spills

iTrader: (9)

Im pricing out my HSR setup, and I really dont wanna buy the entire kit but rather piece by piece. Im now looking at engine management, and Ive also seen the cost of the C950 (from what Ive seen, over $1000!! maybe not looking for right part#). What are my options as far as other ECUs are concerned? And if I were to do something like the Accel DFI, or any other, is it going to be a roal PITA to wire it up to the HSR? I know "easy" and "EFI" are rarely used in the same sentence, but money is still a factor for me. For the intake/fuel rails/30# Ford injs, thats gonna put me at about $840. I work for GM so I can the necessary sensors dirt cheap, but I just really dont know what route to take for the ECU. Any input/advice? I would like something that is laptop-compatible so I dont have to keep burning proms and such. Thanks fo ryour help, and patience with a newb

EDIT: Does anyone know the part# for just the ECU and wire harness for the C950? I wanna make sure Im looking at the right one

Toehead

Megasquirt!


Very affordable You make your own harness.

Kurt04

iTrader: (2)

You could go the DIY way. Get a harness from a TPI car, ECM, Moate's chip burning equipment, download TunerPro, then like you said, sensors, injectors ect. I'm positive it would be cheaper than the Accel DFI or Holley C950.

spills

iTrader: (9)

never heard of megasquirt, Toehead you have any problems with it?

And does anyone have the part #s for the C950 and harness? Though I believe this would be the easiest route (not the cheapest), I want to make aure Im lookin at the right part #s. One on Summit I was lookin at was $1100

Toehead

No problems whatsoever.

Here are some links.

www.msefi.com
www.diyautotune.com

spills

iTrader: (9)

how hard is it to wire up? Im looking at the MSII, http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...ase-p-119.html , and for under $300 that seems like a steal! What do you have to assemble, do you still have to burn a chip or something?

Toehead

It really wasnt bad at all. Took me about 6 hours on one weekend to get the contoller put together. If you are good at electronics kits, this is no different. You put all the components on the board. here are the assembly instructions so you can judge yourself : http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm
even if you buy an assembled unit, it is still about 500 dollars less then most EFI systems!

As for the wiring harness, you use this external diagram and create the harness: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm#ew

The DIY guys are really great and they will help you out. They sell a harness that is made of pre-labled wires with blank ends. You buy that harness, and you just need to splice the GM connectors onto the other side. The megasquirt can use any sensors/ ignition possible, but it is pre-configured for GM sensor values and has built-in HEI support (for 7/8 pin modules)

The forum is also very helpful. Post there if you have any questions.

Obviously this is a DIY project, but you save a ton of money and it is actually a better end result. You can customize the computer to suit your needs. It will even do Nitrous/boost control. It also does wideband O2 tuning. Set your desired AFR and it will match it by adjusting the VE table. The tuning software is a windows-based software. It will run on any old laptop. here is a screenshot:


Obviously, this is a pretty serious undertaking. It is a really good learning expereince. Read the megamanual ( www.megamanual.com ) , post to the forum, and see if the project is for you.

Toehead

Also might want to talk to this guy:
http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=22574

SR-71

If you're not totally confident with a soldering iron, a much easier option is EBL. For EBL, get the wiring harness and ECM from a TBI car, and send the ECM to BobR with some cash. He'll turn it into an EBL ECM and send it back within a week, along with a CD, serial cable, and adapter. Spend the extra 30 bucks for the serial version.

Like Megasquirt, you get real-time feedback and modify the BIN with TunerPro. You can flash your changes directly to the unit. No more chip burning. Plus it has a "learn" mode that automatically generates VE corrections. AND it can be upgraded to run multi-port for just 25 bucks.

After burning somewhere around 400 chips, I finally decided to get EBL. Wow, what a difference! $390 well spent.

The big difference between EBL and Megasquirt is simplicity. BobR has taken all the pain out of it. He's active on these forums, too.

Check it out at http://www.dynamicefi.com/.

Toehead

It is true. I have heard very good things about the EBL.

RFmaster

I run EBL flash - no chip insertion and removal required. Only a laptop and Whats-up software is required to perform on the fly changes. The beauty is that EBL augments and builds on top of C3 ECM, as a foundation, which can be had for about $40 from most JY's. C3 ECM are not as powerful as later PCM's which can control E-type transmissions but very plentiful and can support both TBI and TPI systems.

spills

iTrader: (9)

I dont have a problem with using a soldering iron, ive wired up a few mod chips on xboxes before (if you've done it, you know how small the header pin solder points are!!) So thats no big deal, but is there any appreciable difference between the megasquirt and EBL? From the sounds of it for the EBL I would have to get a TBI harness and ECM and then get the ECM worked on, whereas the megaquirt comes with all that ready to go just wire it all up. User friendly interface would be nice, but not a big thing. I can always drive it to a dyno shop and have them tune it better for me anyways.

And I cant remember if I stated this before, but Im building a stand alone MPFI system. There is nothing let of the original harness other than lights and windows. Other than that, I chopped it all (origianlly went carb/drag race setup). So I havent ventured into the idea of using a modified stock PCM since I would have to hard wire it up anyways. And if I was gonna do that, I just assume get a good aftermarket unit that has been proven to be reliable

Toehead

It may be easier to run the MS in that case. You only need to wire up the sensors that you want, and wont have all the extra wiring associated with the stock ECM.

SR-71

Spills,
Since you seem to balk at the price of a C950, there aren't many good, reliable aftermarket units that fit what seems to be your budget limit. I haven't read a lot of good about C950. From what I've read, about the best around is the Accel system. But there are plenty of complaints about it, too.

I was very interested in the Wolf EMS system for awhile.(http://www.wolfems.com.au/) I've heard nothing but good about it, but it's pricey, too.

Megasquirt it a great system. The documentation on it is plentiful, but somehow always leaves me confused about what I need to buy. If you go to the suppliers' websites, it's not clear what pieces you need. It's a modular kind of design that you need to put together here and there to get what you want. Last I checked, it was fuel only (no spark control), but that may well have changed since I last checked.

Megasquirt has a generic bus connector, which means you must wire it up yourself. Nothing wrong with Megasquirt, but it's more work and time to get it up and running.

I went with EBL these reasons:

• Inexpensive
• Easy wiring -- Uses the existing wiring harness
• DIY - you don't have to have BobR upgrade your ECM. He'll send you the board so you can do it yourself. The instructions are on-line.
• Can be based on any of serveral common "C3" ECMS. The EBL upgrade makes them all the same.
• Simplicity -- No question about "What do I need?"
• Can run TBI or multi-port ($25 extra). BobR says he needs to do this for you. Maybe if you ask....
• Can control TCC on an automatic.
• Can use standard O2 sensor (BLM learning) or wideband O2 sensor.
• Controls HEI EST ignition system.
• 8 inputs for add-on sensors.
• Has extra outputs for controlling fan, A/C, nitrous, boost, etc.
• Supports boost, nitrous, and other toys.
• Flash tuning - no chips to burn
• "What's Up Display" software that gives real-time feedback plus can learn on its own. Also flashes the ECM.
• A complete definition file for TunerPro (which is a free download, too).

If you would rather spend the time and money wiring your system by hand, then Megasquirt may be for you. I liked the fact that EBL would use my existing harness. Even with Megasquirt, it seems to me it would be a lot easier if you just went to a salvage and pulled a complete harness from a car. It's made to fit the cutouts in the car, it's all prewired, pre-cut, and laid out ready to go.

Either way, you get a "stand-alone" system.

Toehead

All valid points.

MS has progressed a lot in the last year. It will control fuel, spark, boost, N20 , turbo water injection, knock sensors, electric fans, etc.


It is confusing when you first learn about it. If you had the stock wiring intact it would be easier to go with the EBL. Since you need to create a wiring harness anyway, i suggest getting the MS, and buying a relay board. This board goes into the engine bay and provides a central location with all your fuses and relays.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...unit-p-32.html

As you can see, you then have a central distribution block with all needed connections.

If you go this route you need the following:
MS-II
relay cable
relay board
wires to hook up to sensors

This would be a very neat and clean looking install.

spills

iTrader: (9)

wow, thanks for the indepth responses guys.

Id like for my budget to be around $500. This is a lot of info for a carb'd guy to take in, so Ill have to take a few days to do some more research into what exactly I need and which one will fit my setup.

I just read the assembly guide for the MS and got a little confused on all the terms (dont know much about in depth electronics, i.e. circuit coards and such), then I saw that the sell assembled ECUs already. But how hard is it really to assemble yourself, I mean if they tell you like "solder resistor A to pin 4" real straight forward, I could go for that. But its when you start to get down to the real physics of electronics, I get lost.

I havent looked into the EBL yet, Ima do that tonite along with some more research into the MS. Thanks for the help guys. Any other suggestions, please feel free. Im not looking to buy any time soon, so I got alot of time to shop around

And Im guessin that the "plug and play" ECUs are the ones that cost $1000, am I right? Or do those require the same amount of time and knowledge as the MS or EBL?

EDIT: Would it be easier to just save up all the money and just buy the HSR kit with C950, all the sensors, wiring, and all that jazz? From the prices Im getting, Im at $1300 w/o fuel pump, ECU/harness, not to mention splicing everything together and hoping for the best. Just another opinion question. This isnt going to be an all out race car, just a weekend warrior and occasional driver to work

d.harder

do you have part #

spills

iTrader: (9)

This is the HSR kit Im lookin at:

HLY-91704201

Toehead

I don't have any experiene with any of the more expensive FI controllers.... I wonder how easy they are to use. Can anybody with such a system chime in? Do they have autotune features?

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

HLY-534-120

Buy this part number from summit. Re-pin a speed density harness from a TPI f-body. The 730 uses the same connectors as the Holley unit. You will have easy to tune fuel injection for less than 700 dollars. The holley unit is a handy little unit.

The 700 dollar price is excluding hardware. I have had excellent luck with the TBI 4bbl unit. I would not hesitate to use it again. It is supporting 515 atop my old man's 383ci 142 blown 77 vette

spills

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for all the info guys. Im still trying to learn all this ECU stuff, so I may be a little noobish with the questions.
hardware as in the sensors? or hardware as in a laptop to tune with?

Ill go through and price it all out if I do buy it piece by piece (which I want to do, but I was thinking that if I get a kit, then it should be an "easy" install. Has anyone on here re-pinned a SD harness before, or are there schematics that show which pins go where? Or would I be on my own at that point?

And with TBI, personlly I dont like it because of the appearance of it. I love the look of the "LT1" style of he HSR. it may cost more, but just astheticallty it looks better to me.

EDIT: Are there any advantages using the C950 setup as compared to a 730? Im goin for the cleanest install (i.e. fewest wires possible), but also looking for a pretty str8 forward install. So from what Im seeing my options are:

A. Buy the C950 and use a SD harness
B. 730 and SD harness

Any advantages/disadvantages to either of these? Thanks

DJ406

another option would be to use a converted LT1 intake and find a used FAST ecu and harness. they pop up for under a grand and are very nice units. They support wide band 02 sensors without any extra controller. Its still not super cheap but you wouldn't outgrow it any time soon.

Doug

spills

iTrader: (9)

but what are the power differences between an LT1 intake vs HSR? the LT1 intake I would have to modify, whereas the HSR is ready to go out-of-box. But to be fair, I havent looked into what is involved in converting an LT1 intake. Do they work with Vortecs?

DJ406

different bolt pattern on the vortec vs std sbc head but the lt1 ports should be a pretty close match to the vortecs. Some fab work will be required. I wouldnt be surprised if the LT1 intake made as much or more power than the HSR. If you can diy the intake that would be a cheaper way to go. I can suggest lots of better and more expensive options if you can spend more .... heh