89Kicker_IROC-Z

Car has been overheating like crazy over the last few years, and likes to completely die when idling in dead stop traffic after a few minutes.
My temp gauge hasn't worked properly for over 10 years which makes troubleshooting even worse. Tried 3 new sending units, a new dash cluster and then just replacing the gauge inside the cluster to no avail. Still does not read temp.

Bought a champion radiator to see if that would fix the problem. Also picked up a pillar pod and some new autometer gauges with enough wiring to make doc from back to the future confused on the install. Of course the sending unit was the wrong size but included an adapter to make it thread into the head. Sounds good right? Wrong. It doesn't thread in all the way and sticks out to the point that if I plug in the harness connector it will melt on my SLP header. (Why include an adapter with an inch of useless threads?) So once again, I have no coolant temp reading.

The radiator is in now, *fits terrible* and had an extremely hard time threading my trans cooler line into it. Figured everything was good to go and drove the car for the first time in over a year...took it around the block, no problems. Took it out again today and got on it a bit, started to shift the trans manually to get the motor to scream and felt a pop....then it ran normally. Parked the car and within a minute noticed trans fluid all over the driveway. Popped the hood and it looked like an episode of TRUBLOOD, trans fluid was all over my engine bay...all over the underside of the hood. It seems to have squirted out of one of the lines and into the radiator fans and it splashed it everywhere.

Then I touched the intake, piping hot. Touched the valve covers, also boiling hot. Only one fan will run though so its very confusing.

Let it sit for 2 hours and went back and it would still burn your hand if you left your hand on the valve covers for more than a few seconds.

Hosed off the car, let it sit for about 2 hours. Started it and watched it with the radiator cap off...just a few bubbles. Fans wont turn on, killed the engine.

The lower radiator hose is ice cold, the left side of the radiator is also cool to the touch. The upper hose is piping hot and the right side of the radiator will also burn you. WTF? This is with the fan not even turning on whatsoever at idle for 5 minutes. Could the thermostat have gone bad?

The car will also not squirt out the tranny fluid while idling so I cant even figure out which connection is leaking (I guess it needs to be under load driving, etc.)

Any ideas?

1-Champion 3 row radiator
2-Stock dual fans
3-Hypertech 180* stat (installed in 2003)
4-Hypertech low temp fan switch (installed in 2003)

I've put less than 10,000 miles on the car since purchased stock in 01'.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

I was thinking of going Champion til I went over that thread a few weeks ago.

Now this with the trans fittings!!!...

IMO, I would take pics of the rad // trans fittings & send to where ever you got the rad from!
IIRC, the thread size issue was resolved a long time ago. I wonder if you got 1 that you needed adapters from rad to trans lines??

As far as the temp--
Are the hoses in good condition?
Does the lower hose collapse when RPMs raise?
Correct rotation water pump?
Air dam busted // gone?
T-stat could very well be stuck.

Sorry I can't add to the fans issue

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

Replaced radiator for ~$200, did not replace five dollar thermostat?

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

There was a thread not too long ago about the adapter for the temp sender-to-gauge issue.
There is an adapter that fits the sender into the head, and is almost a flush fit.
I don't recall the thread title, maybe search the

Cooling

threads. Wish I could remember!!

itsMikey

my champion doesnt let the car get hot ie never going to overheat although i do burn a considerable amount of gas+ because its not burning at the optimal temp but thats okay..

as for the overheating.. <3

89Kicker_IROC-Z

-Hoses are good
-Lower hose stays cool besides the one time I took it out for 20 mins and my fan did kick on...when I popped the hood everything was hot and trans fluid was everywhere.
-water pump is a reverse style flow kooler i put in around 03'
-air dam is in perfect shape, ready to rock
-t stat was replaced in 03' like I said, its a hyperjunk 180

btw I did a lot of modding in 03, the car has been unchanged since then and driven barely.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

replaced the t stat back in 03 with a hyperjunk long before replacing the entire radiator!

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Took the thermostat off, put it in a pot of boiling water and it opened up. So I know the thermostat is not the issue.

I let the car idle for 10 minutes, and the fans would not turn on. The passenger side fan started to kick over but kept stopping. After a few minutes of idling the car sounds like its running perfect, but the heat coming off of the valve covers/intake/plenum & headers is crazy hot. Smoke from stuff just wanting to melt at this point just scared me to the point of shutting it off.

Could the water pump have gone bad? Its not making any weird noises and its not leaking. Its a flowkooler pump with less than 10,000 miles on it.

Does anyone elses engine bay feel that hot after idling for 10 minutes? I'm talking burning your hands hot if you touch the right side of the radiator or valve covers, heads, etc.

TreeFiddy

Engine too hot to touch when fully warmed up - sure, just like every car I've ever owned. Hot enough to make stuff around it melt - not usually, unless something is sitting directly on the exhaust manifold / headers.

If this has sat for a few years being worked on and never really run to full temp, could be a bit of oil (from spillage, greasy hands etc) on exhaust etc that needs to burn off. A tiny amount can produce a lot of smoke.

What do you classify as overheating - would need to be actually boiling - does it?

89Kicker_IROC-Z

I think what its going to come down to is me finding a way to get this gauge wired in so I can see exactly what is going on temp wise. My version of hot and your version of hot could differ obviously.

It sucks this stupid sending unit is the wrong thread size, and when put into the adapter threads in like a broke dong.




I might have to thread it into the intake because it sticking out that far is going to cause the harness connector to melt on the header...

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

For the fitting in the block, go to this thread--

1/2" NPT sized oem gauge sender

Started by

87350IROC

That is most likely what you need!!
IDK how to link from my iPhone.

PM one of those guys for the part number, but there are pics of it,
pre-install & installed.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

My cylinder head takes the stock 3/8 type fitting.
The autometer sending unit is 1/8.

Looks like he had a 1/2 which is even bigger than stock/AFR heads

I need a sleeve or something to convert a 1/8 NPT to a 3/8 NPT without causing the sending unit to stick out so far it melts from the heat of the header pipe

89Kicker_IROC-Z

http://www.amazon.com/Lead-Free-Fitt.../dp/B003TWP2KO

Thoughts?

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

I appologize for jumping the gun there!! Dang!!

89Kicker_IROC-Z

No not at all, your post made me find that fitting on amazon, what do you think?

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Lol!! I meant

DOH!!

Not Dang!!
{ slaps my own forehead!! } I hate spellcheck!! Lol!!!

If you were offended, please accept my apology!!!

So I was looking in Summit at NPT reducers. They have them, BUT, looks like it would still stick out like your pics show.
I guess if you're good at fabricating, maybe cut the hex head off the bigger one?? I'm just trying to help come up with something!...

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Yeah I saw the Earl's and whatnot around for 6 bucks. They appear to be similair to the autometer reducers, but the autometer reducers threading is JACKED. If you look at my picture you can see the 1/8 threaded into the 3/8 adapter like 2 full turns and stopped. Terrible! I grabbed my other gauge (trans temp, came with the same sending unit and adapters) and guess what? Same thing! They thread in 2 turns and stop. IDK why the heck they would make something this shitty and include it with their product.

The amazon fitting is a flush style slip over bushing and the earls/russels, etc look to to be the same as the autometer style with the nut built into it. I would hope their quality control would be better than autometer, the threading is simply unacceptable.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

IMO, give it a shot!!

{ IDK why I didn't notice that thread, sorry }

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

I **think** threads cut for NPT are not the same size the full length // depth.
They seem to start out just a tad small, then wind up just a tad big.
Take a look at their threads from the side.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

A slight taper is what I mean

Aaron_SK

iTrader: (1)

You cannot judge the depth of any NPT thread until you have applied sealing compound and tightened it fully. You will gain several turns with the tape or dope lubricating the threads.

If the Autometer still isn't threaded deep enough for you buy a face bushing at the local Ace Hardware (plumbing supplies off the internet, guys? Get real! This is America!) or throw a pipe tap in the Autometer bushing and open it up farther.

To be honest with you it wont affect the gauge reading in any way. The gauge is a chunk of brass that absorbs heat and sinks it into a resistor. The bushing is just another chunk of brass. You might slow reaction time slightly as you have increased the size of the sink, but it will work fine.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

Why don't you use a laser temp gun and find what temp.your running at first, before you go ahead and do all that.

Adalaugh

I agree with other members, change the Thermostat first and if still overheating just the same then check the Water Pump. As your car runs a serpentine belt the pump is reverse flow.
Just I case you get the same problem as I did when fitting a new belt to my car I could not get the information on length anywhere, after trying 2500mm the correct length was 2490mm.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Ill try the hardware store I guess!

A what?

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

A infrared thermometer gun,it's a laser light that takes the temperature of anything you point it at,example,a engine block,exhaust manifolds,etc.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

Sometimes it’s called a laser thermometer, because you use the built-in laser to target the surface, but it’s really a non-contact infrared thermometer that measures the electromagnetic radiation coming from that surface. It’s the safest way to measure temperatures in hazardous areas (like automobile engines or other machinery), hard-to-reach places and other areas where a non-contact infrared laser thermometer is the way to go.
Professional-quality, infrared technology at an excellent value
Temperature range: -4° F/-20° C to 968° F/520° C
Accuracy: +3° F/+2° C or 2% of reading
Distance-to-spot ratio: 8 to 1
9 volt DC battery included.
Temperature range: -4°F (-20°C) to 968°F (520°C)
Response time: 500 mSec
Distance to spot accuracy: 8 to 1
Accuracy: +/- 4° below 212° F, +/- 2° above 212° F
Overall dimensions: 7" L x 1-3/4" W x 4-1/2" L at grip
Shipping Weight: 0.55 lb.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Took out the thermostat and could feel the coolant running through both radiator hoses, so the pump and the thermostat are both good.

We let it idle for 15 minutes and the fans would not come on...
I touched the fan switch with a screwdriver and sure as **** it turned on

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Have you checked your timing ??

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Its very funny you said that, because I had a neighbor over a little while ago and we were messing with that switch and got the fans to turn on...and then he said have you checked your timing?

I've always used a buddies so I am just going to buy my own at harbor freight tomorrow.

*I had a fuel pump replaced at a local speed shop a few years ago, and when I got the car back the mechanic told me "your timing was all screwed up, so i fixed that too". So maybe that change is making it run a little hot too.

I'll make sure its at 6* tomorrow.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

http://www.harborfreight.com/automot...ter-96451.html
While your at it get one of these!!!they really come in handy,very inexpensive.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

I'm getting both, they are already on my shopping list for tomorrow.


Anyone know of any type of tape or slip on covers to keep my sending unit wires from burning on my headers? Im about to complete an order from jegs and thats the last thing I need.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Im also starting to think he may have checked the timing with the EST still connected..eek. Not every guy knows this needs to be disconnected when checking it.

1983Chimaera

I would recommend ruling out the trans as the source of the extra heat load. If you have ever overfilled the trans, or if it has excessive slippage, it can create excess heat on the system and overtax the cooling system. As you said you have had fluid issues with the trans, I would at least rule it out as a source of extra heat load.
Other than that, run thru the list;
- Cooling system leak-free, properly pressurizing and "burped" of all air pockets
- Water pump proper rotation, in good working order, no "weeping" or cavitation
- Hoses in good condition with properly sized hose clamps
- Timing correct
- Cooling fan(s) in good working order, no excessive resistance on windings (would indicate weak / worn motor), fan switch(s) working
- Thermostat working properly (already mentioned as working properly)
- Air dam (already mentioned as present)
- Radiator clear of blockages (mentioned as new so unlikely, but description of "ice cold" and "burning hot" areas makes this worth checking)
- Bubbling coolant (indicates possible cracked head or head gasket failure, bubbles are a result of exhaust blowing into the coolant passage)

89Kicker_IROC-Z

The water pump is fine, we can rule that out. It doesn't make any noises or leak etc. I ran it today with no thermostat and both radiator hoses became hot to the touch after 10 minutes of idling. So obviously water is flowing on both ends, thus the pump is working.

The coolant was bubbling a bit when first started, but once the water pump was going it just trickled down the fins. I do not think there is any sort of head gasket damage and I pray to god I am right. This is my third set of gaskets due to head removal over the last few years. I do not want to remove the heads again!

Burning hot on one side and cool on the other was simply due to the pump not flowing because the thermostat had not opened up. When I removed the thermostat completely both ends became equally hot immediately.

My theory at the moment is the car is overheating due to improper timing and a dying fan switch.

I ordered a 160 thermostat, a new 176* fan switch and some other things from jegs tonight.
I have some anti heat shrouding material left over from SLP when I bought my headers about 10 years ago which I am going to wrap around the new fan switch on the pass side, and around the new temp gauge sending unit on the driver side.

After work tomorrow I am going to re-check the timing to at least rule that out compltely or realize it may be one of the reasons the car is getting so hot.

I cannot get the trans fluid spit to happen yet as I think it will only occur under winding up through the gears. Its either due to too much trans fluid in the system or my bottom fitting is not as tight as I thought.

*also the B&M tranny cooler is mounted right in front of my radiator on the bottom left passenger side with 1/2" spacers

89Kicker_IROC-Z

let the testing begin!

Richboll

Good luck! Subscribed. I'd like to see this problem resolved

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Car is @8* BTDC. Thoughts? Comments?

I already had the car off for about 10 minutes and realized I bought that laser thing thing this afternoon.

Valve Covers: 120*
Radiator 100*
Headers 200*

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

The temps don't sound right!!!too cool,exhaust should be in the 375+ range.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

I only ran the car long enough for it to get warmed up and checked the timing, then those temps are approx 10 minutes after.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Me: I have three c2 gauges I just bought, and both came with 1/8 to 3/8 adapters. When I thread them into the adapters they only go in approx 2 turns and leave almost a full half inch of threads! What gives? Why arent these threading all the way flush? Both sending units and adapters to this.

Autometer: Hello Steve,

The senders as well as the adapters use a tapered pipe thread. This pipe thread seals as you tighten it down and is not meant to sit flush like a normal bolt. It is completely normal to have threads still exposed once everything is installed.

Thank you,
Kevin
Tech/Service

...

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

The car was off for 10 mins. It has cooled down.

1983Chimaera

Verify your trans isn't overfilled, or you will damage it fairly quickly.

Also, what kind of heads are you running? Aluminum heads are known for cooling issues, and can develop steam pockets in some instances. I once again suggest a thorough "burping" of the cooling system...With the car off and cold, fill the system to capacity, then put your hand over the hole and squeeze both radiator hoses several times each to push coolant thru the lines and block, checking afterwards that the coolant level hasn't dropped. If it has fill to capacity again and repeat the process. Once full, start the car and continue to alternate "burping" the system in the same way, checking the upper hose for it to become warm and the thermostat to open. Once the thermostat opens you won't be able to hold your hand over the opening for long, but go as long as you can to get every last air bubble out. It's amazing what a difference a small air pocket can make to a cooling system.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

I'm running AFR aluminum cylinder heads. The trans fluid is in the "normal" range on the dipstick when running, so its not overfilled.

I'll look into the burping thing tomorrow.
I picked up:
1)160 thermostat (currently nothing is in, had a 180 but took it out)
2)175 on 166 off fan switch (the one that is damaged is a 200 on 185 off)

I bought that earls 3/8 to 1/8 AP reducer fitting and my temp sending unit fits exactly like the autometer in the earls...two turns, then it stops. WTF I need to make it bigger so it fits snug against the reducer nut instead of sticking out so it doesnt burn on my header.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I think you ment to say iron heads have cooling issues. Aluminum heads ditch heat very quickly.

1983Chimaera

No, I meant aluminum. I'm not referring to the metallurgy of the head material to dissipate heat, just the tendency for some aluminum heads to form steam pockets which negatively affects coolant flow and cooling ability. The only iron head I know that this is an issue with is the reverse flow LT1 head which uses an external steam line to prevent steam pockets from forming in the heads, and is a result of the reverse flow design of the LT1.

The "burping" process is really a must anytime you have opened the cooling system such as you have. Air pockets cause overheating because they don't allow the system to properly pressurize, which keeps the boiling point of the water / coolant lower than it should be. This allows the water / coolant to flash to steam, which is doubly bad - steam is supersaturated with heat already and has no cooling properties, and the water pump cannot pump steam, so you lose cooling circulation. You might as well have an overheated blockage in the system where the steam pocket is, it functions the same way.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

All LT1s have the steam line on the back of the heads, aluminum and steel headed motors.

SBCs aren't really prone to "hot spots" burping issues like say a 302-351 ford.

You must have really delt with some poor quality aluminum heads b4.
I"ve never had a issue w aluminum heads and "hotspots"/ burping issues.
Only iron heads because they hold more heat.

89Kicker_IROC-Z

All I am trying to do at this point is simply get my new coolant temp gauge to show me an accurate reading so I can go from there. This required me to get the autometer sending unit into my cylinder head. *yes I know they can be mounted other places put this is apparently the best spot for an accurate reading*

I had my neighbor across the street lock my earls 3/8 to 1/8 NPT fitting in a vise and start cranking on it. I swear autometer is out to get everyone...

Results are as follows:


It started pretty good, simply cranking on it with a box end wrench...Turn, turn, turn, slip, scrape, turn, slip, turn, SNAP. Nice.






Now I am back at square one with getting this damn sending unit to work inside my cylinder head. Luckily I have another to try this weekend from a different gauge and ordered a replacement for the now broken one from Jegs yesterday. My aluminum earls fitting is f*cked so thats out the window, now its back to using the just as crappy autometer brass 1/8to3/8 adapters.

What a nightmare.

Has anyone else in third gen hot rodding history ever wanted to mount the sending unit(s) VERTICALLY out of the head(s) vs horizontally right into the damn headers?

My daily drivers water pump gasket is taking a crap on me as well and thats even making my blood pressure worse.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Why, yes. Yes, I have. And, did so:

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Go on...

89Kicker_IROC-Z

Where did you get the fitting, just your local hardware store?