply to insure there were no poor mechanical ground issues. As vehicles and engines get older the mechanical grounding you depend on start to fail, it’s always a good idea to go over all the grounds and add some additional bonding to make up for the aging corroding vehicle ground systems.
I solid ground system is the best way to protect your ECM/PCM.
Also check all your battery supply leads, any loose connections can have disastrous results. If your charging system or ignition system is producing voltage spikes, that can cause your PCM to fail.
Any loose leads on your charging system can create large voltage spikes that will destroy your PCM.
How was your laptop powered up when you connected to the data port for your PCM, was it plugged into an AC outlet, or running on battery. Was anything else connected to your vehicle like a battery charger or something else that gets plugged into an AC outlet?
Jim
Most of today’s computer systems are voltage sensitive, so power and grounding are essential to protecting your investment. How did you ground all your sensors and PCM grounds leads? In my TBI project I created a common point ground on top of the intake manifold for all sensor and engine harness leads to be bonded to. This prevents ground loops and poor vehicle grounding from destroying my sensors and ECM. I also ran a dedicated ground to this point from the negative battery supply to insure there were no poor mechanical ground issues. As vehicles and engines get older the mechanical grounding you depend on start to fail, it’s always a good idea to go over all the grounds and add some additional bonding to make up for the aging corroding vehicle ground systems.
I solid ground system is the best way to protect your ECM/PCM.
Also check all your battery supply leads, any loose connections can have disastrous results. If your charging system or ignition system is producing voltage spikes, that can cause your PCM to fail.
Any loose leads on your charging system can create large voltage spikes that will destroy your PCM.
How was your laptop powered up when you connected to the data port for your PCM, was it plugged into an AC outlet, or running on battery. Was anything else connected to your vehicle like a battery charger or something else that gets plugged into an AC outlet?
Jim
02-14-2009, 08:26 AM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
Prior to this programming attemp, all systems seemed fine; no signs of strange trouble codes, sensor failures, etc... But I do understand about important grounds. One time the engine would just quit running out-of-the-blue when the main ground wire to the PCM was coming loose, so put some lok-tite on the threads AND put an additional ground strap from the frame to that point.. haven't had an issue since!
Back to my current issue... I'll double/triple check, but I believe all my pos+ wires are fine as well. I didn't take a reading, but since I had driven the car about 20 miles a few hours before, the battery charge *should have* been fine. I did have the laptop plugged into AC power (I had fried another PCM when programming once when I had it running on it's battery power and lost power). I don't think I'll ever program using the laptop power again! No other accessories were plugged into the vehicle (iPod, radar, etc.)
Thanks for the insight... I'll check all connections again
Back to my current issue... I'll double/triple check, but I believe all my pos+ wires are fine as well. I didn't take a reading, but since I had driven the car about 20 miles a few hours before, the battery charge *should have* been fine. I did have the laptop plugged into AC power (I had fried another PCM when programming once when I had it running on it's battery power and lost power). I don't think I'll ever program using the laptop power again! No other accessories were plugged into the vehicle (iPod, radar, etc.)
Thanks for the insight... I'll check all connections again
02-14-2009, 10:19 AM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
Make sure you do not have any mechanical butt splices in any of your PCM wiring, they can also cause trouble. I always use a good crimp splice, than solder the crimp splice and cover with one wrap of electrical tape covered with shrink tube. The crimp gives a good strong mechanical connection, and the soldering gives a good electrical connection. I put a little dielectric grease under the shrink tube to keep moisture/corroson out. Just a small amount.
I doubt the AC power to the laptop is an issue if nothing else was connected to the vehicle on AC power, if two things are connected to an AC power source you can have at times a ground fault or ground loop between different AC phases/nuetrals or grounds.
How do you power up your PCM, if on a relay make sure it does not have some burnt contacts on the relay.
Good luck,
Jim
I doubt the AC power to the laptop is an issue if nothing else was connected to the vehicle on AC power, if two things are connected to an AC power source you can have at times a ground fault or ground loop between different AC phases/nuetrals or grounds.
How do you power up your PCM, if on a relay make sure it does not have some burnt contacts on the relay.
Good luck,
Jim
02-14-2009, 12:06 PM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
Good idea about the solder/butt splices... The only "butt slice" that I believe to have is one going to my Auto Meter speedo. From what I remember, I needed to "T" off the wire coming from the speed sensor in the tranny. Everything else was direct plug-ins to the sensors. I will check the relay too for any burnt/corrosion issues..
Some add'l info about the "communication" issue...
Had the car on trickle charger all night (just to be sure vehicle's power isn't an issue) and ran the ALDL Test program again with the following results:
Phase 1 (DTR only power), Phase 2 (RTS only power), and Phase 3 (DTR + RTS power only) ALL had "Timeout error receiving data, Phase "X" failed" errors.
Phase 4 (Enabling RTS + DTS power) and (Setting BAUD rate to 8192) had the result: "Failed to receive data. Verify that the PC serial port is correctly set-up."
I'm really not sure of what all this means, but since all 4 "Phases" failed, there's probably something wrong here...???
Some add'l info about the "communication" issue...
Had the car on trickle charger all night (just to be sure vehicle's power isn't an issue) and ran the ALDL Test program again with the following results:
Phase 1 (DTR only power), Phase 2 (RTS only power), and Phase 3 (DTR + RTS power only) ALL had "Timeout error receiving data, Phase "X" failed" errors.
Phase 4 (Enabling RTS + DTS power) and (Setting BAUD rate to 8192) had the result: "Failed to receive data. Verify that the PC serial port is correctly set-up."
I'm really not sure of what all this means, but since all 4 "Phases" failed, there's probably something wrong here...???
02-14-2009, 08:44 PM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
Ugh, just fried another PCM (it's happened before, but for power issues) by trying to program it for the 28lb injectors I just threw in and somehow LOST communication...
Car info: '76 Vette w/ '95 LT-1/4L60e, F-body PCM (16188051), Painless wiring harness, AKM adaptor cable.
I have no idea of why it lost communication (ALDL test was positive)
I tried programming using TunerCat V 2.23, while in Win98 (no screen savers or other programs running)
It was just starting to program (maybe 15%), then "lost communication" appeared and my PCM was ticking (normal sound when programming) and did not stop until the key was off. When I turned the key back on, both (I believe) fans came and stayed on. Fuel pump didn't prime and no signs of life from the car!
I had a spare PCM from an F-body (Trans Am?) and hooked that up, but the car just ran for a moment, then stalled. I tried READING the PCM (using DOS this time), but communication was lost again and the following error message appeared: Fatal Error - Program Terminated, Program Error Code: 5, Program Error Address: 6538.
After the "Fatal error" message, I tried to start the vehicle, but it only cranked (never started and fuel pump wasn't priming). I then turned the car off and disconnected the battery for 30 seconds or so. Now the fuel pump primes again, but the car only runs for a few seconds then stalls.
1) Any suggestions on why this may be happening?
2) I didn't think you could get into "trouble" just by READING the PCM...??? My goal is to Program, but was surprised an error occured when READING as well.
All info appreciated!
Car info: '76 Vette w/ '95 LT-1/4L60e, F-body PCM (16188051), Painless wiring harness, AKM adaptor cable.
I have no idea of why it lost communication (ALDL test was positive)
I tried programming using TunerCat V 2.23, while in Win98 (no screen savers or other programs running)
It was just starting to program (maybe 15%), then "lost communication" appeared and my PCM was ticking (normal sound when programming) and did not stop until the key was off. When I turned the key back on, both (I believe) fans came and stayed on. Fuel pump didn't prime and no signs of life from the car!
I had a spare PCM from an F-body (Trans Am?) and hooked that up, but the car just ran for a moment, then stalled. I tried READING the PCM (using DOS this time), but communication was lost again and the following error message appeared: Fatal Error - Program Terminated, Program Error Code: 5, Program Error Address: 6538.
After the "Fatal error" message, I tried to start the vehicle, but it only cranked (never started and fuel pump wasn't priming). I then turned the car off and disconnected the battery for 30 seconds or so. Now the fuel pump primes again, but the car only runs for a few seconds then stalls.
1) Any suggestions on why this may be happening?
2) I didn't think you could get into "trouble" just by READING the PCM...??? My goal is to Program, but was surprised an error occured when READING as well.
All info appreciated!
What do you mean ALDL test is positive? Which ALDL connector do you have old style GM or 16 pin OBD2?
How are you programming on board ( through ALDL ) or off board ( an adapter plugged into your PCM)
Did you have your anti-spy ware turned off?
sorry for all the questions just trying to help get to the bottom of this.
Jeff
02-15-2009, 07:23 AM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
You said the car runs for a few seconds then stalls, sounds like anti-theft is cutting off fuel. Do you have a VATS by-pass module installed?
*** Yes, my Painless wiring harness came w/ a VATS by-pass module, so there "shouldn't" be an issue there.
_ _ _
What do you mean ALDL test is positive? Which ALDL connector do you have old style GM or 16 pin OBD2?
*** I ran this program called "ALDL Test". It checks the connection/communication of the PC/laptop w/ the car's PCM. It initially tested positive (passed all the tests it checks), but when I ran the test again the following morning, it FAILED all the tests (see my third post). I don't know what the results of the test really mean, but since they all FAILED, probably not good! I'm have the GM "transition" connector used in '94/95 (16-pin OBDII style, but still uses OBDI)
_ _ _
How are you programming on board ( through ALDL ) or off board ( an adapter plugged into your PCM)
*** I'm using my laptop and software called TunerCat (It's an LT1-Edit knockoff). I've been using this from day one (about 7 years now), and this is the first time I've fried a PCM because of a communication problem. I had lost another when power was interrupted during programming, but that was my own fault! : (
_ _ _
Did you have your anti-spy ware turned off?
*** Yes, all spyware / screen savers, etc. are turned off. This laptop is ONLY used for programming and data logging (no internet access is posible).
_ _ _
sorry for all the questions just trying to help get to the bottom of this.
*** NO problem at all! Anything to help me figure this out is appreciated!
This stuff makes me crazy!
*** Yes, my Painless wiring harness came w/ a VATS by-pass module, so there "shouldn't" be an issue there.
_ _ _
What do you mean ALDL test is positive? Which ALDL connector do you have old style GM or 16 pin OBD2?
*** I ran this program called "ALDL Test". It checks the connection/communication of the PC/laptop w/ the car's PCM. It initially tested positive (passed all the tests it checks), but when I ran the test again the following morning, it FAILED all the tests (see my third post). I don't know what the results of the test really mean, but since they all FAILED, probably not good! I'm have the GM "transition" connector used in '94/95 (16-pin OBDII style, but still uses OBDI)
_ _ _
How are you programming on board ( through ALDL ) or off board ( an adapter plugged into your PCM)
*** I'm using my laptop and software called TunerCat (It's an LT1-Edit knockoff). I've been using this from day one (about 7 years now), and this is the first time I've fried a PCM because of a communication problem. I had lost another when power was interrupted during programming, but that was my own fault! : (
_ _ _
Did you have your anti-spy ware turned off?
*** Yes, all spyware / screen savers, etc. are turned off. This laptop is ONLY used for programming and data logging (no internet access is posible).
_ _ _
sorry for all the questions just trying to help get to the bottom of this.
*** NO problem at all! Anything to help me figure this out is appreciated!
This stuff makes me crazy!
Last edited by dr76; 02-15-2009 at 07:26 AM. Reason: correction
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02-15-2009, 01:21 PM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
OK I'm unfamiliar with TunerCat and all of those aftermarket programmers. I'm an auto technician and have a ton of experience flashing (reprogramming)vehicles and I own a Tech2 (factory GM Scan tool) so that's why I'm trying to help. Not quite sure what the ALDL test is checking for, on the tech2 it has a test for class 2 serial data (may be that is what is testing) if so then yes you have a problem.
What I would do next is, seeing that you have the OBD2 style connector is get a DVOM and check for battery voltage at pin16, check for a good ground at pins 4 and 5. If that checks OK then here is where it can get confusing you'll have to check the serial data lines on pins 9 and 6. the best way is to check then with a lab scope you should get a square waveform of only about 2.5volts, if all you have is a DVOM then you may only get @ 1-2 volts (it takes an average) if you have a good DVOM the voltage will swing. that will tell you that the PCM is sending serial data to the DLC (ALDL). If that all checks OK then you have a problem with your TunerCat. If you have no serial data voltage then you have to go to your PCM and check B+ and grounds and serial data out of PCM, you could also have a shorted serial data line you might want to check for that also. GOOD LUCK Jeff
What I would do next is, seeing that you have the OBD2 style connector is get a DVOM and check for battery voltage at pin16, check for a good ground at pins 4 and 5. If that checks OK then here is where it can get confusing you'll have to check the serial data lines on pins 9 and 6. the best way is to check then with a lab scope you should get a square waveform of only about 2.5volts, if all you have is a DVOM then you may only get @ 1-2 volts (it takes an average) if you have a good DVOM the voltage will swing. that will tell you that the PCM is sending serial data to the DLC (ALDL). If that all checks OK then you have a problem with your TunerCat. If you have no serial data voltage then you have to go to your PCM and check B+ and grounds and serial data out of PCM, you could also have a shorted serial data line you might want to check for that also. GOOD LUCK Jeff
02-15-2009, 05:17 PM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
OK, did some testing w/ my DVOM (Blue Point / Snap-on... not quite a lab scope!)
Pins 4,5 seem to be getting a good ground.
Pin 6 is getting 5.08V (?) Maybe a true scope is needed?
Pin 9 is getting 4.70V (?) " " " " " "
Pin 16 is getting (B+) power
My ALDL cable only uses Pins 4, 5, 9, and 11(?) Not sure what 11 does and why 16 isn't needed (because laptop is getting alternate power?) Anyway, my cable's pin 9 is REALLY corroded (like an old penny!), so pretty sure communication would be hindered by that.
I did get a response fom the cable manufacturer... he is more-than-happy to look at my cable and can resolder the "sockets" in my fried PCM, which should bring it to life again. I don't know if the corrosion is the answer, but probably part of it, at least. He also recommended an alternate program to use for testing the cable. It's called PCMcomm and available (free) from http://Carputing.com. It passed this test w/ no glitches, but the connection (esp. Pin 9) may have been better than when I originally tried programming...???
Let me know what you think about the 'higher" voltages at pins 6 and 9, or if it's just my DVOM.
Thanks again for all the info!
Pins 4,5 seem to be getting a good ground.
Pin 6 is getting 5.08V (?) Maybe a true scope is needed?
Pin 9 is getting 4.70V (?) " " " " " "
Pin 16 is getting (B+) power
My ALDL cable only uses Pins 4, 5, 9, and 11(?) Not sure what 11 does and why 16 isn't needed (because laptop is getting alternate power?) Anyway, my cable's pin 9 is REALLY corroded (like an old penny!), so pretty sure communication would be hindered by that.
I did get a response fom the cable manufacturer... he is more-than-happy to look at my cable and can resolder the "sockets" in my fried PCM, which should bring it to life again. I don't know if the corrosion is the answer, but probably part of it, at least. He also recommended an alternate program to use for testing the cable. It's called PCMcomm and available (free) from http://Carputing.com. It passed this test w/ no glitches, but the connection (esp. Pin 9) may have been better than when I originally tried programming...???
Let me know what you think about the 'higher" voltages at pins 6 and 9, or if it's just my DVOM.
Thanks again for all the info!
Last edited by dr76; 02-16-2009 at 12:41 AM. Reason: incorrect website
02-16-2009, 06:04 AM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
OK, did some testing w/ my DVOM (Blue Point / Snap-on... not quite a lab scope!)
Pins 4,5 seem to be getting a good ground.
Pin 6 is getting 5.08V (?) Maybe a true scope is needed?
Pin 9 is getting 4.70V (?) " " " " " "
*********No this is OK they must have used 5volts on the serial data lines, I'm at home so I'm just going off my brain, I don't have my info system at home, I'll check when I get to work today. I should have been more descriptive and told you to check pin 9 with pin 5.
************
Pin 16 is getting (B+) power
My ALDL cable only uses Pins 4, 5, 9, and 11(?) Not sure what 11 does and why 16 isn't needed (because laptop is getting alternate power?)
************Not sure what 11 does either I think you are correct about pin 16.
************
Anyway, my cable's pin 9 is REALLY corroded (like an old penny!), so pretty sure communication would be hindered by that.
********I'D GET THIS FIXED FIRST THEN TRY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR PCM.
***********
I did get a response fom the cable manufacturer... he is more-than-happy to look at my cable and can resolder the "sockets" in my fried PCM, which should bring it to life again. I don't know if the corrosion is the answer, but probably part of it, at least. He also recommended an alternate program to use for testing the cable. It's called PCMcomm and available (free) from http://Carputing.com. It passed this test w/ no glitches, but the connection (esp. Pin 9) may have been better than when I originally tried programming...???
********* how did it test the cable? Was the ALDL end connected to something?
***********
Let me know what you think about the 'higher" voltages at pins 6 and 9, or if it's just my DVOM.
****like I said above this is OK they must have used 5v it's been awhile since I've tested data lines on older vehicles, I'm used to the newer stuff.
************
Thanks again for all the info!
Pins 4,5 seem to be getting a good ground.
Pin 6 is getting 5.08V (?) Maybe a true scope is needed?
Pin 9 is getting 4.70V (?) " " " " " "
*********No this is OK they must have used 5volts on the serial data lines, I'm at home so I'm just going off my brain, I don't have my info system at home, I'll check when I get to work today. I should have been more descriptive and told you to check pin 9 with pin 5.
************
Pin 16 is getting (B+) power
My ALDL cable only uses Pins 4, 5, 9, and 11(?) Not sure what 11 does and why 16 isn't needed (because laptop is getting alternate power?)
************Not sure what 11 does either I think you are correct about pin 16.
************
Anyway, my cable's pin 9 is REALLY corroded (like an old penny!), so pretty sure communication would be hindered by that.
********I'D GET THIS FIXED FIRST THEN TRY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR PCM.
***********
I did get a response fom the cable manufacturer... he is more-than-happy to look at my cable and can resolder the "sockets" in my fried PCM, which should bring it to life again. I don't know if the corrosion is the answer, but probably part of it, at least. He also recommended an alternate program to use for testing the cable. It's called PCMcomm and available (free) from http://Carputing.com. It passed this test w/ no glitches, but the connection (esp. Pin 9) may have been better than when I originally tried programming...???
********* how did it test the cable? Was the ALDL end connected to something?
***********
Let me know what you think about the 'higher" voltages at pins 6 and 9, or if it's just my DVOM.
****like I said above this is OK they must have used 5v it's been awhile since I've tested data lines on older vehicles, I'm used to the newer stuff.
************
Thanks again for all the info!
02-16-2009, 07:46 PM
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Re: Fried my PCM while programming...Help!
I had the cable connected between the laptop and ALDL port (as if I was programming or reading/scanning) with the key on (KOEO), and "gobs" of data were being transferred. I think it just lets you know there's communication, not necessarily how good the connection is...
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