355SS

iTrader: (1)

I am in the market for a new ecm and I am trying to decide between the holley and accel units? I have a camaro with a 355(zz9 cam, afr heads,superram), blower, t56 . Does anyone have first hand experience with either unit? I figure that the Holley is sufficient and the accel is overkill but, I would like someother opinions.
Thanks

614Streets

I run the commander 950 PRO. It is alot for the money when used with wide band. I run 2 bar 670 cfm tbi set up on a blown 2.8.
I paid 385 plus 20 for vw LSU sensor for the tech edge wide band , and have under 400 in my whole commander tbi pro system(thanks ebay, doug flynn at holley). All the commander 950 units should be the PRO version very soon.

I have not used the accell yet.

biggtime

I have the accel DFIV7 it all depends on what you are looking for. The Holley unit is good but the accel does a quite a bit more.

aDFIguy

The Holley unit is really similar to the DFI Gen 6 ECU. It's very basic, yet functional. If you are new to EFI, chances are that you could make your car driveable and learn a little something along the way.

However, if you are the experimenting type, or are already familiar with fuel injection, in my opinion, you'd outgrow the Holley unit pretty quickly. There's not much in the way of new technology in that box. It operates like a Gen 6 DFI with a hacked windoze interface.

355SS

iTrader: (1)

I currently have the gen 6 and I am looking for a upgrade. Are either on that easy to tune I am sick of the DOS based interface. What features does the accel have over the holley?

Grumpy

A true upgrade would be going back to the stock ecm. You might note the aftermarket ecms are now getting more and more sophisticated. At this rate in 2-3 more generations they will achieve the same tuning capabilities of the stock ecms. Taking a stock ecm and running something like Tunercat_RT lets you do real time tuning, and it has a pretty Windows interface.

355SS

iTrader: (1)

I quickly checked out tunercats web site and it does look interesting (I have thought about going this route before but I always end up going back to the aftermarket because thier setups look easier to work with). I wish there was someone close by that could give me a in person run down of tunercat. Is there a way to run the rt program on my desktop so I can see what the screnes look like? Grumpy I am running a 90 camaro with about 8 psi boost on a 350 and I have a t56 for my trans, which ecm would you recommend and what code would I need to run on this ecm? Sorry if I am not using the correct lingo.

gta324

for boosted application the only code that will support that is the $58 from the sy/ty cars. It runs in the sock 730ECM after repinning a few wires.

Like you I also look at diffrent DFI systems to feed my blown 415cui....

I really like the $58 code idea and will probably test it this year and ditch my FMU. DFI has its nice side but so does the $58 code I have not yet come up which way to go.....

/N.

355SS

iTrader: (1)

I have been doing alot of reading over the last 2 days, (I even collected 2 730 ecm's and 2 749 ecm's last year when I was thinking about going back to a gm ecm) and the prominator $300 and tunercat rt $100 sounds like it would work fine but you still need scanning software $?. I really need to sit down with someone who knows alot about gm tuning so I could get a better grasp of what is all possible with the 730. But right now I am still leanig towards the aftermarket mostly because it seems as if learning how to program would take me entirely to long. I cant sit infront of the computer for weeks searching through old posts trying to teach myself how to program I am to much of a hands on person.

gta324

Download the tunerpro program its free and then you could open up the 730.ecu and a 58.ecu file and look at it.

http://www.supportfitness.com/mark/tunerpro/

scantool is free
http://www.supportfitness.com/mark/tunerpro/
http://www.moates.net


You still need to learn how to program a DFI just like you need to learn the 8D/58 code.....

58code
+cheap
+alot of functions
+the challenge
-harder to tune, a typical DFI guy cannot help you
-to run P/H injectorn you must upgrade the drivers
-Tuning with WB not possible, you could add a WB to it and scan the car but not let the ECM tune with it

DFI
+Runs P/H injectors
+Easier to learn
+Generallly they can not control all the stuff GM ECM do
+WB tuning closed loop WOT ......
-some people having trouble with part throttle driving(tunng issue?)
-the price

Personally I (think) will try the 58 code and wait for the new FAST unit...

/N.


Other notes
Fastest Sy/ty runs 10.7 with the 58code....
FAST is realesing the new system in 3month

614Streets

Some nice features in the Pro commander are the ability to add resolution where needed. For instance if you run a 2bar map sensor but dont utilize the full 15 lbs of boost which is maximum for 2 bar , you can change the map axis to scale it down to get more pulsewidth values in the areas of load used.

Also You can change both x and y axis which is as stated above the map scale points but also whatever rpm cell values you wish. 16x16 map.

With the pro unit you also get an 8x8 target o2 voltage map that allows you to pick the air fuel ratio you want at certain load/rpm values. The compesation for these selected values can also be programed by the 02 compensation limit %. It allows you to tell the ecu how much fuel the ecu can add or subtract to obtain the o2 values desired. This is helpful under the upper cells of the map because you can allow the ecu to add whatever percentage of fuel to maintain that desired 02 but not allow it to subtract which is a saftey from going lean.

Any wideband controller can be used with the commander pro because holley allows you to program the air fuel versus voltage
from 10:1 to 18:1 a/f ratio.

You dont need a laptop in the car to datalog and this can be activated by your choice of switches by selecting the button on the screen , map postion , rpm , tps position.

I'll put it this way for right at $1000 you can buy a holley pro and a innovate or tech edge wide band unit with a sensor and run full closed loop. Try to beat that. And its easy to learn and a gm harness plugs right in , just do a repin.

For the price its tough to beat.

One more thing the moderator over at chevytalk is Doug Flynn an engineer at holley and if you ever needed help he is very quick to help http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/pos...lapsed&sb=5&o=

Just like the owner of Tech edge , bends over backwards to get anyone straightened out.

gta324

I agree

355SS

iTrader: (1)

This is exactly why I have a problem deciding which route to pursue to many good options. The holley unit sounds like it will do everything that I need, if the accel unit is "better" what will it do that the holley won't? I do want to run a wideband and I have read that there is a patch to run the innovate with the 730 but I am not sure how that works. I would like a windows interface and I love the fact that my gen 6 has onboard data logging. I think part of my problem with the gm ecm is that I don't know the lingo that everyone uses on the diyprom board. I am not sure how cheap the 730 will be I am looking at $850 (innovate,scan tool, tunercat_RT, and prominator) these are by my choice I know that there are free alternatives but I think that they match my needs the best. I don't mind spending $1000-$2000 on a ecm but cheaper is better. So for the extra $150 I could have a holley unit which I think is very similar to the gen 6 unit I have been running for the last 5 years. I feel like I am just going around in circles. On a side note does anyone have a preference between the innovate and techedge wb?

614Streets

The TE offers for $385 plus $29 for the LSU sensor and a great red led display box. Both have datalogging , both can be free air calibrated and are flashed based. Nothing compares to the LED display that comes with the tech edge.

The Tech edge is constantly being hot rodded by electronics experts and reflashing it to the latest version is as simple as connecting to the internet and downloading then reflash it yourself. They keep testing it and refining it , its really presice now. You can build a unit yourself if you are handy with circut boards and save money but I bought a pre built unit. You can check out the TE datalog software before you buy it http://wbo2.com/sw/zip/tewblog-20a.zip

To tie into the TE WB linear output signal to send signal to your ecu to run full closed loop requires you to take a rj45 connector(ethernet cable, bought mine on ebay for $3) and plug it into the TE RJ45 port and then splice the wire coming from the rj45 pin 4 into the o2 wire terminal on the ecu you are using.
Rj 45 seen here.
http://wbo2.com/2a0/2a0info.htm


The Innovate has better looking software
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/screen_grab.html
and the intial price I belive is $349 including the sensor. To datalog may cost an extra 100 though for a cable and the lm1 unit itself is bulky and has no external display. Basically its a great datalogger unit with pretty software with alot of hidden costs to match the TE unit.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


http://wbo2.com

Good previous discussion between the two

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread....1&page=1&pp=10

Which unit has better Quality control build process is up in the air , but I will say I ordered a te2.0 when they first released I got it and it worked great but after I went to closed loop wb with the holley pro I found out that the rj45 pin 4 had been left unsoldered on my prebuilt unit , so I had to email the owner to diagnose it , which he did very well and told me where the problem should be and I saw the unsoldered pin and fixed it myself. Could have been hell for someone who is less inclined to diy.

If the lm1 had external display and didnt need a $100 cable to log It would be a very tough or easy choice depending on how you look at it but for now the TE stands out with its excellent display and a controller that is right on par with other more expensive units.

BTW take a look at the lm1 accesories pages and you'll see lots of "accesories" at high prices that come standard on the TE2.0

Grumpy

The 1227749 and the 58 code.
You might also look at the Prominator, and AutoProm. A search on the DIY CHIP Board will yeild alot of info..

Grumpy

With 60 PPH saturated injectors being available, there is no need for P+Hs unless your building an incredible amount of HP.

The DIY Chip Board has more active members then any DFI Board I know of. And some are pretty well versed in the stock ecms.

WB is mute. You still have to determine what AFR your engine likes best. Closed loop WB, is just eye candy in my book. A WB isn't perfect so you have to do all the normal checks with plug reading to make sure things are OK.

FAST seems to have software issues, and the cal not updating correctly, visit Turbobuick.com for the threads on that.

Grumpy

If you go to DIY-WB.Com, you can read the agreement TE broke to market their unit. If you want to go to DIY-EFI and read the full story in detail you can read about people that can not be taken at their word.

I have run the Innovative, and with having the bargraph it makes all the difference in trying to tune in the Accleration Enrichment. And AE is what can make a car extremely fun to drive. And with a little work you can data log the WB along with TPS/RPM, and have a VERY cost effective answer.

D F

I think running closed loop with a wideband is more than eye candy. If you can't run at 14.7:1 closed loop with a narrowband, which is usually a bit rough with much of a cam, then being able to run closed loop at any A/F works great.

I'll be the first to say, no matter what you run, it has to be tuned very well, and running with a wideband doesn't change that, but running closed loop at whatever A/F you want makes things a little better than running open loop at certain A/F ratios if you are stuck with a narrow band and can't run at 14.7:1.

As you said it make the tuning much simpler no matter what.

gta324

I've only found 55lbs satured? but anyway I'm looking at a injector driver upgrade to handle P/H to get better idle quality when I'm doing the $58code change. Havent found any drivers yet in sweden, but then the $58 code switching to "quasi-mode" when inj .PW going to short so maybe it wont be beeded???

I use to visit turbobuick and read alot of posts about DFI...

355SS: Any chance you could sell a 749 to me? send a PM...

Grumpy: any chance that you have any HUFA76429P3?

/N.

355SS

iTrader: (1)

I plan on hanging on to them just incase I do decide to make the switch. GTA I see you have been over at chevy talk with the same questions, have you decided which direction you are going?
What is a "HUFA76429P3"?

gta324

Going to stay GM ECM 8D and then 58code and then when FAST is realesing their new system Im going to decide. Hopefully I've dialed in my engine then so I wont need another EFI system...

HUFA76429P3: injector drivers for the 749ECM to hanlde P/H injectors....

/N.

Kingtal0n

So someone with a Commander 950 setup (old version) would have to upgrade to the pro version ($100?? confirm this?) then could just buy the "Tech Edge" Wideband for $385 and have close loop WB right? wrong?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

From what I know about the upgrade that is correct, with the exception of the WB. Get the Innovate, Holley or FJO WB unit and don't look back. The TE unit may look nice on the surface, but as they say beauty is only skin deep.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

As a side note the Holley WB unit is the FJO unit and uses the NTK L1H1 sensor.

RBob.

Kingtal0n

RBOB which of those is the most cost effective? can I still use the $30 VW sensor?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The Innovate unit uses the Bosch WB sensor (aka the VW sensor). The FJO & Holley unit use the NTK sensor (a bit more pricey).

RBob.

Kingtal0n

Ok so lets say I got the Innovative Unit, How would I hook that into the commander 950 computer to run closed loop at all times?

614Streets

Just curious have you tested the TE to lay truth to your claims that it is not a good unit? If so please post your testing results.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The WB unit gets power from the vehicle, the WB sensor is wired into the Innovate unit, then a connection is made from the Innovate WB unit to the Comdr 950.

The Cmdr 950 unit is then programmed for closed loop operation via a WB along with programming in a matrix of desired AFR's.

Here is a link to the Pro Race upgrade information:

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...A/950-125.html


I also found this link which is an interesting read. It describes some of the features of the Cmdr 950 and how they can be used:

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechSer...l/Artcl06.html

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Why not ask TE what they have done to verify their unit? Funny how every time someone does there is either no reply or an evasive answer.

RBob.

614Streets

I thought maybe you knew since you claim it is not up to par, now you want me to verify it with the company?

The least you could do is post some evidence to lay truth to that claim , otherwise its hearsay. And trust me if you know I wanna know , otherwise its not a proven fact.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is standard engineering practice before purchasing equipment to study the backgrounds of the designers and the track record of the company. What is their education, what are their backgrounds, what previous experience do they have? What other successful products have they developed and marketed?

And why shouldn't you verify it with the company that is selling the equipment? They are the ones selling the equipment, you are the purchaser, they are the ones that have to prove the worth of the equipment.

This is called due diligence.

A WB unit is not a cheap investment. And gets even more expensive if it fails and the engine melts down (or otherwise breaks).

RBob.

614Streets

I did look into TE before I bought it. I liked what I saw and read so I bought it. I have no reason not to trust it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

And what did you find? What is their education, what are their backgrounds, what previous experience do they have? What other successful products have they developed and marketed?

What evidence did they provide to verify that their WB unit meets any type of standards?

RBob.

614Streets

I found out that they are a good solid company with great customer relations striving to produce a top notch quality product at a low price. I saw a little man in a big world trying to make it working hard so I sent him my money and never looked back. I trust in my TE unit and do not question its performance or ability to provide me with the information I need to get my engine running at Ideal a/f ratios.

I also saw great ideas being shared between customer and the business which is one thing I really like to see.

If I was unsure about it I wouldnt have bought it. It fits my needs perfectly.

I like it , what else do you want me to say?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You do not need to say anything more as you have said it all. No due diligence, no real investigation of the company or the people behind it.

If you dig a little deeper you will discover that it isn't what it all seems to be on the surface. As I previously posted, scratch the surface a little, it is quite different once you get below the cover.

RBob.

Grumpy

Striving, ie, coping what was available for education purposes and not to be used for commercial reasons. Try reading the argeement at DIY-WB.com, and the archives at DIY-EFI if it ever comes back up and get back to me about what they're striving to do. You obviously have not investigated what that firm has cost the DIY community. It's sad in a way with the ease of investigation the Internet brings what people won't do.

Can you tell me where you were able to find out they are a good solid company?. Are they listed on some stock exchange, or been evaluated by some accountants, or publicly shown their assets, and liabilities?.

Personally, I use the Innovative since it uses an easy to read bargraph, which is great for AE stuff, and with the data logging makes it cost effective. Not to mention that it is a US company, and in my lil world that means alot. Not to mention what can involve 2 weeks in shipping delays, each way, depending on customs.

614Streets

Welcome to burger King buddy have it your way. You have not said anything that lays credence to the belife that the TE unit does not is not a perfectly good unit.

In fact RBob cant either. Post some links or some actual facts if you know so much. Otherwise spare me the kind words.

When you go to court and make accusations to bring a case ..... its same as that .

Provide your proof of testing. Please. Who can agrue with that.

Ive heard the arguement against TE , In fact I heard people say that about Bill Gates and how he started , I am not getting off topic.


For the whole built in USA argument , check Australias war track record.

x 100000050687

614Streets

If you know so much please RBob , do tell. Well?

Grumpy

Just that this co you suggest is so good is just capitalizing on the efforts of others. If they willing to break an agreement to sell it what good is their word?.
Your the one claiming they're such a good company when in fact all they did was cash in on the work of others.

Who cares about their war record?. They also are following the tactics Hitler did with Germany, in disarming it's citizens.
The US has been too generous in shipping jobs overseas, and it all starts somewhere, and IMO, enough's enough.

So where's your proof to back up your claim about what a good firm it is?. You made a claim. Why spare you the words, is discussion that difficult?.

Like I said the Innovative unit works well, is US made, and isn't a copy of the DIY-WB. It's also easy expandable into doing several other channels of data logging. No contest as far as the co's integrity goes, IMO.

614Streets

I win. You had nothing on TE all along ecept this whole he stole the Idea from some sucker .

I know becasue I have the dam unit buddy. No I cant test it against a lab wb set up. You and RBOB are full of it.

614Streets

BTW just read this little part on your buddies page
http://jubjub.mine.nu/wbparts.html

Yeah lets take a few quotes from this guy.

"Q: Can I buy an assembled meter?

A: Not from me. This is a DIY project. I do not consider myself a skilled electronics guru. If I rated my soldering skills on a scale of 1 to 10, I would place myself at a 3. If I can do it, anyone can. If you're looking for an easy way, buy a commercial unit. Prices are constantly dropping."

Uh ok so the guy says no no please dont use any of this information to profit , but here buy the parts kits from me.

Not an electronics guru huh.

"Q: What are my options for a display?

A: My preference is the LED display. My second choice is datalogging via a notebook computer and a data logger. I recommend ones from http://www.picotech.com or http://www.dataq.com"

Ok that display is abosulutely hideous and useless compared to the TE LED display.

You two are all whiney because some guy started a business and is making a profit , admit it. You lay no credence to your claim that his unit is not up to par. You guys are out of this world. Let me call Judge Mathis.

Like I said I run one , It works , I would buy another.


Your arguements are weak.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

No, they're "all whiney" because a lot of people that put effort, time and their own money in an "open source" project, and then someone took that work and is making a profit off of it, pissing off the people that did have something invested in it and killing the information available in the future.

This would be different if it was his own work or if he "paid for it" (bought the rights…), but he didn't, as far as I know didn't even try.

As far as the accuracy/build quality of the unit, I don't know, I've never seen one in person.

614Streets

So your telling me that despite the fact he is supplying a superior product to the orginal idea , an idea which was never more than that , not a product for sale complete and with legitmatcy , company support for customers(very great customer support best Ive delt with despite being in australia). And offering it all in a top notch unit with display for a great price is somehow a bad thing?

You know I have time to build my own engines and tune them , but I'll be damned if I learn circutry and build my own wideband with parts from radio shack. So what the guy borrowed the Idea and flew with it and is now extremely sucessful?

What does that have to do with slandering the units quality?

Anwser? None.

I guess I now know why Rbob has deleted technical posts of mine in the past.

WHO CAN ARGUE WITH THAT? Nobody.
Test the unit and come crawling back. :lala:

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You are treading on thin ice. I have not slandered the TE unit, and I am not whining about anything, not even of TE's questionable history. What I have said is that you should do 'due diligence' on the company , the designers and the product.

If you can't ask TE the tough questions, and you have no 'circutry' (as you put it) experience, then how can you say the product is superior to other available products?

Remember too that the TE WB hardware design is available for review.

The way I see it is that you can not accept the fact that there are better products available. Much better.

As for the DIY-WB, it is more then an idea. It is an actual product. And it can not be built from Radio Shack parts. The people selling PCBs and parts kits are doing it non-profit, simple as that.

As for deleting your post (yes, one post, not posts as you seem to think), it was non-technical and did not fit the charter of this board.

RBob.

Grumpy

Let me get this straight, you don't have the info to understand circuitry, and you claim his is better, ok, so what are you basing your judgment that's better?.

It not technical when your expressing your opinions as facts.

You on one hand admit to little to no understanding of circuitry, and the say one is better then the other, yep, lots of technical merit in that.

Too bad it's not your work that's been, BORROWED. I'd like to see how you behave when items of your's are BORROWED. It's just a sad state of affairs when someone takes a non-for-profit item, and cashes in on the work of others, not to mention breaking what normal men would understand as a gentlemen's agreement.

But, breaking one's word and borrowing things seems to be acceptable to some poeple if it means saying a penny or two.

BTW, have you shopped, and compared features of it to the Innovative?.

The Innovative does everything the other one does, and when on sale costs even less. Plus if it needs warranty work it just a few days shipping compared to what might take well over a month depending on customs. Not to mention a phone call to CA from anywhere in the states is alot less then one to Australia.

I fail to see any logic in anything you've mentioned so far, btw do you have any info yet to justify your claim about them being a good solid company?. You've made the claim, I just haven't seen the evidence other then your claim.

Grumpy

BTW, do you have any idea about how many hours/weeks/years, now many people, and how many sensors were bought to bring this design to life?.

I find it really find it hard to understand when someone that has put ZERO effort into something, finds it so easy to use the term BORROW. Like he's going to put it back or replace it somehow. Or if you do know how he plans to return what he's borrowed or how he plans on doing that?.

Do you have any idea, about the other DIY projects that died because of his BORROWING the design?. It's been a tragedy, there were some really neat items in the works, that will never see the light of Public Domain, because of him being so Extremely Successful. I guess it all depends on what one calls being Extremely Successful. To me bringing an educational project to life, for the shear enlightenment of others is being Extremely Successful. Living by one's word and argeements is what some folks call being Extremely Successful. Avoiding the temptation of the all mighty penny is to some being Extremely Successful.

In closing since you seem to know so much about him, do you know how he plans on returning what he's borrowed?. Or how he plans to return what he's taken?. Just using your terms and phrases, and asking you a few guestions.

On a technical note, my car runs just fine, and tuning with the DIY-WB was an interesting learning experience. And the Innovative has a nice east to read bargraph, and numeric display. And with using Lockers, another DIY data logger made it even easier to do. At 15 frames a sec, and allowing for 5 additon channels makes it the most cost effective scanner that I know of, for working with the C3 ecms. DIY projects while at times are a slight effort, the learning that goes with them is Priceless.

614Streets

Well isnt that Ironic.


Rbob said the unit was sub par but couldnt explain why. Now your emotions are flowing like a river. I dont care about the politics. I go by facts. I stand behind the unit.

For the record I never said the Innovate was lacking anything in the area of precise a/f reading. It is seriously lacking a decent display gauge.

And no Rbob you deleted two posts where I mentioned the TE unit in the past simply because you dislike the company. You tread on thin ice.

Reread the whole topic and the truth can be seen. I never made allegations of any wb unit on the market being uncapable of correctly reading a/f ratios.
Rather a critque of lack of harware with the Innovate. I Even critqued the TE unit.

Go back and reread it.

Rbob said and I quote
"The TE unit may look nice on the surface, but as they say beauty is only skin deep."

No he said it. Now can he really explain why with technical merit. Ethnics aside , does the TE unit have fault and if so please explain. If it is simply a "hate" of the choices of the people behind TE for reasons you sate as stealing another individuals "work" then let it just be said from you as that.

614Streets

:hail: the penny